PHI Crash in Louisiana Jan 2009 - 8 Dead, 1 Injured
Join Date: Dec 2001
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And it would depend on where the sensors for the ECLs were located. Were they at the ECL or at some place downstream? If the sensors were at the ECLs, and the damage actually just shifted the whole ECL block, but stretched the cables downstream to the point where the cables moved the fuel controls, we'd still not know if the something hitting the ECL block was the culprit...
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When PHi gets a new 76 they remove the heavy heated glass screens and replace them with lighter plastic versions. When i was in 748P and her sister 745P we had a couple crack for no obvious reason.
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Just a comment re birdstrike. One of our aircraft took a bird on the top of the windscreen divider, result being it knocked both fire handles out of the detent which of course dropped both generators off line, ergo the loss of helipilots ++++++++
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Shawn-
From my FSI training, the ECL "sensors" are located directly above the throttle handles. There are a couple linear potentiometers for each throttle. Reversed polarity for fault detection.
This was a C++. It is these sensors that control the DECUs. No cables, just wires.
HOSS
From my FSI training, the ECL "sensors" are located directly above the throttle handles. There are a couple linear potentiometers for each throttle. Reversed polarity for fault detection.
This was a C++. It is these sensors that control the DECUs. No cables, just wires.
HOSS
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Collective?
Not a pilot. Been flying PHI, Air Log, ERA for the last 30 yrs. Good men on the stick at all Co's. Flew with one of the guys who went down out of Amelia. It's been a hard month.
My question.....Why was the collective, autopilot and other data contained in the post dated 1-11-09 not included in the NTSB report? It seemed all other data from the poster matched the NTSB report so all seems valid.
My HS friend is corporate fixed wing but his Dad retired from the GOM with Evergreen. The windscreen coming in was my friends first thought after reading the NTSB report. It seems structural is where this is all going or am I missing something?
Sorry if I've asked redundant or idiot questions but this accident has really consumed me for some reason the past few weeks.
Keep all the families in your prayers.
My question.....Why was the collective, autopilot and other data contained in the post dated 1-11-09 not included in the NTSB report? It seemed all other data from the poster matched the NTSB report so all seems valid.
My HS friend is corporate fixed wing but his Dad retired from the GOM with Evergreen. The windscreen coming in was my friends first thought after reading the NTSB report. It seems structural is where this is all going or am I missing something?
Sorry if I've asked redundant or idiot questions but this accident has really consumed me for some reason the past few weeks.
Keep all the families in your prayers.
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Survivor
Been keeping tabs on Steven Yeltin, the sole survivor. He got off the ventilator a week or so ago. Eyes are open and kinda responding to stimuli. Previous report said severe head trauma so lets hope nothing lasting comes of that.
S-76 Replacement Windscreen
Old Skool, the original windshields are heavier , and are so not only because of the heating elements, but also to meet some rigorous design requirements. I'd be interested to see the structural substantiation for the replacement windscreen design and the QA standards and records for its manufacture.
Thanks,
John Dixson
Thanks,
John Dixson
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possible bird strike
AMC had a BK117 bird strike at cruise a couple years so ago--knocked back both throttles. Thinking he had a double eng failure, pilot entered auto, yet noticed prior to touchdown and advanced throttles for much more controlled and successful landing. I don't remember the alt at which the strike occured.
p
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Possible Bird Strike
One would think that a bird big enough to create an impact heard on the recorder and large enough to do the damage to the windscreen/backup structure would leave some remains for the investigative team? Certainly, you raise a possibility that must be considered.
Thanks,
John Dixson
Thanks,
John Dixson
OK...assume it was a bird strike...or a windscreen failure...or a structural failiure...or some other DECU simultaneous dual engine dual mode failure....why would it necessarily result in a crash?
Both pilot's incapacitated simultaneously....both sets of flight controls rendered useless simultaneously?
There's more to this crash than meets the current line of assumptions here.
Put yer thinking caps on.....and start thinking through what is being suggested in each of these scenario's that have been brought up and discussed.
Was it a single windscreen....both windscreens....windscreens and center post....what would have rendered both pilots unable to cope with what happened?
Has there been trouble in the past at PHI with aircraft that had the windscreens replaced?
Any reports of problems with the windscreen center posts?
There are bound to be PHI pilots or engineers (mechanics) that could answer that for us.
Everything is conjecture here....but at least make it "constructive" conjecture.
Both pilot's incapacitated simultaneously....both sets of flight controls rendered useless simultaneously?
There's more to this crash than meets the current line of assumptions here.
Put yer thinking caps on.....and start thinking through what is being suggested in each of these scenario's that have been brought up and discussed.
Was it a single windscreen....both windscreens....windscreens and center post....what would have rendered both pilots unable to cope with what happened?
Has there been trouble in the past at PHI with aircraft that had the windscreens replaced?
Any reports of problems with the windscreen center posts?
There are bound to be PHI pilots or engineers (mechanics) that could answer that for us.
Everything is conjecture here....but at least make it "constructive" conjecture.
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We get information updates from time to time as pilots at PHI but they usually raise more questions.
NTSB basically has released the known true facts at the time.
Many persons are running around responding in interesting ways.
