Cobham/Chelton HeliSAS

[EN48]

I have been talking to them for the last 6 months about getting the whole system put in my Eurocopter EC130, but i can't get them to give a price or tell me how long it would take. It looks like a great system and I love the Chelton in my Enstrom. I was hoping to put it in the EC 130 and add the autopilot. I think now, i am going to do the new Garmin G500H and give up on the Heli-SaS...now I have to wait on the darn stc for the Garmin.

Chelton is said to be working on several Eurocopter STC's for HeliSAS. However, judging by the time its taking to get the B407 STC, best not to hold your breath. I think you will like HeliSAS as long as expectations are reasonable. I was also going to go with the Chelton Flight Logic FMS in my 407 as a result of the very positive experience I have had with it in my 480B, but the G500H came along about the time I was configuring the 407, was a much newer design, and was about half the price. Its true the the Chelton system is a full featured, IFR approved FMS (which the G500H is not) but this didnt offset the price difference and the superior synthetic vision of the G500H, especially in a day VFR helicopter. The Garmin STC wait shouldnt be too long. It is my understanding that they are doing a "group" STC for many helicopters and that this is expected by the end of April.

[chucksweet]

I've come to really like the Chelton in my 480. (I didn't get it at first) I really wanted to put it in the 130, but like you, when I saw the G500H, I decided it would be a VERY reasonable compromise. I can't wait to get it installed.

I will miss the simulated ILS approaches and how easy the Chelton is to use etc. The Chelton has been amazing as I have worked on my Commercial and Instrument ticket. Putting an IFR certified Chelton/Cobham system in a single engine, VFR ship is probably not the best investment for me.

Chuck

[G-SASY]

EC130B4 HeliSAS

I was getting excited reading the very knowledgeable discussion regarding SAS, and the HeliSAS system, until I read the last post re installation in my EC130B4.

I spoke to Sagem over a six month period trying to get prices, info on the STCs etc, They were incredibly slow, sometimes two months between replies. An installer in UK has a R44 in pieces, with a half installed Sagem SAS/autopilot/EFIS still waiting on Sagem. Grounded for 6 months!

I am not willing to risk grounding my machine, particulalry as installation requires removing the control rods and sending them to USA to be sawn in half and actuators fitted.

The HeliSAS sounds superior in its simplicity and weight, although it may not be as capable. Given that a single engined helicopter cant be flown IFR in UK anyhoo... I would be happy with the additional safety of the HeliSAS.

Does anyone know if Cobham are seeking an EASA STC? All the press talks about FAA, and they havent replied to my emails...

[Runway101]

As for R44 STC and why it is not being sold so far, see the post in the HeliSAS/R44/Light Helicopter thread:

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/440...ml#post6216082

This was posted by Roger Hoh to the RHC Owners Group in March 2010:

The HeliSAS autopilot and stability augmentation system received STC for installation on the Robinson R44 on Oct 30, 2009 (STC SR02254LA). It is installed on one R44 helicopter, which has a standard airworthiness certificate and it works great.

HeliSAS consists of an attitude-command-attitude-hold SAS that can be engaged from engine start to shutdown. With the SAS engaged, the helicopter maintains level flight with hands off the controls, and has been demonstrated to automatically recover from extreme unusual attitudes. Hands-off hover, takeoffs, and landings have also been demonstrated. HeliSAS will be offered as a SAS-only or full autopilot option. The full autopilot option includes heading hold, altitude hold, GPS and VOR navigation modes, ILS, backcourse, and LNAV/VNAV approach capability.

Unfortunately, HeliSAS is not being sold for installation on the R44 at this time because of liability insurance issues. The problem is that the Robinson Helicopter Company does not carry liability insurance. Therefore other insurer's are unwilling to be "first in line" . Work is in progress to resolve this issue.

Work to achieve approval for HeliSAS as a factory option was halted in April 2009 so that Robinson engineering could focus 100% on R66 certification. It has come to our attention that there is a rumor circulating to the effect work was stopped at the factory because the technology is "not sufficiently mature". This is not the case. HeliSAS has been certified to the latest FAA rules including extensive DO 160F environmental testing (including the new HIRF rule) and the software was certified to the highest available standard (DO 178B Level A). This is the same standard that is used for certification of software for fly-by wire transports (e.g. Airbus).

The market for HeliSAS for R44 helicopters is not known. Any input from members would be very useful to understand the viability of this product for the R44/R66 market.

[G-SASY]

HeliSas

Well you could sell one to this EC130 owner if you got an EASA STC. So far my enquires to Cobham have not received a reply.
Its a great product. Hopefully Cobham will get of the ground and get some STCs in place.

[EN48]

The HeliSAS installation in my B407 was completed by Bell/Edwards yesterday and I participated in the test flying today. First impressions are very positive. There has been additional development work since I flew a prototype more than a year ago which results in better handling qualities. Only negative so far has been an extended delay in obtaining FAA certification, but that is now complete.

At present, the SAS provides a force trim function and the AP loop provides typical functions such as heading hold, alt hold, and nav coupling in both lateral and vertical modes. I have been told that further development is underway that will provide a trim capability via a coolie hat switch on the cyclic.

[chucksweet]

very cool..thanks for the report.
I heard over the weekend that an STC became available to install it in my EC 130. I have my avionics shop checking into it.

Chuck

[Ian Corrigible]

Confirmed, now certified for the EC130 and AS350 B2/B3 via a partnership between Cobham and Metro Aviation.

