MD 600 for loadlifting
here, here, I'll drink to that; the 500 is sexy looking sweet LITTLE old lady but a complicated dinosaur to maintain. That is why the 350 is now by far the more preferred option for both work horse & PAX hauling. 
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Of course a B1,B2,B3 will "outperform" a 500 for the most part on the same job cause it will lift more and had more seats, can cary more fuel etc...
but I think Remote hooks point is that given a proportionate job, say lifting 75% of the normal weight the machine is capable of the 500 is faster just cause you can see better and its more manoeuvrable.
Sure an experienced bag/drill mover can be quick in an Astar, but the same guy will be quicker in the 500 assumig the weight your lifting is proportionate.....
Besides....8 hours a day on the line in an Astar always has me saying "dammyneckhurts"
but I think Remote hooks point is that given a proportionate job, say lifting 75% of the normal weight the machine is capable of the 500 is faster just cause you can see better and its more manoeuvrable.
Sure an experienced bag/drill mover can be quick in an Astar, but the same guy will be quicker in the 500 assumig the weight your lifting is proportionate.....
Besides....8 hours a day on the line in an Astar always has me saying "dammyneckhurts"
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i used to fly 8's in a 500/530 and i found it to be just as uncomfortable. even worse when you get three across the front which is an absolutely rediculous arrangement.
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MD 600 related, today someone sent me a video of a Customs and Border Patrol 600 making a very hard landing on a practice 180 auto in CA. There is an NTSB on this from October, as the ship was damaged. If that video isn't around, I will see how I can link it.
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Of course a B1,B2,B3 will "outperform" a 500 for the most part on the same job cause it will lift more and had more seats, can cary more fuel etc...
but I think Remote hooks point is that given a proportionate job, say lifting 75% of the normal weight the machine is capable of the 500 is faster just cause you can see better and its more manoeuvrable.
Sure an experienced bag/drill mover can be quick in an Astar, but the same guy will be quicker in the 500 assumig the weight your lifting is proportionate.....
Besides....8 hours a day on the line in an Astar always has me saying "dammyneckhurts"
but I think Remote hooks point is that given a proportionate job, say lifting 75% of the normal weight the machine is capable of the 500 is faster just cause you can see better and its more manoeuvrable.
Sure an experienced bag/drill mover can be quick in an Astar, but the same guy will be quicker in the 500 assumig the weight your lifting is proportionate.....
Besides....8 hours a day on the line in an Astar always has me saying "dammyneckhurts"
From a production/precision long line pilot, there is just no way you can go as fast with an Astar as you can with a 500 if terms of moving the hook around. Maneuverability and vision are unparalleled - this is one of the reasons you don't see us using Astars for shake blocking.... and it doesn't come any more intense that flying blocks for those of you who've never had the pleasure.
Is an Astar an all-round better ship? Of course it is, but we're talking about flying the line here.
RH
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RH,
bull$hit! i have not been on a job in years that a 500 would be able to compete with an astar in terms of efficiency. your argument is meaningless if you consider the large jobs that the clients i work for now (100 square miles or more sometimes at altitude too). how is it possible when an astar can carry heavier loads (read: more stuff)? an experienced astar driver can fly a longline pretty much just as well in an astar especially of you remove the doors, but then how would i know? i have only 2300 hrs of 500/530 time and 3000 hr+ of astar time doing the same types of work. most of that time is with a line.
maybe the shake blockers like the 500 because you can land it pretty much anywhere, but there has to be a reason why fewer and fewer operators are using the 500/530 and nobody uses the 600.
btw, i can read perfectly well and so can everyone else here so you stop lording that over us
FP
bull$hit! i have not been on a job in years that a 500 would be able to compete with an astar in terms of efficiency. your argument is meaningless if you consider the large jobs that the clients i work for now (100 square miles or more sometimes at altitude too). how is it possible when an astar can carry heavier loads (read: more stuff)? an experienced astar driver can fly a longline pretty much just as well in an astar especially of you remove the doors, but then how would i know? i have only 2300 hrs of 500/530 time and 3000 hr+ of astar time doing the same types of work. most of that time is with a line.
maybe the shake blockers like the 500 because you can land it pretty much anywhere, but there has to be a reason why fewer and fewer operators are using the 500/530 and nobody uses the 600.
btw, i can read perfectly well and so can everyone else here so you stop lording that over us
FP
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Are you mentally impaired? Or just phonetically challenged?
