Heli ditch North Sea G-REDL: NOT condolences
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I'd be interested in people's thoughts on something that occurred to me yesterday afternoon when watching the Sky coverage.
There are regularly a number of oil rig support flights in the air at any given time. Families and colleagues are aware of the flight numbers their loved ones/friends are using.
At no time in the first couple of hours did Sky give either a flight number or departure/arrival point for the downed aircraft. Worse, when it did give specifics, it only mentioned Bond and, later, BP.
Surely giving a flight number and a departure/arrival point would remove worry from dozens of people especially those, like me, hundreds of miles from the scene.
My son in law, after years on the rigs, is now shore based but has to take ad hoc short trips for various purposes to a variety of rigs and regularly flies on the Bond Super Pumas.
With airliner crashes the information is "out", sometimes within minutes of the first report and whilst this no consolation for friends and families involved it removes worry and doubt from the majority - and presumably reduces the load on calls to the emergency contact number which was up within an hour of the first report.
There would be an outcry if an aircraft of a major airline went down and nothing other than the type and operator was broadcast for an extended period.
There are regularly a number of oil rig support flights in the air at any given time. Families and colleagues are aware of the flight numbers their loved ones/friends are using.
At no time in the first couple of hours did Sky give either a flight number or departure/arrival point for the downed aircraft. Worse, when it did give specifics, it only mentioned Bond and, later, BP.
Surely giving a flight number and a departure/arrival point would remove worry from dozens of people especially those, like me, hundreds of miles from the scene.
My son in law, after years on the rigs, is now shore based but has to take ad hoc short trips for various purposes to a variety of rigs and regularly flies on the Bond Super Pumas.
With airliner crashes the information is "out", sometimes within minutes of the first report and whilst this no consolation for friends and families involved it removes worry and doubt from the majority - and presumably reduces the load on calls to the emergency contact number which was up within an hour of the first report.
There would be an outcry if an aircraft of a major airline went down and nothing other than the type and operator was broadcast for an extended period.
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There are regularly a number of oil rig support flights in the air at any given time. Families and colleagues are aware of the flight numbers their loved ones/friends are using.
At no time in the first couple of hours did Sky give either a flight number or departure/arrival point for the downed aircraft. Worse, when it did give specifics, it only mentioned Bond and, later, BP.
Surely giving a flight number and a departure/arrival point would remove worry from dozens of people especially those, like me, hundreds of miles from the scene.
At no time in the first couple of hours did Sky give either a flight number or departure/arrival point for the downed aircraft. Worse, when it did give specifics, it only mentioned Bond and, later, BP.
Surely giving a flight number and a departure/arrival point would remove worry from dozens of people especially those, like me, hundreds of miles from the scene.
We are never aware of the flight numbers - we are given a check-in time to be at the heliport by & simply get onto the helicopter we are directed to.
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BALLSOUT,
Chinook did not have UK Type Certification removed as a result of the Sumburgh accident - the particular dash of front main rotor gearbox that caused the accident (-6 if I remember) was removed from service and reverted to previous dash.
Basic airworthiness standards for all UK aircraft are now (from Sept 2003) the responsibility of EASA in Cologne, not CAA, and many AAIB recommendations are now directed to EASA as the resposible Authority. EASA is also in the process of taking responsibility for other areas of aviation regulation from National Authorities as we speak.
So, we look forward to good cooperation between AAIB, the local Authority (CAA) and EASA in identifying and playing their part in solving the cause of this truly tragic event.
Chinook did not have UK Type Certification removed as a result of the Sumburgh accident - the particular dash of front main rotor gearbox that caused the accident (-6 if I remember) was removed from service and reverted to previous dash.
Basic airworthiness standards for all UK aircraft are now (from Sept 2003) the responsibility of EASA in Cologne, not CAA, and many AAIB recommendations are now directed to EASA as the resposible Authority. EASA is also in the process of taking responsibility for other areas of aviation regulation from National Authorities as we speak.
So, we look forward to good cooperation between AAIB, the local Authority (CAA) and EASA in identifying and playing their part in solving the cause of this truly tragic event.
