Police Civilianisation of air support
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This is now wildly off topic but I may as well add a couple of observations.
1. Paarmo. You are clearly a bitter and resentful ex-observer who has been rightfully tenured from your post. Your comments are clearly intended to stir.
2 PAN. It is none of your business what the West Midlands Police do or dont do. Each Police service runs its own affairs according to the needs of the local community. The West Midlands Police are leaders in British Police aviation and have been at the forefront of it long before the tired PAN publication came into being. Whatever decision has been made by the Force has been made for the right reasons...end of.
HnH
1. Paarmo. You are clearly a bitter and resentful ex-observer who has been rightfully tenured from your post. Your comments are clearly intended to stir.
2 PAN. It is none of your business what the West Midlands Police do or dont do. Each Police service runs its own affairs according to the needs of the local community. The West Midlands Police are leaders in British Police aviation and have been at the forefront of it long before the tired PAN publication came into being. Whatever decision has been made by the Force has been made for the right reasons...end of.
HnH
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Straying slightly off topic again, but I need to answer....
Immobilisers are making car crime worse? I can't believe I have just read that.
PAARMO, Immobilisers have definitely made it HARDER to steal a car, without a doubt. Unfortunately in your world, the criminal says "Ah, too difficult" and goes home. In my REAL world, the criminal says "I am still having that car, so how do I get it?". This means he needs the keys........... Think about it.
So when I say worse, I mean that the severity of a car theft now depends on how much resistance an owner decides to put up. Some give up the keys straight away, some are already dead................. Worse
Immobilisers are making car crime worse? I can't believe I have just read that.
PAARMO, Immobilisers have definitely made it HARDER to steal a car, without a doubt. Unfortunately in your world, the criminal says "Ah, too difficult" and goes home. In my REAL world, the criminal says "I am still having that car, so how do I get it?". This means he needs the keys........... Think about it.
So when I say worse, I mean that the severity of a car theft now depends on how much resistance an owner decides to put up. Some give up the keys straight away, some are already dead................. Worse
Tightgit
I work at the first unit to achieve the Police Air Operators Certificate.
I see your
and I raise it 
Thread Starter
Sorry missing from the parade... but I think I have caught up now.... [yes I know 'light blue touchpaper and retire....' thats a common ruse]
The item about West Yorkshire's aircraft being the 'busiest in the UK and with only one aircraft a 902' was pretty standard stuff issued by West Yorks .... it appeared in the local papers but probably only got global via PAN and some of the aero wires. The only thing I added was to do the sums to 'prove' the statement against the high time EC135 and expand the story. Press offices do sometimes get themselves in a muddle.
I probably take a bit of an exception to huntnhound and his assertion that the original thread is none of the business of PAN. I beg to quarrel with that. What the 'police' choose to do is indeed their choice but it has been under the scrutiny of the citizen for nearly 200 years and if I am anything I am now a taxpayer and YOU, like me in the past, are very much under scrutiny. Ask those poor officers in the G20 camera views. If in the end what the 'police' do is right fair enough but we 'the people' actually have the right to ask the questions - even if they are crass.
If PAN is 'tired' fine, but I guess you read it to make that judgement.
To be pedantic PAN was born before the WMP operation started.
The item about West Yorkshire's aircraft being the 'busiest in the UK and with only one aircraft a 902' was pretty standard stuff issued by West Yorks .... it appeared in the local papers but probably only got global via PAN and some of the aero wires. The only thing I added was to do the sums to 'prove' the statement against the high time EC135 and expand the story. Press offices do sometimes get themselves in a muddle.
I probably take a bit of an exception to huntnhound and his assertion that the original thread is none of the business of PAN. I beg to quarrel with that. What the 'police' choose to do is indeed their choice but it has been under the scrutiny of the citizen for nearly 200 years and if I am anything I am now a taxpayer and YOU, like me in the past, are very much under scrutiny. Ask those poor officers in the G20 camera views. If in the end what the 'police' do is right fair enough but we 'the people' actually have the right to ask the questions - even if they are crass.
If PAN is 'tired' fine, but I guess you read it to make that judgement.
To be pedantic PAN was born before the WMP operation started.
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I am sure the residents of the West Midlands will be heartened to learn that ratepayers in Essex are contributing towards their running costs
Ok Ok ....The West Midlands police were the first Police Force to be awarded the POAC. All others followed. Furthermore they have operated more aircraft types than anyone else.
PAN.......... Try charging for it and see how much money you make
Hnh
Ok Ok ....The West Midlands police were the first Police Force to be awarded the POAC. All others followed. Furthermore they have operated more aircraft types than anyone else.