I AM SAYING THAT WRANGLING A HOOK WITH A 500 IS WAY FASTER/EASIER THAN IT IS WITH AN ASTAR. Full stop.
I am not talking about load weights, efficiency over time, cost per hour, number of pax, pounds moved per liter burned, dollars per square inch of rotor blade, or anything else for that matter. READ THE BLOODY POSTS YOU HALFWIT.
I'm startled some of you graduated high school. See you in another year, what a forum.
RH
I AM SAYING THAT WRANGLING A HOOK WITH A 500 IS WAY FASTER/EASIER THAN IT IS WITH AN ASTAR. Full stop.
I am not talking about load weights, efficiency over time, cost per hour, number of pax, pounds moved per liter burned, dollars per square inch of rotor blade, or anything else for that matter. READ THE BLOODY POSTS YOU HALFWIT.
I'm startled some of you graduated high school. See you in another year, what a forum.
RH
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well i see that argueing something so subjective with you is pointless even though i whole heartedly disagree.
anyway, as the original post was about the 600, we should all calm down.
perhaps you might be more at home at verticalmag.com/forums or even justhelicopters.com where outbursts and name calling from people such as yourself is more welcome.
i'm sure you will be welcome back when you learn to stop shouting.
bye now,
FP
anyway, as the original post was about the 600, we should all calm down.
perhaps you might be more at home at verticalmag.com/forums or even justhelicopters.com where outbursts and name calling from people such as yourself is more welcome.
i'm sure you will be welcome back when you learn to stop shouting.
bye now,
FP
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600 /902
I see the 600 is a NOTAR based machine.
How does the 902 compare to the 600. Do a lot of people use the 902 for loadlifting?
I've seen a picture with a left hand mounted mirror, and the pilot sitting in the left hand seat. Is that standard practice?
How does the NOTAR perform loadlifting when you are MAUW etc?
I'd appreciate any views from people who have used a 600 / 902 ...
Cheers
Delta
How does the 902 compare to the 600. Do a lot of people use the 902 for loadlifting?
I've seen a picture with a left hand mounted mirror, and the pilot sitting in the left hand seat. Is that standard practice?
How does the NOTAR perform loadlifting when you are MAUW etc?
I'd appreciate any views from people who have used a 600 / 902 ...
Cheers
Delta
rh,
Whatever makes you happy. (of course your 500 is the best machine to whip the empty hook around in, but what's the point with that?? It's the load that counts!!) The original discussion was what to use for lifting when the 500 couldn't do the job, and the gentleman was asking for the 600's suitability.
Delta,
You can check this list: AeroBoek Index which list all MD's made(and some other types). Browse through it and see how many of the respective machines you ask about is used for lifting.
FP,
Couldn't agree more
Whatever makes you happy. (of course your 500 is the best machine to whip the empty hook around in, but what's the point with that?? It's the load that counts!!) The original discussion was what to use for lifting when the 500 couldn't do the job, and the gentleman was asking for the 600's suitability.
Delta,
You can check this list: AeroBoek Index which list all MD's made(and some other types). Browse through it and see how many of the respective machines you ask about is used for lifting.
FP,
Couldn't agree more
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Nubian: Thanks for that. I checked the AeroBoek.
I found two 902 used in a similar role. One is a SAR fit, with winch and the other used for Harbour Pilot operations (since crashed and written off).
I can't find any used for "UTI" or utility work, and none for Offshore roles recorded here.
Hmmm. Why is that?
I found two 902 used in a similar role. One is a SAR fit, with winch and the other used for Harbour Pilot operations (since crashed and written off).
I can't find any used for "UTI" or utility work, and none for Offshore roles recorded here.
Hmmm. Why is that?