The media (whilst often considered the enemy and certainly the subject of many a derogatory comment on here) actually have quite a good working relationship with the likes of Grampian Police and the MCA.
I know we all think they scour PPrune looking for evidence to fill their articles, but the fact is they knew the information regarding this disaster (and the basic facts of the Etap accident) long before it was published. The flight numbers, destination, origin and number of immediate fatalities was known pretty much within minutes of the accident, but the press held onto that information as the authorities asked them to.
How they chose to report the information they are allowed to release is a different matter and certainly open to debate !! Particularly with respect to the Etap accident which I thought was covered very badly - I have to say, with respect to this latest tragedy, they so far have managed to remain professional and long may it last.
I know we all think they scour PPrune looking for evidence to fill their articles, but the fact is they knew the information regarding this disaster (and the basic facts of the Etap accident) long before it was published. The flight numbers, destination, origin and number of immediate fatalities was known pretty much within minutes of the accident, but the press held onto that information as the authorities asked them to.
How they chose to report the information they are allowed to release is a different matter and certainly open to debate !! Particularly with respect to the Etap accident which I thought was covered very badly - I have to say, with respect to this latest tragedy, they so far have managed to remain professional and long may it last.
Two of the five losses were CFIT accidents....and can not blame the aircraft for that as they were perfectly sound aircraft until the pilots flew the thing into the water.
So you are dealing with three fatal accidents.
How many million flight hours is that for the fleet?
As to the passengers deciding to fly or not fly a particular type, model, build of aircraft.....then that is their choice.
If I was the travel coordinator I would book them passage on a work boat to and from the rig in lieu of flying them. Please to remember one set of workers cannot leave until their replacement arrives and the ride home is on their time off.
Overnight you would hear the complaining about the helicopter disappear and the whining would be about having to ride the boat out and be faced with a crane basket ride up to the rig.
Education programs about the safety of flying and the immediate release of as much information as can be done would go along way towards improving this perceived fear of particular aircraft being used. Perhaps providing tours of the helicopter maintenance shops would give them a better idea of how our industry works.
For someone to actually state there was no indication of a mechanical problem....challenges credulity!
Especially when there were folks who saw the aircraft hit the water in the manner it did. Perhaps he should have said he had no certain information about the cause at this tiime and would be releasing a statement as soon as there was enough to be able to provide a reliable summary.
So you are dealing with three fatal accidents.
How many million flight hours is that for the fleet?
As to the passengers deciding to fly or not fly a particular type, model, build of aircraft.....then that is their choice.
If I was the travel coordinator I would book them passage on a work boat to and from the rig in lieu of flying them. Please to remember one set of workers cannot leave until their replacement arrives and the ride home is on their time off.
Overnight you would hear the complaining about the helicopter disappear and the whining would be about having to ride the boat out and be faced with a crane basket ride up to the rig.
Education programs about the safety of flying and the immediate release of as much information as can be done would go along way towards improving this perceived fear of particular aircraft being used. Perhaps providing tours of the helicopter maintenance shops would give them a better idea of how our industry works.
For someone to actually state there was no indication of a mechanical problem....challenges credulity!
Especially when there were folks who saw the aircraft hit the water in the manner it did. Perhaps he should have said he had no certain information about the cause at this tiime and would be releasing a statement as soon as there was enough to be able to provide a reliable summary.
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When Bolko refers to cougar helicopters, I'm assuming he's refering to the military variant of the Super Puma MkII, which is called a Cougar helicopter, and is operated in large numbers by numerous armed forces!
The MayDay call may have come from a vessel which witnessed the crash and was picked up by the coastguard who in turn scrambled all SAR assets available. My point here is that at this stage absolutely nothing is confirmed, and absolutely nothing will be confirmed for some time until preliminary results from the AAIB are published. Given that the wreckage still remains at the bottom of the sea and people are still very upset by the accident, at least wait until you have something concrete to talk about.
I was extremely frustrated by the utter cr@p that was bandied around over the ETAP accident! I know this is a rumour network but it is also meant for professional pilots and people working in avaitaion everywhere. We all know that the media know nothing and talk absolute p!$h, but hey, its there job to report, educate, speculate and talk p!$h as they are reporting a story to the general public who are largely ignorant of aviation matters. They don't need encouragement from people here who should know better!