PAN.......... Try charging for it and see how much money you make
Hnh
Thread Starter
Huntnhound... you really do need to research your statements. West Midlands has not flown the most aircraft types.... somewhere I sadly wrote all of them down before launching my quill .... pen... typewriter etc.
Even allowing for the Chipmunk, Rapide, PA23 Apache, Sioux, Navajo, Golden Eagle ..... of yesteryear the list is very much shorter than many many others.
The issue of a PAOC does not in any way reflect first in the field, if that were the case the Met would undoubtedly have been the first, not number 20, Devon & Cornwall probably the second rather than 17. Its all about who coralled the paperwork first and knowing many of the people involved at the time 'tomorrow' really was soon enough for most of them.
And.... just take a little peek over your shoulder.....
I do not actually spend my time reading the job ads on the West Midlands Police web site. I received a request from someone very close to you to go to that page and [specifically] put it on Pprune.
As for the 'price' of PAN. That actually fits in perfectly with the Business Plan and has done from day 1. When you get there .... and I got there .... like me you will have assessed [researched!] your former colleagues with their [generally] sealed shut wallets and you will make the same decision. If it was a US scenario and not a UK one that decision would have been quite different. That is why the ALEA business plan works perfectly in the US but, much to their exasperation, does not work in the UK. Are you a member? It costs pennies ....
I guess not.
Even allowing for the Chipmunk, Rapide, PA23 Apache, Sioux, Navajo, Golden Eagle ..... of yesteryear the list is very much shorter than many many others.
The issue of a PAOC does not in any way reflect first in the field, if that were the case the Met would undoubtedly have been the first, not number 20, Devon & Cornwall probably the second rather than 17. Its all about who coralled the paperwork first and knowing many of the people involved at the time 'tomorrow' really was soon enough for most of them.
And.... just take a little peek over your shoulder.....
I do not actually spend my time reading the job ads on the West Midlands Police web site. I received a request from someone very close to you to go to that page and [specifically] put it on Pprune.As for the 'price' of PAN. That actually fits in perfectly with the Business Plan and has done from day 1. When you get there .... and I got there .... like me you will have assessed [researched!] your former colleagues with their [generally] sealed shut wallets and you will make the same decision. If it was a US scenario and not a UK one that decision would have been quite different. That is why the ALEA business plan works perfectly in the US but, much to their exasperation, does not work in the UK. Are you a member? It costs pennies ....
I guess not.
Last edited by PANews; 1st May 2009 at 08:53. Reason: typo
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As no one would tell me about this air worthiness certificate or whatever it is called , I have done some research.
Civilians train the Police as air observers.
Civilians check that the Police are operating safely and correctly in accordance with their licence.
Civilians drive the aircraft.
Civilians maintain the aircraft.
Civilians direct the aircraft to jobs.
Civilians co ordinate the ground response.
You were all once civilians.
You will all become civilians once again.
Yet you are resistant to civilians sitting alongside you and doing an observers job.
I think that you should have a long hard look at your prejudices and at least think about civilians as human beings as you are yourselves.You are not supermen, but highly trained Police Officers who should be policing and not flying.
Civilians train the Police as air observers.
Civilians check that the Police are operating safely and correctly in accordance with their licence.
Civilians drive the aircraft.
Civilians maintain the aircraft.
Civilians direct the aircraft to jobs.
Civilians co ordinate the ground response.
You were all once civilians.
You will all become civilians once again.
Yet you are resistant to civilians sitting alongside you and doing an observers job.
I think that you should have a long hard look at your prejudices and at least think about civilians as human beings as you are yourselves.You are not supermen, but highly trained Police Officers who should be policing and not flying.
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paarmo, if you have done some research why are you rabitting on about an "air worthiness certificate or whatever it is called"?
In answer to your statements:
Civilians do not train our observers!
I take it the 'checkers' you refer to are the CAA, if so you can have that one.
Yes, I am a civilian (with 24yrs military experience behind me).
Yes, civilians do maintain the aircraft (though ours is ex mil).
Our civilian radio operators make us aware of the jobs, the decision to go on them is made by the Police members of the crew from a tactical point of view and finally the pilot from a safety/aircraft point of view.
Actually, the civilians tend to get in the way a lot of the time (from a tactical point of view) because they lack the understanding of what is required.
Yes I was a civilian once but, having joined and served in a uniformed, disciplined organisation I do not think like a civilian or react like one so even if I no longer have the uniform I will never be a 'civilian' again compared to someone who has not been through the same life path as myself.
One of the reasons that Army pilots provide such a good aviation service to the ground troops is because a great many of them spent their early years doing the jobs of the troops that they support. In fact, when I first went aviating it was a pre requisit (what can you bring to the party?) to getting on the course.
