PHI Crash in Louisiana Jan 2009 - 8 Dead, 1 Injured
"normalization of deviance"
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The Hazard Analysis 'and' Critical Control Points technique is the food industry's preventative risk assessment process. It was derived from NASA work on astronaut food (not o-rings).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HACCP
Nor does it have anything to do with Diane Vaughan.
Er now what was this thread about again? Oh yes...
topendtorque
It would be better to run a proactive FDR analysis programme after every safe landing to learn about near-missses than add the capability to transmit a few seconds of data prior to the occassional impact.
In this case assuming if the FDR survived as designed it either has data to answer 'why' or it doesn't, and If not, transmitting limited data before impact would not help.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HACCP
Nor does it have anything to do with Diane Vaughan.
Er now what was this thread about again? Oh yes...
topendtorque
It would be better to run a proactive FDR analysis programme after every safe landing to learn about near-missses than add the capability to transmit a few seconds of data prior to the occassional impact.
In this case assuming if the FDR survived as designed it either has data to answer 'why' or it doesn't, and If not, transmitting limited data before impact would not help.
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requisite psychometric testing!
Ramen
Unfortunately I am serious, however the poor old yanks still demonstrate massive divergance in their own beef export industry by three times failing to remove bone from shipments to Korea /Japan after they have been suspended for each of the previous four years. One day they'll work it out, meanwhile we're laughng to the bank.
One good thing about it is that crocodile abbattoirs now do three salmonella swabs instead a washdown with a hose.
They could do thirty three and I still wouldn't eat the stuff.
HACCP has got processors toidentify risky areas, we are supposed to use checklists. That to my mind should enough , but in the vein of the runaway politically warm alGore it's now suggested that we have ISO9002 cred or in the meat industry its now ISO 14002.
Its all a bit like the zim currency, as you point out and to draw an african parallel. bloody worthless when it comes to real safetly SKILL and ATTITUDE
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The companies offering sat-comms for aircraft these days posess the necessary technology to satisfy topendtorques needs.
Take the E-HUMS on the new 76C++'s that records literally dozens of channels and link it to the sat-comm and hey presto, you have realtime monitoring of all the selected parameters including FMS, GPS position and a telephone line if you want one too!
Take the E-HUMS on the new 76C++'s that records literally dozens of channels and link it to the sat-comm and hey presto, you have realtime monitoring of all the selected parameters including FMS, GPS position and a telephone line if you want one too!
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,but the absence of problems in servo/gearbox etc etc. it's amazing...
Just a question, has there ever been a recorded incident of maybe a front screen failing in the 76? Sounds like something broke a window if background noise increased. Wild speculation, shot at?
I bet no-one expected that report!
I bet no-one expected that report!
What other flight parameters are recorded besides Airspeed and Altitude? Such as heading, turn rate, attitude......?
So they will know what the controls were doing....and whether the control positions coorelate to the flight path of the aircraft then?
I wonder what the tail rotor gear box and blades looked like and where they were found?
I wonder what the tail rotor gear box and blades looked like and where they were found?
Portions of the windscreen and composite center post have been recovered and sent to the NTSB laboratory in Washington, DC for further examination and analysis of the composite structure and windscreen.
It's one of the things in the report being looked at further from how I read it.??
Extremely interesting update mainly because it concentrates on aircraft systems and remains totally silent on the control positions.
My first impression is that this report has been provided to restore operator's/crew's confidence in the aircraft systems whilst not speculating about the actions/behaviour of the crew members.
In the AS355 'Harding' accident report in the UK several years ago, there was also reference to a noise 'heard on the CVR'; there was speculation about the source of the noise but it was never resolved.
Jim
My first impression is that this report has been provided to restore operator's/crew's confidence in the aircraft systems whilst not speculating about the actions/behaviour of the crew members.
In the AS355 'Harding' accident report in the UK several years ago, there was also reference to a noise 'heard on the CVR'; there was speculation about the source of the noise but it was never resolved.