Last edited by DeltaNg; 21st Nov 2009 at 08:38. Reason: addition of posters name
Thread Starter
Hey guys calm down here, Nubian is quite right ! Can we get back to the point of what I was asking ! FP I know the 500 is not as good as a squirrel in most departments. Looking at the spec of a 600 it would appear to be a reasonable lifter. As I currently operate 500's I was wondering if the 600 would be any good. Yes I know a lot of people dont like the machine but i actually wanted to know if anyone out there had actually used one rather than rumour control ( no pun intended). Lots of folk dont like a 500, I rather do as it suits my operation and I dont find them expensive to run. Never had a problem with a head as everyone seems to say. Last overhauled one has done just over 500 hours and we havent changed any bearings yet, probably got a couple of pitch links nearing their wear limit but she is still tracked great up to 135kts so cant be that bad yet.
For those who have proffered advice thanks, Nubian as well I know where you are coming from.
For those who have proffered advice thanks, Nubian as well I know where you are coming from.
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Well I have never done any longlining in a 600 - but I do have about 700hrs normal time in one, and in my opinion , if you require to fly slow and out of trim (which I guess is a lot ?) it would be rubbish - It hates being flown out of trim , has a nasty habit of tucking its nose if flown out of trim at about 20 knots , and you would be working your feet on the pedals like a tapdancer on speed ! (Anywere between 10 -40 kts is were you go from Notar for antitorque to the rear vertical fins , both of which work as rudders unless YSAS has been fitted, when one is controlled by the ysas actuator and one by the pedals)
Dont get me wrong I love the 600, if you want to get up and get going at 140 kts , it is really smooth , beats a squirrel in terms of real life cruise speed , and the ride is silky smooth (especially compared with the squirrel) - as long as it has been tracked properly ! It will not carry as many people in as much comfort , and has no luggage space - squirrel wins that one . But the less time you spend between 0-40 kts the better - quite why the police and border patrol bought the 600 for that role it would be awful !! Must have been a good salesman ! It has a few tricks to catch you out, but once you know them it is no problem - but I wouldnt rate it for longlining even if I have never done it
That type of flying does not suit it.
HB
I
Dont get me wrong I love the 600, if you want to get up and get going at 140 kts , it is really smooth , beats a squirrel in terms of real life cruise speed , and the ride is silky smooth (especially compared with the squirrel) - as long as it has been tracked properly ! It will not carry as many people in as much comfort , and has no luggage space - squirrel wins that one . But the less time you spend between 0-40 kts the better - quite why the police and border patrol bought the 600 for that role it would be awful !! Must have been a good salesman ! It has a few tricks to catch you out, but once you know them it is no problem - but I wouldnt rate it for longlining even if I have never done it
That type of flying does not suit it.HB
I
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Interesting points...
Is the 902 any better between 0-40 knots or does it have the same characteristics as the 600? I often undersling unstables loads between points less than a mile apart, so the whole time I am 0-40 knots. Quite often knarly and turbulent too. Any thoughts??
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Delta Ng, if i may politely inquire as to why you are so interested in just one manufacturer filling the need? for the money that you would spend on a 900/902, i would imagine that you could pick up a 407 or a b3. these would certainly be cheaper to operate and i'd expect that they would lift more.
i could be wrong about the weight thing but here in canada VIH had/has an EC135 which will lift about the same as a 350BA. it would be hard to get a client to pony up the $4000+ per hour for a machine that can only do so much. i believe the 135 is for sale.
Hughes500/Delta Ng, if you like that way the 500 flies then a 407 might be more up your alley.
just curious (and glad this thread has returned to normal!),
FP
i could be wrong about the weight thing but here in canada VIH had/has an EC135 which will lift about the same as a 350BA. it would be hard to get a client to pony up the $4000+ per hour for a machine that can only do so much. i believe the 135 is for sale.