And before you use the arguement of me being ex mil and doing the job as a civvi to justify your approach, CRAB@DAAVN had it right in that that approach for Observers would be used as the thin end of the wedge and soon the 'ex' qualification would be dropped in the name of money saving and not for increasing or maintaining efficiency!
In answer to your statements:
Civilians do not train our observers!
I take it the 'checkers' you refer to are the CAA, if so you can have that one.
Yes, I am a civilian (with 24yrs military experience behind me).
Yes, civilians do maintain the aircraft (though ours is ex mil).
Our civilian radio operators make us aware of the jobs, the decision to go on them is made by the Police members of the crew from a tactical point of view and finally the pilot from a safety/aircraft point of view.
Actually, the civilians tend to get in the way a lot of the time (from a tactical point of view) because they lack the understanding of what is required.
Yes I was a civilian once but, having joined and served in a uniformed, disciplined organisation I do not think like a civilian or react like one so even if I no longer have the uniform I will never be a 'civilian' again compared to someone who has not been through the same life path as myself.
One of the reasons that Army pilots provide such a good aviation service to the ground troops is because a great many of them spent their early years doing the jobs of the troops that they support. In fact, when I first went aviating it was a pre requisit (what can you bring to the party?) to getting on the course.
And before you use the arguement of me being ex mil and doing the job as a civvi to justify your approach, CRAB@DAAVN had it right in that that approach for Observers would be used as the thin end of the wedge and soon the 'ex' qualification would be dropped in the name of money saving and not for increasing or maintaining efficiency!
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PAARMO,
I'm with Annoythemouse on this.
I've got twenty four years experience of Beat work, Traffic and Firearms, so when I speak to Police officers on the ground I know what their difficulties are because I've been there, I know what they can and can't do because I've been there. I don't waste airtime by talking drivel and asking them to do things I know are wrong/impossible. Find me a non ex Police air observer who has that background and I'll gladly buy you and them a drink and admit I am wrong on this one.
As regards inflating civilian wages, I don't think so, staff wages are calculated on many things, technical knowledge and skill being just two of the pertinent ones here. Many forces, my own incuded are going back to police officers in what were civilian roles for exactly the same reasons I've posted previously on this thread.
I'm with Annoythemouse on this.
I've got twenty four years experience of Beat work, Traffic and Firearms, so when I speak to Police officers on the ground I know what their difficulties are because I've been there, I know what they can and can't do because I've been there. I don't waste airtime by talking drivel and asking them to do things I know are wrong/impossible. Find me a non ex Police air observer who has that background and I'll gladly buy you and them a drink and admit I am wrong on this one.
As regards inflating civilian wages, I don't think so, staff wages are calculated on many things, technical knowledge and skill being just two of the pertinent ones here. Many forces, my own incuded are going back to police officers in what were civilian roles for exactly the same reasons I've posted previously on this thread.
I Know I shouldn't but:
Paarmo, I believe you are referring to the Police Air Operations Certificate.
In our unit,
Civilians train the Police as air observers. No. Police Officers do.
Civilians check that the Police are operating safely and correctly in accordance with their licence. Correct if you mean the CAA Flight Ops Inspectors and ours was formerly a Police Pilot.
Civilians drive the aircraft. Correct, but in our unit, all ex mil because they all have thousands of hours of “Operational” experience and are used to working with and for the ground units that they support.
Civilians maintain the aircraft. Correct, but our engineer cut his teeth in the mil and has an understanding of “Operational requirements”.
Civilians direct the aircraft to jobs. Wrong. Civilians request on behalf of the police officers on the ground. Police officers decide whether the task is accepted or not. Once the task has been accepted it is generally useful if they don’t get involved unless asked for.
Civilians co ordinate the ground response. Wrong. That is done between the ground commander and the Police Observers.
You were all once civilians. Correct.
You will all become civilians once again. Correct, I already am – but I still think in an “Operational” way when I am doing the job.
Yet you are resistant to civilians sitting alongside you and doing an observers job. Wrong. I regularly operate with a “Civilian” Observer. But, prior to that he had been a Police Observer for 10 years and didn’t need to be trained as one. Prior to that he had 20 years of pounding the beat in the same area he now patrols from the air. Given enough peanuts we could train a monkey to do the job. The problem is we don’t have anywhere near enough peanuts. A 2 week course is barely enough to teach someone any more than the basics of being a police observer and how to operate the equipment. If you have to teach them to think like a police officer the course would drag on for an unacceptable length of time.
A police officer in a helicopter, with all the available role equipment, is a police officer with a greater range of tools in his toolbox than those on the ground with which to detect and deter crime, search for the missing, the absconded and the hiding. Using the knowledge and experience that they gained whilst “Bobbies on the beat”, chasing crims through estates and gardens and knowing the places that they will hide is what makes the Air Support Team so effective.
