Aberdeen delay question
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DB,
I don't pressure anyone to get off the runway.It's only that you can lose vortex spacing having got the correct gap,because the heli landing is so slow.
As ATC what do we then do? Land the light category through the vortex knowing that it was OK as the heli passed the localiser,but on touchdown it's way below what is legal.Send the fixed wing around.Complain to the heli operator,or get bigger gaps for that operator.
Well getting bigger gaps means more holding for the heli,and more moans.Sending fixed wings around dramatically increases radars work load.I have already mentioned it to our management.As for racking in something behind it.Sometimes you are struggling to get a landing clearance with a fixed wing 8 miles behind,when they have to vacate at E2 after 6.00pm on 16.
I don't really know the answer,but to start complaining to the controller about what the delay is when your SVFR is just inviting a phone the watch manager.
I don't pressure anyone to get off the runway.It's only that you can lose vortex spacing having got the correct gap,because the heli landing is so slow.
As ATC what do we then do? Land the light category through the vortex knowing that it was OK as the heli passed the localiser,but on touchdown it's way below what is legal.Send the fixed wing around.Complain to the heli operator,or get bigger gaps for that operator.
Well getting bigger gaps means more holding for the heli,and more moans.Sending fixed wings around dramatically increases radars work load.I have already mentioned it to our management.As for racking in something behind it.Sometimes you are struggling to get a landing clearance with a fixed wing 8 miles behind,when they have to vacate at E2 after 6.00pm on 16.
I don't really know the answer,but to start complaining to the controller about what the delay is when your SVFR is just inviting a phone the watch manager.
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I fully sympathise with "throw a dyce" regards departures. Its stupid that the helicopter operators agree contracts with oil companies to depart at 07:00hrs. I am a current NSC and am sick and tired of apologising to our passengers for the delay at C3 during the 07:00 rush of around a 20 minute period.
Why our contracts departments agree to these terms which give great penalties in late departure compensation is just crazy.
Its time the helicopters companies wielded the big club.
Why our contracts departments agree to these terms which give great penalties in late departure compensation is just crazy.
Its time the helicopters companies wielded the big club.
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just inviting a phone the watch manager
I have been watching this thread with much interest since I last commented. Is the Watch Manager some kind of head teacher in your opinion who has dominion over some pretty experienced helo pilots? I think not, and having spoken to a good many "watch manager" I have found them to be pretty reasonable professional folk just as one would expect.
I take it after all your years at ABZ you haven't risen to this dizzy height. Perhaps you should put yourself forward at the next "promotion board"!
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HELICOMPARITOR,
Thanks for the explanation and yes we do have the options in the CAT A supplement but your are right CHCs philosiphy is to keep it simple and we tend to use one of either two profiles VTOSS = Vy or VTOSS = 55. These two profiles enable us to "shortcut" the performance tables provided we have encompassing critieria of ADSR and ambient T & P parameters, which of course are tailored in ABZ to temperate Northern climatic conditions.
We do always have the option of resolving the solution longhand and I guess if we were to maximise the opportunities without a backtrack we could do this.
You make a good point and there is probably an argument for revisiting the issue formally to create more flexibility. Maybe I will pass this on to our Technical Pilots and see what can be done.
Thanks.
Thanks for the explanation and yes we do have the options in the CAT A supplement but your are right CHCs philosiphy is to keep it simple and we tend to use one of either two profiles VTOSS = Vy or VTOSS = 55. These two profiles enable us to "shortcut" the performance tables provided we have encompassing critieria of ADSR and ambient T & P parameters, which of course are tailored in ABZ to temperate Northern climatic conditions.
We do always have the option of resolving the solution longhand and I guess if we were to maximise the opportunities without a backtrack we could do this.
You make a good point and there is probably an argument for revisiting the issue formally to create more flexibility. Maybe I will pass this on to our Technical Pilots and see what can be done.
Thanks.
DB
Its possibly easier for us since our Flight Operations software spits out the maximum permissable weight at various values of Vtoss after we have typed in the ambient conditions, therefore once we have the load we know which is the lowest Vtoss we can go for, though of course we are encouraged to select a Vtoss that will give a comfortable RoC OEI, rather than one that only gives ~100'/min. As a double-check the aircraft displays the minimum value of Vtoss on the ASI strip as well (unlike the L2 that displays the min level flight OEI speed)
Then its just fig 20 to tell us how much runway we need for the prevailing wind.
