Super Puma down central North Sea Feb 2009
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There are many good points on this thread and on the Automation versus Mandraulics thread.
For me, T4 Risen has hit the nail on the head, VMC low level handling at night in poor weather while subconsciously not wanting to lose sight of a rig can be very difficult. Rates of turn at a slower speed, single point visual clues, downwind turning into wind, landing lights on in poor or patchy vis etc etc can all contribute massively to spatial disorientation.
While I am a huge supporter of automation, albeit with some of the provisos outlined by 212man in the other thread, I just don't think that we can treat helicopters like fixed wing, at least in the last stages of a landing offshore.
Somewhere during the latter stages of the approach, the two diverge completely and its this area for which we have to devise procedures and techniques to mitigate risks.
Night shuttles will always have to retain a greater proportion of manual flying and obviously, ARA style approaches won't be possible after the first landing.
While we must continue progress, automate and reduce risk, I also think that lessons can be learned from history. Many thousands of safe night offshore landings have been made over the years in aircraft which were ill equipped by today's standards. Those of us who have many hundreds of offshore night shuttle landings did not survive by luck alone, and remember, in the 1980s, on the SNS, some of it was single pilot, even at night.
When we had two pilots, on a dark hazy night with little wind and limited vis, we used to brief each approach, talk each other through it and monitor the PF like a hawk calling parameters until we came over the deck. 20+ landings could be a long and tiring night but it was routine.
While I am not advocating going back to the old days, lessons can be learned for we were neither stupid nor poorly trained. I was fortunate enough to have some of the best and most tailored line training from pilots with enormous local knowledge and night flying experience. Although there are cost, training and logistic implications, maybe NNS pilots could spend some time on the SNS annually to help increase familiarity with night offshore landings. Recognition and taking mitigating action is, after all, half the battle.
Its just a thought but in my view it would be a mistake to say we will no longer fly at night. To do so would denude not just skills on the North Sea but potentially the whole industry over time.
For me, T4 Risen has hit the nail on the head, VMC low level handling at night in poor weather while subconsciously not wanting to lose sight of a rig can be very difficult. Rates of turn at a slower speed, single point visual clues, downwind turning into wind, landing lights on in poor or patchy vis etc etc can all contribute massively to spatial disorientation.
While I am a huge supporter of automation, albeit with some of the provisos outlined by 212man in the other thread, I just don't think that we can treat helicopters like fixed wing, at least in the last stages of a landing offshore.
Somewhere during the latter stages of the approach, the two diverge completely and its this area for which we have to devise procedures and techniques to mitigate risks.
Night shuttles will always have to retain a greater proportion of manual flying and obviously, ARA style approaches won't be possible after the first landing.
While we must continue progress, automate and reduce risk, I also think that lessons can be learned from history. Many thousands of safe night offshore landings have been made over the years in aircraft which were ill equipped by today's standards. Those of us who have many hundreds of offshore night shuttle landings did not survive by luck alone, and remember, in the 1980s, on the SNS, some of it was single pilot, even at night.
When we had two pilots, on a dark hazy night with little wind and limited vis, we used to brief each approach, talk each other through it and monitor the PF like a hawk calling parameters until we came over the deck. 20+ landings could be a long and tiring night but it was routine.
While I am not advocating going back to the old days, lessons can be learned for we were neither stupid nor poorly trained. I was fortunate enough to have some of the best and most tailored line training from pilots with enormous local knowledge and night flying experience. Although there are cost, training and logistic implications, maybe NNS pilots could spend some time on the SNS annually to help increase familiarity with night offshore landings. Recognition and taking mitigating action is, after all, half the battle.
Its just a thought but in my view it would be a mistake to say we will no longer fly at night. To do so would denude not just skills on the North Sea but potentially the whole industry over time.
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Hey Leading Edge,
Quote " Its just a thought but in my view it would be a mistake to say we will no longer fly at night. To do so would denude not just skills on the North Sea but potentially the whole industry over time".
Not sure I agree with you there.....they do not fly at night for Shell Brunei (just the return leg on last flight to the airport maybe in the dark)...and just curious as to the last time you read about a ditching they had???????
Answers on a postcard please.......
PH.
Quote " Its just a thought but in my view it would be a mistake to say we will no longer fly at night. To do so would denude not just skills on the North Sea but potentially the whole industry over time".
Not sure I agree with you there.....they do not fly at night for Shell Brunei (just the return leg on last flight to the airport maybe in the dark)...and just curious as to the last time you read about a ditching they had???????
Answers on a postcard please.......
PH.
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There but for the grace of God go us all.
Weather reports from offshore need to be far better than they are. All to often there is no cloud base reported at night because "its dark". Fair comment of course. But in this day and age we should expect each platform (or at least field of platforms) to have cloud base and viz measuring equipment and report changes to the crews as they approach. All too often we are suckered in by optimistic/inaccurate reports resulting in go arounds and short notice ARAs.
Weather reports from offshore need to be far better than they are. All to often there is no cloud base reported at night because "its dark". Fair comment of course. But in this day and age we should expect each platform (or at least field of platforms) to have cloud base and viz measuring equipment and report changes to the crews as they approach. All too often we are suckered in by optimistic/inaccurate reports resulting in go arounds and short notice ARAs.