Annoythemouse and pieboy are spot on. Listen to those in the know. Your research was not thorough enough.
Paarmo, I believe you are referring to the Police Air Operations Certificate.
In our unit,
Civilians train the Police as air observers. No. Police Officers do.
Civilians check that the Police are operating safely and correctly in accordance with their licence. Correct if you mean the CAA Flight Ops Inspectors and ours was formerly a Police Pilot.
Civilians drive the aircraft. Correct, but in our unit, all ex mil because they all have thousands of hours of “Operational” experience and are used to working with and for the ground units that they support.
Civilians maintain the aircraft. Correct, but our engineer cut his teeth in the mil and has an understanding of “Operational requirements”.
Civilians direct the aircraft to jobs. Wrong. Civilians request on behalf of the police officers on the ground. Police officers decide whether the task is accepted or not. Once the task has been accepted it is generally useful if they don’t get involved unless asked for.
Civilians co ordinate the ground response. Wrong. That is done between the ground commander and the Police Observers.
You were all once civilians. Correct.
You will all become civilians once again. Correct, I already am – but I still think in an “Operational” way when I am doing the job.
Yet you are resistant to civilians sitting alongside you and doing an observers job. Wrong. I regularly operate with a “Civilian” Observer. But, prior to that he had been a Police Observer for 10 years and didn’t need to be trained as one. Prior to that he had 20 years of pounding the beat in the same area he now patrols from the air. Given enough peanuts we could train a monkey to do the job. The problem is we don’t have anywhere near enough peanuts. A 2 week course is barely enough to teach someone any more than the basics of being a police observer and how to operate the equipment. If you have to teach them to think like a police officer the course would drag on for an unacceptable length of time.
A police officer in a helicopter, with all the available role equipment, is a police officer with a greater range of tools in his toolbox than those on the ground with which to detect and deter crime, search for the missing, the absconded and the hiding. Using the knowledge and experience that they gained whilst “Bobbies on the beat”, chasing crims through estates and gardens and knowing the places that they will hide is what makes the Air Support Team so effective.
Annoythemouse and pieboy are spot on. Listen to those in the know. Your research was not thorough enough.
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Lots of indignation but very little dispute over my observations.
We train our own observers!!!!...unless you have a secret research and development arm which designs and manufactures the equipment on the aircraft I think you will find that you were originally trained on this equipment by civilians.
Civilians request the air support unit but Police Officers decide whether the job is in the remit...this would be so even if a Police Officer requested a job and at the end of the day it is down to the civilian driving the aircraft to accept it depending on various things such as weather and serviceability of the aircraft.
Civilians do not coordinate the ground response....Unless you have real time access to the force command and control system I think you will find that they do in most cases even though the control room supervisor is a Police Officer.
Originally it was asked whether a civilian could do the job and it was greeted with cries of derision yet Fortyodd2 sits with a civilian in his crew and appears very happy with the situation.It is not clear but it would appear that Fortyodd 2 is also a civilian doing an observer's job.
Anonythemouse seems to think that he is not a civilian. Try getting in to your old Forces Base sir and see what happens.
Not so much game set and match as scoring the winning goal in extra time at Wembley.
We train our own observers!!!!...unless you have a secret research and development arm which designs and manufactures the equipment on the aircraft I think you will find that you were originally trained on this equipment by civilians.
Civilians request the air support unit but Police Officers decide whether the job is in the remit...this would be so even if a Police Officer requested a job and at the end of the day it is down to the civilian driving the aircraft to accept it depending on various things such as weather and serviceability of the aircraft.
Civilians do not coordinate the ground response....Unless you have real time access to the force command and control system I think you will find that they do in most cases even though the control room supervisor is a Police Officer.
Originally it was asked whether a civilian could do the job and it was greeted with cries of derision yet Fortyodd2 sits with a civilian in his crew and appears very happy with the situation.It is not clear but it would appear that Fortyodd 2 is also a civilian doing an observer's job.
Anonythemouse seems to think that he is not a civilian. Try getting in to your old Forces Base sir and see what happens.
Not so much game set and match as scoring the winning goal in extra time at Wembley.
"It would appear that Fortyodd 2 is also a civilian doing an observer's job". Wrong again!!! check my profile.
"secret research and development arm" - that would be what used to be called PSDB. Where do you think the manufacturers get all their equipment changes/mods/enhancements and user input from?
"real time access to command and control" - We have real time access to the job by looking out of the window. Command & Control doesn't even get close.
"secret research and development arm" - that would be what used to be called PSDB. Where do you think the manufacturers get all their equipment changes/mods/enhancements and user input from?
"real time access to command and control" - We have real time access to the job by looking out of the window. Command & Control doesn't even get close.
Last edited by Fortyodd2; 3rd May 2009 at 08:28.