Given the strict security checks surrounding every single person who travels offshore and the relatively small numbers who travel offshore (when compared to general commercial fixed wing transport), through the Vantage system, it is very easy and quick for the oil companies and police to contact the families involved directly. Vantage is a computer system which records a lot of information about each person travelling offshore, and is used by all oil and helicopter companies.Though its little comfort for relatives of others offshore at the time, no news is good news! The offshore bongo drums sound very rapidly and once news spread most people would contact home fairly sharpish to reassure relatives. My friends did.
The MayDay call may have come from a vessel which witnessed the crash and was picked up by the coastguard who in turn scrambled all SAR assets available. My point here is that at this stage absolutely nothing is confirmed, and absolutely nothing will be confirmed for some time until preliminary results from the AAIB are published. Given that the wreckage still remains at the bottom of the sea and people are still very upset by the accident, at least wait until you have something concrete to talk about.
I was extremely frustrated by the utter cr@p that was bandied around over the ETAP accident! I know this is a rumour network but it is also meant for professional pilots and people working in avaitaion everywhere. We all know that the media know nothing and talk absolute p!$h, but hey, its there job to report, educate, speculate and talk p!$h as they are reporting a story to the general public who are largely ignorant of aviation matters. They don't need encouragement from people here who should know better!
Given the strict security checks surrounding every single person who travels offshore and the relatively small numbers who travel offshore (when compared to general commercial fixed wing transport), through the Vantage system, it is very easy and quick for the oil companies and police to contact the families involved directly. Vantage is a computer system which records a lot of information about each person travelling offshore, and is used by all oil and helicopter companies.Though its little comfort for relatives of others offshore at the time, no news is good news! The offshore bongo drums sound very rapidly and once news spread most people would contact home fairly sharpish to reassure relatives. My friends did.
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quichemech: Well Honey was referring to bolkow's post here which suggested that the Cougar accident involved a Super Puma. Of the four incidents bolkow cited, only two actually involved an AS332L2.
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We are never aware of the flight numbers - we are given a check-in time to be at the heliport by & simply get onto the helicopter we are directed to.
Vantage is a computer system which records a lot of information about each person travelling offshore, and is used by all oil and helicopter companies.Though its little comfort for relatives of others offshore at the time, no news is good news! The offshore bongo drums sound very rapidly and once news spread most people would contact home fairly sharpish to reassure relatives. My friends did.
Compare the way the media handle casualties in the armed forces. When they occur, the media give the location and the unit, invariably followed by "relatives have been made aware", i.e. the news only gets into the public domain after the relatives have been told..
An accident to an oil rig support helicopter is far more immediate and public to people in the UK than a specific loss of life in Afghanistan and without agreement from the media, a news blackout until relatives were informed would be difficult..
No-one should have to wait for Vantage to operate (which can take some time) or to have to operate on a "no news is good news" basis so I can see no reason for the flight details being witheld for so long.
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Press and Puma down.
I mentioned the media conspiracy theory that seems to permeate many of the threads on PPRUNE with a journalist/pilot friend of mine who works for a well known aviation journal (no names, no pack drill). He pointed out that any reputable journalist would have done exactly what he did reference this Puma down event, namely ring the Grampian police and the UK Coast Guard's press offices directly for the immediate facts of this ditching/crash. As a PPRUNE tyro I am impressed by the depth of knowledge available amongst the contributors and the good moderation that is evident here but still wonder at those who see bad intent at every corner. Am I being naive?
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From Sasless:
As to the passengers deciding to fly or not fly a particular type, model, build of aircraft.....then that is their choice.
If I was the travel coordinator I would book them passage on a work boat to and from the rig in lieu of flying them. Please to remember one set of workers cannot leave until their replacement arrives and the ride home is on their time off.
Overnight you would hear the complaining about the helicopter disappear and the whining would be about having to ride the boat out and be faced with a crane basket ride up to the rig.
ss:
If bullying pax aboard an aircraft they have concerns about is your idea of the way forward, many people would be glad you're not a travel co-ordinator! Sharing of information, and education, are the keys to pax confidence.
