Agusta AW139
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As stated in the AMPI, maint man chap4, "retirement lives" section (if I remember correctly).
The penalty is NOT on the TXmission but on the input driveshafts into the TXmission.
Formula is... Flight time for that entire sortie X number of hoist cycles X 2.5 (hoist cycles being down and up as one cycle, weight or no weight does not matter)
TXmission penalty is for sling load (hook) work, don't have the formula at hand.
TC, I believe that I might have met you in Abu Dhabi and had a telephone conversation with you???
Current SAR pilot in AW139..
The penalty is NOT on the TXmission but on the input driveshafts into the TXmission.
Formula is... Flight time for that entire sortie X number of hoist cycles X 2.5 (hoist cycles being down and up as one cycle, weight or no weight does not matter)
TXmission penalty is for sling load (hook) work, don't have the formula at hand.
TC, I believe that I might have met you in Abu Dhabi and had a telephone conversation with you???
Current SAR pilot in AW139..
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Correction
My figures were slightly off.. Below is an exerpt from the MM..
flight time + (2.5 X Hoist cycles) = hours.. is the actual formula
External Hoist Operation
For the parts listed in Table 5 a life penalty must be mandatorily applied whenever an external hoist lift is performed.
The external hoist lift is defined as an unreeling and recovery of the cable with a load attached to the hook, independent of the length of the cable that is deployed/recovered. An unreeling/recovery of the cable with no load on the hook is not considered to be a lift. Any operation where a load is applied for half the operation (i.e. unreeling or recovery) must be considered as one lift.
Increase the flying hour by the specified value for each external hoist lift. The penalty is applicable only to flying hours.
Table 5 External Hoist Lift - Life penalty factor
Ref Part Part number Life penalty factor
RL022 MGB Shaft, Main Rotor 3G6320A01852 2.5
MGB Shaft, Main Rotor 3G6320A01853 2.5
E.g.: MGB shaft, main rotor: Flight time = 2 FH. Number of rescue hoist lifts = 3. Total accumulated FH = 2 + (2.5 x 3) = 9.5 FH.
flight time + (2.5 X Hoist cycles) = hours.. is the actual formula
External Hoist Operation
For the parts listed in Table 5 a life penalty must be mandatorily applied whenever an external hoist lift is performed.
The external hoist lift is defined as an unreeling and recovery of the cable with a load attached to the hook, independent of the length of the cable that is deployed/recovered. An unreeling/recovery of the cable with no load on the hook is not considered to be a lift. Any operation where a load is applied for half the operation (i.e. unreeling or recovery) must be considered as one lift.
Increase the flying hour by the specified value for each external hoist lift. The penalty is applicable only to flying hours.
Table 5 External Hoist Lift - Life penalty factor
Ref Part Part number Life penalty factor
RL022 MGB Shaft, Main Rotor 3G6320A01852 2.5
MGB Shaft, Main Rotor 3G6320A01853 2.5
E.g.: MGB shaft, main rotor: Flight time = 2 FH. Number of rescue hoist lifts = 3. Total accumulated FH = 2 + (2.5 x 3) = 9.5 FH.
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Hoist penalty
C4 a couple of points to note.
1) The item affected by the increase of hours when hoisting ops are carried out is the Main Rotor Mast assembly (part numbers specified are for the mast) as the mast cannot be separated from the main transmission in the field at the moment the transmission will need to be replaced once its LL is reached.
2) Speak with your Agusta rep to confirm but my understanding is that only the flight time spent during the hoisting operation is penalized, not the entire sortie flight time. Therefore it is very important to accurately record and log time spent hoisting.
Cheers
dl
1) The item affected by the increase of hours when hoisting ops are carried out is the Main Rotor Mast assembly (part numbers specified are for the mast) as the mast cannot be separated from the main transmission in the field at the moment the transmission will need to be replaced once its LL is reached.
2) Speak with your Agusta rep to confirm but my understanding is that only the flight time spent during the hoisting operation is penalized, not the entire sortie flight time. Therefore it is very important to accurately record and log time spent hoisting.
Cheers
dl
Thank you gentlemen. It did seem a bit strange that they would take normal flight time into account.
Moving onto the penalty itself. Does this suggest there is a problem with the MGB bearings or the bending moments experienced by the main mast?
Presumably it is similar to the BO105 / EC135 with the MMI's and penalties when you go into the red on those?
Moving onto the penalty itself. Does this suggest there is a problem with the MGB bearings or the bending moments experienced by the main mast?
Presumably it is similar to the BO105 / EC135 with the MMI's and penalties when you go into the red on those?
Can some one tell us all what the life of the Main Rotor Mast Assy. actually is please.
Our current aircraft did 38 lifts earlier this week, in one flight, that will be a hell of a penalty to add to the days flying!
Our current aircraft did 38 lifts earlier this week, in one flight, that will be a hell of a penalty to add to the days flying!
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Drop Lead and AB139engineer,
Can you give the reference you have for the time life penalty during hoisting please. My quote above comes directly from the MM for the 139.