HC
Its possibly easier for us since our Flight Operations software spits out the maximum permissable weight at various values of Vtoss after we have typed in the ambient conditions, therefore once we have the load we know which is the lowest Vtoss we can go for, though of course we are encouraged to select a Vtoss that will give a comfortable RoC OEI, rather than one that only gives ~100'/min. As a double-check the aircraft displays the minimum value of Vtoss on the ASI strip as well (unlike the L2 that displays the min level flight OEI speed)
Then its just fig 20 to tell us how much runway we need for the prevailing wind.
HC
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TAD
I have been watching this thread with much interest since I last commented. Is the Watch Manager some kind of head teacher in your opinion who has dominion over some pretty experienced helo pilots? I think not, and having spoken to a good many "watch manager" I have found them to be pretty reasonable professional folk just as one would expect.
I take it after all your years at ABZ you haven't risen to this dizzy height. Perhaps you should put yourself forward at the next "promotion board"!
I have been watching this thread with much interest since I last commented. Is the Watch Manager some kind of head teacher in your opinion who has dominion over some pretty experienced helo pilots? I think not, and having spoken to a good many "watch manager" I have found them to be pretty reasonable professional folk just as one would expect.
I take it after all your years at ABZ you haven't risen to this dizzy height. Perhaps you should put yourself forward at the next "promotion board"!
Perhaps all TAD is saying is that s/he is in catch 22, know they will get complaints if they hold and will get sacked if the loose separation. Hence the call to the Watch Manager is merely a warning to stand by for the complaints.
I think most pretty experienced helicopter pilots flying in and out of Aberdeen know that asking more from an ATCO at busy times means increased controller workload and therefore decreased safety. They would also take more fuel if their experience told them to expect delays.
So, back to the original post...
If I asked to hover on the runway for a hover check, the first question from ATC would be "how long for?". This is because time on the runway is a limited commodity. If the question is unasked /answered, the controller risks a much more serious problem developing if the aircraft hovers for longer than he bargained for.
So it is with inbound delays. Now its the aircraft with the limited commodity (fuel) and it would be a foolish pilot who agreed to an indefinite delay without starting to think about "plan B" etc. Since a heli may arrive at Aberdeen without alternate fuel, that plan B would include landing at Longside or in a field nearby - all good P&J fodder!
If TAD does not like to be questioned on such matters, something is seriously wrong.
So in order to avoid unnecessary radio exchanges, when instructing a heli to hold inbound it would be best to indicate the likely length of the delay. Then everyone is happy and calm (unless its 30 minutes!). If that is not done, you can guarantee that pilots will be getting uncomfortable and the question will not be long in coming.
Perhaps the clue is in the original post - to paraphrase "I am doing something I think right but all the operators' pilots are questioning it" - so either he is the only person with the right idea at Abz, or maybe its the other way round. Some introspection required I suggest!
HC
If I asked to hover on the runway for a hover check, the first question from ATC would be "how long for?". This is because time on the runway is a limited commodity. If the question is unasked /answered, the controller risks a much more serious problem developing if the aircraft hovers for longer than he bargained for.
So it is with inbound delays. Now its the aircraft with the limited commodity (fuel) and it would be a foolish pilot who agreed to an indefinite delay without starting to think about "plan B" etc. Since a heli may arrive at Aberdeen without alternate fuel, that plan B would include landing at Longside or in a field nearby - all good P&J fodder!
If TAD does not like to be questioned on such matters, something is seriously wrong.
So in order to avoid unnecessary radio exchanges, when instructing a heli to hold inbound it would be best to indicate the likely length of the delay. Then everyone is happy and calm (unless its 30 minutes!). If that is not done, you can guarantee that pilots will be getting uncomfortable and the question will not be long in coming.
Perhaps the clue is in the original post - to paraphrase "I am doing something I think right but all the operators' pilots are questioning it" - so either he is the only person with the right idea at Abz, or maybe its the other way round. Some introspection required I suggest!
HC