Shearwater - I've spent many years as travel co-ordinator/radio op. offshore. As information technology became more widely available, many of the guys would ask me their flight number the night before going home, to help those arranging to collect them from the heliport, work out which train or fixed wing they were likely to catch, etc etc. I know that's only relevant to inbound travel, but it's a fact none the less.
Through my job, I got to know many L2 pilots & winch crew, ground staff et al, along with hundreds of offshore workers. Of the pilots who became friends more than acquaintances, I'm still wary of making contact for information, as you just don't know if you're placing a call that would be entirely inappropriate & unwelcome. Living where I do, there is no North Sea grapevine. I would sooner eat my own arm than trust Sky News for accurate information. I hope there is understanding that, for many of us, this forum is one of the best places to find relevant info about people we care deeply about.
As to the passengers deciding to fly or not fly a particular type, model, build of aircraft.....then that is their choice.
If I was the travel coordinator I would book them passage on a work boat to and from the rig in lieu of flying them. Please to remember one set of workers cannot leave until their replacement arrives and the ride home is on their time off.
Overnight you would hear the complaining about the helicopter disappear and the whining would be about having to ride the boat out and be faced with a crane basket ride up to the rig.
ss:
If bullying pax aboard an aircraft they have concerns about is your idea of the way forward, many people would be glad you're not a travel co-ordinator! Sharing of information, and education, are the keys to pax confidence.
Shearwater - I've spent many years as travel co-ordinator/radio op. offshore. As information technology became more widely available, many of the guys would ask me their flight number the night before going home, to help those arranging to collect them from the heliport, work out which train or fixed wing they were likely to catch, etc etc. I know that's only relevant to inbound travel, but it's a fact none the less.
Through my job, I got to know many L2 pilots & winch crew, ground staff et al, along with hundreds of offshore workers. Of the pilots who became friends more than acquaintances, I'm still wary of making contact for information, as you just don't know if you're placing a call that would be entirely inappropriate & unwelcome. Living where I do, there is no North Sea grapevine. I would sooner eat my own arm than trust Sky News for accurate information. I hope there is understanding that, for many of us, this forum is one of the best places to find relevant info about people we care deeply about.
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If bullying pax aboard an aircraft they have concerns about is your idea of the way forward, many people would be glad you're not a travel co-ordinator! Sharing of information, and education, are the keys to pax confidence.
Like SAS, I'm sure that the moaning would transfer from helicopters to boats and basket rides.
After any incident or major accident, the helicopter operator concerned normally sends out a team to the installation(s) directly connected with the situation and give a formal briefing about what happened and what is being done, has been done, about it in order to prevent recurrence. An open question session follows.
However, it is very difficult to share information with anybody until you have something tangible and substantiated to share.
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Just a thought.
I watched this tragedy unfold yesterday in the media and on this site.
My thoughts and prayers are with the families and friends of those involved and I will post this on the condolences site.
I know journalists are apparently the bane of the earth and, generally, I would agree. However, yesterday they had this well covered from the minute the aircraft went down. They were wll informed and well briefed by the major incident teams. There was nothing on this site that was of any real use that wasn't already in the public domain - vis the number of links to Sky, BBC and STV bulletins.
I would really question theh value of the chatter that follows every accident these days - particularly on this Professional Pilot's forum. I know this has been raised already and the post removed.
16 souls were lost yesterday afternoon. Spare a thought for those involved. Let the dust settle before you start your own ad hoc and, sometimes ill informed, speculation as to cause. The work 'vapid' was used yesterday by someone and until yesterday I didn't even know there was such a word - but, the writer may have been correct.
The facts so far.
Mayday - as yet unconfirmed whether this came from A/C or oil support vessel.
Rescue - was launched immediately by RIB.
The A/C appears to have broken up on contact with the sea. This does not appear to be a controlled ditching. It may not have been survivable according to eye witnesses.
Super Puma - Bond have temp grounded all Puma as a precuation. The accident earlier this year appears to be wholly unrelated save that it involved same operator and same type. This is not surpising when you consider number of flights flown per day out of ABZand the Numbers of Puma in use.