Jim
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Following on from Helimutts line of thought....was it hunting season in that area at the time, at 700 ft and 138 Kts and if you were very unlucky could a bullet shatter the windscreen? Is 700ft the normal altitude for flights on that route?
What was the "Loud Noise"? What kind of noise was it....sudden sharp of short duration or was it sudden sharp and prolonged....one big "Bang" or a long duration noise?
Why would the Engine Levers be in any position other than forward in the normal setting?
Who....What....moved them aft? Human, failure of some kind, or impact?
Why would the Engine Levers be in any position other than forward in the normal setting?
Who....What....moved them aft? Human, failure of some kind, or impact?
SASless:
I haven't seen any official word as to the position of the engine levers. (Has anyone?) But apparently, by admitting that they are focusing on the windshield and centerpost, the NTSB is looking down that avenue.
I'll say one thing. If they've examined the various data recorders as they say, then they are not telling us the full story, but only what they want us to know. Their report leaves out many important details and only gives us crumbs. The FDR certainly could have given us the position of the ECL's, and the collective. And the CVR certainly contained some messages from the pilots (or did they sit there for 10 seconds-plus and say and do nothing?).
Is the NTSB now hinting that the cause of this crash was external and not internal? If their intention was to "throw something out there" to assuage the nagging fears of S-76 community, they did more harm than good. There are more questions now than before. We must believe that this is merely a very carefully crafted "press release" and not meant as anything more.
Why would the Engine Levers be in any position other than forward in the normal setting?
Who....What....moved them aft? Human, failure of some kind, or impact?
Who....What....moved them aft? Human, failure of some kind, or impact?
I'll say one thing. If they've examined the various data recorders as they say, then they are not telling us the full story, but only what they want us to know. Their report leaves out many important details and only gives us crumbs. The FDR certainly could have given us the position of the ECL's, and the collective. And the CVR certainly contained some messages from the pilots (or did they sit there for 10 seconds-plus and say and do nothing?).
Is the NTSB now hinting that the cause of this crash was external and not internal? If their intention was to "throw something out there" to assuage the nagging fears of S-76 community, they did more harm than good. There are more questions now than before. We must believe that this is merely a very carefully crafted "press release" and not meant as anything more.
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"carefully crafted" is probably a good description, much better than the initial report.
I agree, it sounds like they want to assure the rest of us, that it was something other than a inexplicable instantaneous combustion; rather - as you said - something external or structural, something unique that doesn't seem to endanger the rest of the fleet. They very much want to make sure to cover and exclude the engines, drivetrains, hydraulics and rotors.
It looks like they have a pretty good idea, but unlike us, can't speculate ( 
) until they have prove.
(one would think PHI has tried (and found) every flaw on that airframe - how many of all S-76 AD's are the result of an incident at PHI? 85%?)
I agree, it sounds like they want to assure the rest of us, that it was something other than a inexplicable instantaneous combustion; rather - as you said - something external or structural, something unique that doesn't seem to endanger the rest of the fleet. They very much want to make sure to cover and exclude the engines, drivetrains, hydraulics and rotors.
It looks like they have a pretty good idea, but unlike us, can't speculate (
) until they have prove.(one would think PHI has tried (and found) every flaw on that airframe - how many of all S-76 AD's are the result of an incident at PHI? 85%?)
Last edited by Phil77; 6th Feb 2009 at 16:29. Reason: clarification
FH-1100,
It was my assumption the engine levers might not have been fully forward....following up on the thought of a bird strike or structural failure as has been discussed such as a windscreen pushing backwards with a resulting movement of the engine levers. What their position really was is anyone's guess.
The center post remains is being examined and might surface some indication of if that was a cause or not perhaps.
It was my assumption the engine levers might not have been fully forward....following up on the thought of a bird strike or structural failure as has been discussed such as a windscreen pushing backwards with a resulting movement of the engine levers. What their position really was is anyone's guess.
The center post remains is being examined and might surface some indication of if that was a cause or not perhaps.