Pino LoCoco (Agusta 139 test pilot) confirmed that the flight time was in fact for the ENTIRE sortie, not just time spent hoisting???
It is now as clear as MUD....
Can you give the reference you have for the time life penalty during hoisting please. My quote above comes directly from the MM for the 139.
Pino LoCoco (Agusta 139 test pilot) confirmed that the flight time was in fact for the ENTIRE sortie, not just time spent hoisting???
It is now as clear as MUD....
E.g.: MGB shaft, main rotor: Flight time = 2 FH. Number of rescue hoist lifts = 3. Total accumulated FH = 2 + (2.5 x 3) = 9.5 FH.
Here if you are flying for 2 hours and just 30 min. in CAT A training you must use the only the 30 min.
The CAT A section is just before the External Hoist so...
Can we assume the specification in CAT A is valid for the external hoist?
Why they didn't write like in CAT A,
"e.g. Main Rotor Blade Assembly: Flight Time SPENT during CAT A Training Operations = 1 FH. Total Accumulated FH = 1 x 2.0 = 2.0 FH"
3D-CAM:
16.000FH or 54000 landings.
pictures of UK SAR 139 anyone?
Regards.
Aser
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As ASER indicated in his last reply, time life for the shafts (MGB Shaft, Main Rotor 3G6320A01852 and MGB Shaft, Main Rotor 3G6320A01853) are 16000 hours and 54000 landings.
With regard to which is used - total sortie hours or winch time:
If you break the formula down, FT + (2.5 x winch cyles)
You will note that the actual penalty is 2.5 x winch cycles, which is added to the total flight time for that sortie. (remember, the total flight time would have counted toward timelife anyway, you are just adding the penalty).
Hope this clarifies the hours counted...
With regard to which is used - total sortie hours or winch time:
If you break the formula down, FT + (2.5 x winch cyles)
You will note that the actual penalty is 2.5 x winch cycles, which is added to the total flight time for that sortie. (remember, the total flight time would have counted toward timelife anyway, you are just adding the penalty).
Hope this clarifies the hours counted...
Aser, you wouldn't be spreading rumours would you??? 
Haven't heard anything. They don't talk much to me anymore unless I scream. Apparently former employees of Agusta aren't worth talking to anymore
On the OEI penalty time. I was trying to tell a former ADA 139 pilot how the Cat A training worked. He thought that the penalty was for time at 102%. No no no says I, that isn't a penaly. the penalty is for Cat A training, in other words, OEI. You want to see the blades cone!! No wonder there is a penalty for it. Perhaps ADA should go back through their logbooks and see if Cat A TRAINING is being entered in for the penalties to be calculated.
Haven't heard anything. They don't talk much to me anymore unless I scream. Apparently former employees of Agusta aren't worth talking to anymore
On the OEI penalty time. I was trying to tell a former ADA 139 pilot how the Cat A training worked. He thought that the penalty was for time at 102%. No no no says I, that isn't a penaly. the penalty is for Cat A training, in other words, OEI. You want to see the blades cone!! No wonder there is a penalty for it. Perhaps ADA should go back through their logbooks and see if Cat A TRAINING is being entered in for the penalties to be calculated.
Here is the Chapter 4 of the EASA version of the AMPI, the FAA version is the same:
CAT. A Training Operations. For the parts listed in Table 3 a life penalty must be mandatorily applied whenever CAT. A Training Operations are performed. Flying hours (FH) spent in CAT. A Training must be multiplied by the specified factor. The penalty is applicable only to flying hours. (e.g.: Main Rotor Blade Assembly: Flight time spent during CAT. A Training Operations = 1 FH. Total accumulated FH = 1 x 2.0 = 2.0 FH).
Table 3 CAT. A Training Operations - Life penalty factor
Ref Part Part number Life penalty factor
RL012 Main Rotor Blade Assembly 3G6210A00131 2.0
RL022 MGB Shaft, Main Rotor 3G6320A01852 1.7
MGB Shaft, Main Rotor 3G6320A01853 1.7
RL031 MGB Rear Bracket 3G6320L00231 1.1
Now, Cat A training is not the use of 102%, it is the use of the OEI training switch. Using the switch changes the displays to indicate one engine out, and also winds back BOTH engines to simulate the power output of one engine. Hence the rotor will droop if you push things, and the blades will cone, a lot!!
Now, I'm trying to think where the definition of CAT A training is, and I think it is in the RFM. I don't have a copy of the latest RFM in front of me right now, but I'll see if I can get an answer for you.
Most 139 operators I've seen are just making an entry in the logbook stating that x minutes were spent CAT A training. The tech records people then apply the penalty factors, and record it on the component logcards
I hope this helps.
Hmm, it won't let me layout the freakin table properly. The penalties are, from the top, 2.0 (blades), 1.7 (MR Shaft), 1.7 (MR Shaft), and 1.1 (MGB Rear Bracket)
Cheers
CAT. A Training Operations. For the parts listed in Table 3 a life penalty must be mandatorily applied whenever CAT. A Training Operations are performed. Flying hours (FH) spent in CAT. A Training must be multiplied by the specified factor. The penalty is applicable only to flying hours. (e.g.: Main Rotor Blade Assembly: Flight time spent during CAT. A Training Operations = 1 FH. Total accumulated FH = 1 x 2.0 = 2.0 FH).