In the past I have lost some good friends and colleagues in similar circumstances and whilst knowing what happened and when is helpful in the long run I would like to see thread slike this moderated to remove much of the speculative, repetitive and fundamentally useless chit chat.
No doubt this post will also be removed!
I watched this tragedy unfold yesterday in the media and on this site.
My thoughts and prayers are with the families and friends of those involved and I will post this on the condolences site.
I know journalists are apparently the bane of the earth and, generally, I would agree. However, yesterday they had this well covered from the minute the aircraft went down. They were wll informed and well briefed by the major incident teams. There was nothing on this site that was of any real use that wasn't already in the public domain - vis the number of links to Sky, BBC and STV bulletins.
I would really question theh value of the chatter that follows every accident these days - particularly on this Professional Pilot's forum. I know this has been raised already and the post removed.
16 souls were lost yesterday afternoon. Spare a thought for those involved. Let the dust settle before you start your own ad hoc and, sometimes ill informed, speculation as to cause. The work 'vapid' was used yesterday by someone and until yesterday I didn't even know there was such a word - but, the writer may have been correct.
The facts so far.
Mayday - as yet unconfirmed whether this came from A/C or oil support vessel.
Rescue - was launched immediately by RIB.
The A/C appears to have broken up on contact with the sea. This does not appear to be a controlled ditching. It may not have been survivable according to eye witnesses.
Super Puma - Bond have temp grounded all Puma as a precuation. The accident earlier this year appears to be wholly unrelated save that it involved same operator and same type. This is not surpising when you consider number of flights flown per day out of ABZand the Numbers of Puma in use.
In the past I have lost some good friends and colleagues in similar circumstances and whilst knowing what happened and when is helpful in the long run I would like to see thread slike this moderated to remove much of the speculative, repetitive and fundamentally useless chit chat.
No doubt this post will also be removed!
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Flyer43
Sasless's post seemed cold & indifferent to the views of his pax.
"I'm a bit worried about flying in these L2's now"
"OK, lose 2 days of your leave & take a boat"
hardly a masterpiece of diplomacy! I'm not suggesting for a second that a flight be delayed every time someone gets nervous, I am suggesting that maybe a better flow of information would help alleviate those nerves.
Ref debriefings after incidents: I recall one flight I was on suffering a cracked windscreen & having to complete it's journey at 80kts. We were indeed debriefed at the heliport, and most would agree it was time & effort well spent. In that case, I think informing the pax involved was enough.
Another occassion, one of the flights I admin'ed, an S61, had a tail rotor incident as it arrived over the runway at ABZ. (about 10 years ago?)
Pax were debriefed on arrival, but a lot of the guys offshore had reservations about flying in 61's after that & there was little done to reassure them.
They may be called bears & tigers, but they're not cattle! I hope there will be clear & full disclosure when the incident has been fully investigated.
Sasless's post seemed cold & indifferent to the views of his pax.
"I'm a bit worried about flying in these L2's now"
"OK, lose 2 days of your leave & take a boat"
hardly a masterpiece of diplomacy! I'm not suggesting for a second that a flight be delayed every time someone gets nervous, I am suggesting that maybe a better flow of information would help alleviate those nerves.
Ref debriefings after incidents: I recall one flight I was on suffering a cracked windscreen & having to complete it's journey at 80kts. We were indeed debriefed at the heliport, and most would agree it was time & effort well spent. In that case, I think informing the pax involved was enough.
Another occassion, one of the flights I admin'ed, an S61, had a tail rotor incident as it arrived over the runway at ABZ. (about 10 years ago?)
Pax were debriefed on arrival, but a lot of the guys offshore had reservations about flying in 61's after that & there was little done to reassure them.
They may be called bears & tigers, but they're not cattle! I hope there will be clear & full disclosure when the incident has been fully investigated.
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Names now released
For those of you like myself who were conerned, the names have now been released.
Current News & Appeals
OMB
Current News & Appeals
OMB
Names of Crew in my post on the condolences thread, can't work out how to link to from the Mac though.
Paul Burnham and Richard Menzies were the crew may they RIP.
Paul Burnham and Richard Menzies were the crew may they RIP.