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Just found out from a press release who the Captain was.
Flew with (and drank with) MT in a previous life at Shell Brunei, so if you are reading this, just want to pass along best regards and glad that you came thru unscathed.......remember, they build airplanes everyday, but there's only one of you
Flew with (and drank with) MT in a previous life at Shell Brunei, so if you are reading this, just want to pass along best regards and glad that you came thru unscathed.......remember, they build airplanes everyday, but there's only one of you
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It was a big negative step when we were forced to align our Ops Manuals with JAR-OPS 3 paragraph by paragraph. In my opinion this was done to make it easy for the Authority to check that our manuals were compliant with Jar-Ops 3 - it was not done to make the manuals easy to interpret by flight crew. A lot of good stuff was lost from the manuals as a consequence and its less easy to read as a result.
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It's a crazy situation regarding night flying out here in Nigeria. We're only allowed to fly at night on life saving flights or to practise for them. There are very few actual life saving flights and all we do is practise every 90 days (at locations where there is a night standby). This means that most people are hopelessly out of practise and many pilots have extremely limited night experience anyway unless they happen to have come here from the North Sea. We too have very varied machines in which to carry it out, from Bell 412s with a fairly rudimentary autopilot, very old S76s with no autopilot and new S76s with a good 4 axis autopilot. The worst thing about the S76 is that it is a cr*p helicopter for night flying with a high nose attitude (especially when it is light with just 2 pilots in it for training) and is very difficult to see out of in any rain. For those reasons I think it's about time the operators out here only allowed night emergency flights to be carried out fully coupled. The average pilot on my operation carries out a maximum of 12 night landings a year and gets maybe 6 hours of night flying.
What's even worse is that we have nothing like the Jigsaw you refer to on the North Sea. From Eket it's not so bad because there are a lot of boats around to pick us up if we ditch, but the guys in places like Port Harcourt and Warri who may have long transits over very dangerous territory with large numbers of armed terrorists and no chance of being picked up until daylight even if they survive a powered forced landing at night. There are probably not more than 4 helicopter winches in the entire country and to my knowledge there is no night winch training, mostly because the helicopters have no equipment to enable them to carry out night winching safely. I worry each and every single time I have to fly at night, but if I refuse I'd certainly be fired by a company whose managers have no interest in the safety of their crews, only making the money they're paid for putting our lives in harm's way
What's even worse is that we have nothing like the Jigsaw you refer to on the North Sea. From Eket it's not so bad because there are a lot of boats around to pick us up if we ditch, but the guys in places like Port Harcourt and Warri who may have long transits over very dangerous territory with large numbers of armed terrorists and no chance of being picked up until daylight even if they survive a powered forced landing at night. There are probably not more than 4 helicopter winches in the entire country and to my knowledge there is no night winch training, mostly because the helicopters have no equipment to enable them to carry out night winching safely. I worry each and every single time I have to fly at night, but if I refuse I'd certainly be fired by a company whose managers have no interest in the safety of their crews, only making the money they're paid for putting our lives in harm's way
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EGPWS?
What help might the all singing all dancing EGPWS have been to the crew in this situation. With AVAD they had a good chance of having two audio warnings: "Check Height" at bug height plus "One Hundred Feet". Either of these may have given the crew enough warning to be able to correct the situation (Although perhaps not enough warning if they were going backwards and down at 4000fpm as per the Australian Puma a few years ago). What warnings should EGPWS have given?
J,
Same situation since time memorial there.....just stand your standby and if the weather isn't good enough or the MEL'd equipment (or defective kit not logged) is sufficient.....crank up....get almost out of sight of the runway/heliport and turn around saying the weather was too bad. Hold your explanation to just that. You tried but could not get there.
There was one 412 lost with all hands on one of those runs....that should be enough.
It is not life saving.....it is just another transport flight. The oil business used boats long before they used helicopters.
If you have the proper kit, accurate weather reporting, are familiar with the route, current and proficient in IMC and night operations, and have security at every stop along the way....and the weather is within limits then maybe give it a go.
The Life Saving release from the rules grants you the right to go.....but does not require you to go....if the management doesn't like it....throw the keys to them and point them to the aircraft.
The object of the exercise is for the crew, aircraft, and passengers to arrive safely without undue risk to any. If they will not live without immediate medical care....what chance do you think they have of getting that level care upon arrival in the dark?
A few hours waiting for daylight only makes the outcome much more certain....and safer.
Same situation since time memorial there.....just stand your standby and if the weather isn't good enough or the MEL'd equipment (or defective kit not logged) is sufficient.....crank up....get almost out of sight of the runway/heliport and turn around saying the weather was too bad. Hold your explanation to just that. You tried but could not get there.
There was one 412 lost with all hands on one of those runs....that should be enough.
It is not life saving.....it is just another transport flight. The oil business used boats long before they used helicopters.