I/C

[birrddog]

EN48, all you need now is the G1K upgrade

[GeorgeMandes]

I flew this auto pilot in a Bell 407 with G1000, back in April, and it reminded me of the Honeywell auto pilot in the G1000 fixed wing aircraft prior to the Garmin auto pilot/flight director. It controls the aircraft reasonably well, but is barely integrated.

If Garmin develops a FD/AP for the 407 G1000 installation, similar to their fixed wing auto pilot/flight director available in the Mustang/Caravan and other single engine aircraft, the HeliSAS will become a distant memory, just as the Chelton EFIS system has mostly become with the availability of G500H and G1000 in rotorcraft.

[EN48]

but is barely integrated.

It is very similar to simple, "low cost" airplane autopilots, and seems well suited to a VFR only helicopter (virtually all single engine helicopters at present). The only other autopilot certified for the B407 AFAIK is the SAGEM at about 3X the cost. Garmin has an excellent digital autopilot for airplanes and I continue to hear rumors about it being adapted to helicopters, but we could grow old waiting for this. Its easy to knock the Chelton Flight Logic FMS but remember that this was available 10 years before the G500H (which is not an FMS, does not have an integrated GPS sensor, and is not IFR certified). After flying with the G500H for almost a year, I still prefer the Chelton even though it is considerably more expensive than the G500H. And, I am still dealing with bugs in the G500H software, some of which are still not resolved and will require additional fixes. In talking to Garmin yesterday, they told me that some of these could take "2-3 years" to resolve. I have also flown the G1000 in the B407 and while most impressive, it has yet to be delivered to a helicopter customer (estimated late this year) and will undoubtedly have its own maturation cycle in a helicopter application. Unlike airframes, avionics are a moving target and most exciting new avionics look like antiques in 5-7 years no matter who makes them!

[EN48]

EN48, all you need now is the G1K upgrade

Yes, this would be great but the G1K is so far offered only with the purchase of a new helicopter. Bell has told me that it will not be available for retrofit to existing B407s. For someone other than Bell to obtain an STC for the G1000 in the 407 would seem to be a daunting task. Besides, the G1K is old news - I'm thinking G3K!

[500e]

EN48

And, I am still dealing with bugs in the G500H software, some of which are still not resolved and will require additional fixes. In talking to Garmin yesterday, they told me that some of these could take "2-3 years" to resolve." (If ever)
In the next paragraph you say,
"avionics are a moving target and most exciting new avionics look like antiques in 5-7 years no matter who makes them"
I totally agree regarding the moving target but we are paying large amounts of cash for a product, that has known bugs, is it not time that the manufacturers were made to address these as a matter of urgency rather than in their own good time ? you have paid for a product that could be at least half way through its useful life by the time they bother to sort problems out.
In our industry they then turn to the other excuse, it is old technology the new equipment will be available soon! (with a new set of bugs)

[GeorgeMandes]

G1000 in the 407 is far more than fixed wing G1000 dropped into a rotorcraft, and there are many rotorcraft specific features that make the installation light years ahead of anything else ever put in a VFR helicopter.

[mckpave]

And, I am still dealing with bugs in the G500H software, some of which are still not resolved and will require additional fixes. In talking to Garmin yesterday, they told me that some of these could take "2-3 years" to resolve

.

Can you elaborate on the problems that you're having? I'm doing some research on the various systems and could use some background, thanks.

[EN48]

Can you elaborate on the problems that you're having?

Let me start with a short answer. Go to the link below to see Service Alerts for Garmin avionics. By reading through these you will be able to get a general idea of whats going on. Also, you will need to consider your equipment configuration to determine which of these apply. My B407 has G500H (and its various subsystems), GTS 800, GTX 330ES, GNS 530AW, and GDL 69A, so several of these apply. This setup is advertised as supporting ADS-B In/Out but I have been told not to hold my breath for this.

Garmin Service Alerts link: Garmin: Service Alerts

PM me if you want more details.

[EN48]

many rotorcraft specific features that make the installation light years ahead of anything else ever put in a VFR helicopter.

Absolutely! This is precedent setting for light turbine helos and will likely set the course for most manufacturers. I have recently reviewed the avionics capability of the B429 and IMHO the G1000H functionality in the B407 makes the 429 suite look primitive by comparison (except for the autopilot). However, all of the issues associated with being an early adopter seem to apply. Even though the airframe and avionics have been reasonably well proven separately, this is a complex integration and will certainly have teething problems in the early going. Sevice, parts and training may be issues as there will be few of these ships in the field for several years (assuming a production rate of about 50 per year - currently about 100 B407s per year, about half of which will be GX model with G1000). I have talked to my shop about this and they arent inclined to come up to speed on this until they see how the market develops. So, there is likely to be a plethora of tradeoffs for the early adopters. Doesnt mean one shouldnt do it, but a generous dose of patience may be needed.

[EN48]

we are paying large amounts of cash for a product, that has known bugs

,

500e,

Agree with all your points. Apparently we are willing to part with large amounts of cash to get the improved functionalty even if we have to live with the bugs. Shouldnt happen but it does. And, we arent alone; graphic example: Windows OS.

[500e]

Why do we as consumers put up with it, It is a reason I dont use MS opperating system other than when I have to.

[GeorgeMandes]

I spent some time in the G1000 Caravan sim at FlightSafety today, using only the Garmin synthetic vision depiction of the runway to make dead stick approaches and landings to a 100 foot ceiling, by placing the flight path marker over the approach end of the runway, just as we use a spot on the windshield to make a precision autorotation. This technology is amazing and makes the Collins Pro Line 21 avionics I flew, the three previous days in the sim, seem antique by comparison. Whether on the Garmin G500H or G1000, synthetic vision will offer incredible capability to those flying at night, and/or in low or mountainous conditions.