Table 3 CAT. A Training Operations - Life penalty factor
Ref Part Part number Life penalty factor
RL012 Main Rotor Blade Assembly 3G6210A00131 2.0
RL022 MGB Shaft, Main Rotor 3G6320A01852 1.7
MGB Shaft, Main Rotor 3G6320A01853 1.7
RL031 MGB Rear Bracket 3G6320L00231 1.1
Now, Cat A training is not the use of 102%, it is the use of the OEI training switch. Using the switch changes the displays to indicate one engine out, and also winds back BOTH engines to simulate the power output of one engine. Hence the rotor will droop if you push things, and the blades will cone, a lot!!
Now, I'm trying to think where the definition of CAT A training is, and I think it is in the RFM. I don't have a copy of the latest RFM in front of me right now, but I'll see if I can get an answer for you.
Most 139 operators I've seen are just making an entry in the logbook stating that x minutes were spent CAT A training. The tech records people then apply the penalty factors, and record it on the component logcards
I hope this helps.
Hmm, it won't let me layout the freakin table properly. The penalties are, from the top, 2.0 (blades), 1.7 (MR Shaft), 1.7 (MR Shaft), and 1.1 (MGB Rear Bracket)
Cheers
AB139Engineer, I don't think you are correct with your calculation of the hoist penalty. The penalty is not calculated using the TIME you spend hoisting, just the NUMBER of hoists with a load on the cable. Below is the relevant paragraph from Section 4 of the AMPI (EASA):
For the parts listed in Table 5 a life penalty must be mandatorily applied whenever an external hoist lift is performed.
The external hoist lift is defined as an unreeling and recovery of the cable with a load attached to the hook, independent of the length of the cable that is deployed/recovered. An unreeling/recovery of the cable with no load on the hook is not considered to be a lift. Any operation where a load is applied for half the operation (i.e. unreeling or recovery) must be considered as one lift.
Increase the flying hour by the specified value for each external hoist lift. The penalty is applicable only to flying hours.
Table 5 External Hoist Lift - Life penalty factor
Ref Part Part number Life penalty factor
RL022 MGB Shaft, Main Rotor 3G6320A01852 2.5
MGB Shaft, Main Rotor 3G6320A01853 2.5
E.g.: MGB shaft, main rotor: Flight time = 2 FH.
Number of rescue hoist lifts = 3. Total accumulated FH=2+ (2.5 x 3) = 9.5FH.
So what they are saying is that because the example flight did 3 lifts, those 3 lifts must be multiplied by the penalty factor, and then added to the flight time. It is not the flight time that is multiplied by the penalty factor. It is still quite a hit though. The penalty is for the Main Rotor Shaft due to bending stresses from the weight of the person/object on the hoist being so far out to the side. Think of it as a slope landing, kind of
So C4 is correct with his calculations.
For the parts listed in Table 5 a life penalty must be mandatorily applied whenever an external hoist lift is performed.
The external hoist lift is defined as an unreeling and recovery of the cable with a load attached to the hook, independent of the length of the cable that is deployed/recovered. An unreeling/recovery of the cable with no load on the hook is not considered to be a lift. Any operation where a load is applied for half the operation (i.e. unreeling or recovery) must be considered as one lift.
Increase the flying hour by the specified value for each external hoist lift. The penalty is applicable only to flying hours.
Table 5 External Hoist Lift - Life penalty factor
Ref Part Part number Life penalty factor
RL022 MGB Shaft, Main Rotor 3G6320A01852 2.5
MGB Shaft, Main Rotor 3G6320A01853 2.5
E.g.: MGB shaft, main rotor: Flight time = 2 FH.
Number of rescue hoist lifts = 3. Total accumulated FH=2+ (2.5 x 3) = 9.5FH.
So what they are saying is that because the example flight did 3 lifts, those 3 lifts must be multiplied by the penalty factor, and then added to the flight time. It is not the flight time that is multiplied by the penalty factor. It is still quite a hit though. The penalty is for the Main Rotor Shaft due to bending stresses from the weight of the person/object on the hoist being so far out to the side. Think of it as a slope landing, kind of
So C4 is correct with his calculations.
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What's happening with Agusta in Italy now? I'm due to go for 139 training soon, but I've heard a lot of bad stories about the training there, with a shortage of simulator instructors (some of who are considerably less qualified than many of the pilots going there) and poor helicopter instructors. Am I likely to come away having had a good thoro training or am I going to have to do lots of stuff myself that justa ain't covered?
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Yes Nooby you are correct, what I should of emphasised was I was trying to state what it should be, a penalty that only applies for the duration of hoisting but the way Agusta states it it applies for the whole flight until touch down which is totally ridiculous and very heavy penality for the customer to pay, It is so bad I wonder if it is a mistake, I am so happy we do not operate a hoist. The hook has a similar penalty also.