If you have the proper kit, accurate weather reporting, are familiar with the route, current and proficient in IMC and night operations, and have security at every stop along the way....and the weather is within limits then maybe give it a go.
The Life Saving release from the rules grants you the right to go.....but does not require you to go....if the management doesn't like it....throw the keys to them and point them to the aircraft.
The object of the exercise is for the crew, aircraft, and passengers to arrive safely without undue risk to any. If they will not live without immediate medical care....what chance do you think they have of getting that level care upon arrival in the dark?
A few hours waiting for daylight only makes the outcome much more certain....and safer.
he1iaviator
Good question, EGPWS was fitted but I am not sure if it was software v24 or v26. If the former, there are lots of holes in it, though they should have got the "100" call, albeit probably too late by then. The other calls, I guess "minimums" (sic!) with gear down, they might have got but since these and 100' are not suspendable and you hear them on every landing (unless you bug right down), they tend to impinge less.
The wouldn't have got anything from the GPWS classic modes unless the rod was above 1000'/min or so, and that is assuming that mode 1 is turned on for the EC225 installation (its turned off for the S92 installation) - I am not sure, we only have v26 which does have mode 1 turned on.
If v26, its more like AVAD with "check height" and "100" (though no attensons). Since check height is suspendable you shouldn't hear it unless something is wrong, but it depends on what radalt bug settings they have, and whether they suspended prior to ditching. Bug settings are on the FDR, suspend is not but of course the CVR will tell all.
HC
Good question, EGPWS was fitted but I am not sure if it was software v24 or v26. If the former, there are lots of holes in it, though they should have got the "100" call, albeit probably too late by then. The other calls, I guess "minimums" (sic!) with gear down, they might have got but since these and 100' are not suspendable and you hear them on every landing (unless you bug right down), they tend to impinge less.
The wouldn't have got anything from the GPWS classic modes unless the rod was above 1000'/min or so, and that is assuming that mode 1 is turned on for the EC225 installation (its turned off for the S92 installation) - I am not sure, we only have v26 which does have mode 1 turned on.
If v26, its more like AVAD with "check height" and "100" (though no attensons). Since check height is suspendable you shouldn't hear it unless something is wrong, but it depends on what radalt bug settings they have, and whether they suspended prior to ditching. Bug settings are on the FDR, suspend is not but of course the CVR will tell all.
HC
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Pull Harder
The relationship between Shell Brunei not flying at night and having never had a ditching is one that I am struggling to answer on my postcard.
Not flying at night doesn't mean they couldn't have one during the day and if they did fly at night it doesn't follow that they would have one day or night.
In fact, I am not sure about the point you are trying to make but please don't worry since I don't wish to enter into prolonged correspondence with you about it.
The relationship between Shell Brunei not flying at night and having never had a ditching is one that I am struggling to answer on my postcard.
Not flying at night doesn't mean they couldn't have one during the day and if they did fly at night it doesn't follow that they would have one day or night.
In fact, I am not sure about the point you are trying to make but please don't worry since I don't wish to enter into prolonged correspondence with you about it.
Bond statement should have been available to operators on Monday, is it out there yet? Not been into work so don't know if facts are in general circulation yet so not sure if they can be talked about on this forum.
We have discussed at length night SOPs, how about discussing what can be provided offshore to aid pilots regarding approach angle and closing speed and make it more difficult to get disorientated in the first place. We have had in the SNS a "trial" deck lighting system whereby both the circle and "H" are lit with LEDs which greatly improves situational awareness. Unfortunately the sysem has only been rolled out on a trial basis on the Thames, and the last I heard it was sent North for Bond to assess. Does anyone have any further info on this.
I think Bristow's did an onshore trial which they videod, I'll see if I can find reference to it on the net and post a link. Maybe someone else already knows where one is?
Finding published in CAA Paper 2006/03, http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/2006_03.pdf , cant find the video yet.
Also may want to look at http://www.oilandgasuk.co.uk/downloa...wson_Paper.pdf includes some pictures of the system.
We have discussed at length night SOPs, how about discussing what can be provided offshore to aid pilots regarding approach angle and closing speed and make it more difficult to get disorientated in the first place. We have had in the SNS a "trial" deck lighting system whereby both the circle and "H" are lit with LEDs which greatly improves situational awareness. Unfortunately the sysem has only been rolled out on a trial basis on the Thames, and the last I heard it was sent North for Bond to assess. Does anyone have any further info on this.
I think Bristow's did an onshore trial which they videod, I'll see if I can find reference to it on the net and post a link. Maybe someone else already knows where one is?
Finding published in CAA Paper 2006/03, http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/2006_03.pdf , cant find the video yet.
Also may want to look at http://www.oilandgasuk.co.uk/downloa...wson_Paper.pdf includes some pictures of the system.
Last edited by pitchlink; 3rd Mar 2009 at 17:39.
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Have you all been gagged?
No, we just know nothing
Are you all still operating different procedures?
Nothing changed in the east.
Are Bond still mixing crews on 225/L2?
Yes.
No, we just know nothing
Are you all still operating different procedures?
Nothing changed in the east.
Are Bond still mixing crews on 225/L2?
Yes.