Hughes500/Delta Ng, if you like that way the 500 flies then a 407 might be more up your alley.
just curious (and glad this thread has returned to normal!),
FP
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If you are comfortable and experienced in flying 500's I can appreciate why you would want to stick with them, they are second to none for their utility applications.Maintenance is not the issue that they seem to be labled with either. My choice would be to go for a 530 FF,there was a very informative artical in vertical magazine a short time ago,looked ideal for a hook machine. With regard to Kg's on the hook, they rate them in the class of the 407. I have flown a 407 on water bombing ops, with a 50 ft line & bucket, great machine, but I would walk past it for a 530.
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902
I don't have a choice - it's already been chosen over a 135 by powers above 
It's a ship based lifting contract with a lot of unstable deck work, therefore I was wondering how she'll cope ...
It's a ship based lifting contract with a lot of unstable deck work, therefore I was wondering how she'll cope ...
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Hello everybody,
Me too I'm interested in the MD ships for external load.
I'm flying actually Lama, B3 and Koala, and in my country (Switzerland) if you want to enter the market, you should be able to lift off with at least 1'000 kg at the hook.
MD has the NOTAR which is very quite so that is definitely THE difference.
I believe that you may ask to many pilots how and why the y prefer a determinate model; the answers would be as many as the number of pilots.
Finally if you aren't so lucky to own your ship, you are committed to perform your best regardless from the type flown.
Actually for me the most exciting and amazing one is the Koala, but I was asking to Fuchs if there is a chance to have the 900 for a cheaper price in order to perform some logging tests!
Me too I'm interested in the MD ships for external load.
I'm flying actually Lama, B3 and Koala, and in my country (Switzerland) if you want to enter the market, you should be able to lift off with at least 1'000 kg at the hook.
MD has the NOTAR which is very quite so that is definitely THE difference.
I believe that you may ask to many pilots how and why the y prefer a determinate model; the answers would be as many as the number of pilots.
Finally if you aren't so lucky to own your ship, you are committed to perform your best regardless from the type flown.
Actually for me the most exciting and amazing one is the Koala, but I was asking to Fuchs if there is a chance to have the 900 for a cheaper price in order to perform some logging tests!
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Dear Delta NG (B2 pilot isn't?)
I don't have such experience like the most participant on this forum
, but I'm proud of my about 3'000 hrs flown in a country where high density altitude conditions are usual
.
Of course I cannot fly mirror, but only vertical ref
I still have more experience on B2 and B3 door removed and 120 /180 ft longline, against the poor 40 hrs on the Koala.
But if the company where I'm flying for had more money, I would push it to sell our Lama and make a BIG investment in a AW 119 Koala Enhanced!!!
They are a lot of reason because nobody tried to fly a Koala in aerial work:
Who have such lot of money to invest where the minute price is marketed by B3 owner?
Who have enough experience to say that this ship will survive some season doing logging ("my" Lama has actually more than 21'000 hrs with the original aiframe)
Who would renounce to the minimum safety requirement of an helmet because simply it doesn't fit in the ship?
Everybody would like to drive an Italian Ferrari in Miami to pick up long legged girls, but who would use this car to deliver food and equipments in the more remote Yukon area?
I was able to fly my very first logging mission after some 20' intro
If you will have the chance to fly it, do it.
It's worth
I don't have such experience like the most participant on this forum
, but I'm proud of my about 3'000 hrs flown in a country where high density altitude conditions are usual.Of course I cannot fly mirror, but only vertical ref
I still have more experience on B2 and B3 door removed and 120 /180 ft longline, against the poor 40 hrs on the Koala.
But if the company where I'm flying for had more money, I would push it to sell our Lama and make a BIG investment in a AW 119 Koala Enhanced!!!
They are a lot of reason because nobody tried to fly a Koala in aerial work:
Who have such lot of money to invest where the minute price is marketed by B3 owner?
Who have enough experience to say that this ship will survive some season doing logging ("my" Lama has actually more than 21'000 hrs with the original aiframe
)Who would renounce to the minimum safety requirement of an helmet because simply it doesn't fit in the ship?
Everybody would like to drive an Italian Ferrari in Miami to pick up long legged girls, but who would use this car to deliver food and equipments in the more remote Yukon area?
I was able to fly my very first logging mission after some 20' intro
If you will have the chance to fly it, do it.
It's worth