From additional aircraft inspections based on No known S-76 defeciency to
going back to 20,000 hour A++'s because "they do not have DECU's"
It will be months before the final report is out as all fatal accidents of this nature take time to do the job correctly. And again no emergency AD's from the FAA, Sikorsky or NTSB.
I would rather fly in a new C++ than go back to a 20,000 hr A++ anyday of the week ,but few persons making the decisions have not flown the GOM in years which compounds the issue. Or asked those of us professional pilots what we think and know from being at the point of the spear day by day.
So whatever the final outcome Tom and Vyarl will be missed. And hopefully people will learn on how or not how to respond to a fatal accident until the investigation is complete. With that correct information we will go out and apply that additional knowledge to our art of flying helicopters.
NTSB basically has released the known true facts at the time.
Many persons are running around responding in interesting ways.
From additional aircraft inspections based on No known S-76 defeciency to
going back to 20,000 hour A++'s because "they do not have DECU's"
It will be months before the final report is out as all fatal accidents of this nature take time to do the job correctly. And again no emergency AD's from the FAA, Sikorsky or NTSB.
I would rather fly in a new C++ than go back to a 20,000 hr A++ anyday of the week ,but few persons making the decisions have not flown the GOM in years which compounds the issue. Or asked those of us professional pilots what we think and know from being at the point of the spear day by day.
So whatever the final outcome Tom and Vyarl will be missed. And hopefully people will learn on how or not how to respond to a fatal accident until the investigation is complete. With that correct information we will go out and apply that additional knowledge to our art of flying helicopters.
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S-76C++ Replacement Windscreen
I recently reviewed the "Sikorsky S76C++ Helicopter Offshore Oil Mission" technical information download from the Sikorsky Website. Sikorsky reports The Standard Offshore Oil Configuration consists of the Baseline Configuration plus the following options. Of those options it list “Plastic windshields – replaces baseline glass windshields”.
The Data was published in 2007. I do not know if this option was available in late 2006 when N748P received its Certification.
However, Old Skool inferred that PHI changed out the glass to plastic. Did PHI’s AP’s do this conversion or was it a factory conversion per the Options listed above?
Like JohnDixson, I too am interested to see the information regarding the replacement windscreen.
The Data was published in 2007. I do not know if this option was available in late 2006 when N748P received its Certification.
However, Old Skool inferred that PHI changed out the glass to plastic. Did PHI’s AP’s do this conversion or was it a factory conversion per the Options listed above?
Like JohnDixson, I too am interested to see the information regarding the replacement windscreen.
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rotorbrent,
If you are serious about that statement then you need to take a long hard look at the maintenance department of your company, because before long all your shiny new C++'s will be that age too and by your account as dangerous/unsuitable for you.
The plastic screens have been around as an STC for years. I fitted a few in the mid '90's, if I recall they were from T*** ***l.
I would rather fly in a new C++ than go back to a 20,000 hr A++ anyday of the week
The plastic screens have been around as an STC for years. I fitted a few in the mid '90's, if I recall they were from T*** ***l.
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Our S-76C++'s have a lot more installed equipment that makes the workload ,situational awareness and creature comfort a lot better than the older A++'s. Not to mention better single engine performance and better payload at higher temps and DA's. And our customers agree as we have very few A's left and most are flying C++'s. I said nothing about the maintenance which is the best in the world in my 30 years of aviation experience . You are truely your handle.
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OK, I got it now. I thought you had an issue with the state of the A++'s not their specification, Apologies for that.
No need to get your rotorbent after all.
No need to get your rotorbent after all.
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WSJ report
FEBRUARY 15, 2009, 5:49 P.M.
Bird Strike Was Likely Cause of Chopper Crash
By ANDY PASZTOR
Federal investigators increasingly suspect that a collision with a bird led to the crash of a widely-used Sikorsky helicopter model last month that killed eight people in the Gulf of Mexico, according to industry officials and safety experts.
The Jan. 4 crash of the Sikorsky S-76C chopper, manufactured by a unit of United Technologies Corp., had initially stumped crash investigators, who had previously ruled out engine, transmission, electrical or hydraulic failures. The National Transportation Safety board, which is heading the probe, also said the chopper didn't run out of fuel, hit some other aircraft or suffer a problem with its rotors. Now, investigators believe a bird strike destroyed the windshield and somehow resulted in nearly turning off the engines.
The initial difficulty in determining a cause raised widespread safety concerns. The Sikorsky chopper is a workhorse for many offshore-oil operations, emergency-medical transport firms and other commercial services world-wide, and there are currently 600 in operation. The chopper was being used by Royal Dutch Shell PLC's U.S. unit, to transport workers to offshore facilities in the Gulf of Mexico. After the crash, Shell temporarily grounded its entire fleet of S-76C choppers, and instead used boats to transport most of those workers.
If a bird strike is ultimately determined to be the cause, the chopper crash would be the second instance over a period of less than two weeks in January that bird strikes caused high-profile aviation accidents in the U.S. A crippled US Airways jetliner ditched in New York City's Hudson River in mid-January, after birds seriously damaged both of its engines, but there were no fatalities.
The NTSB had initially said it didn't find any evidence of a bird strike in the helicopter crash. But investigators have since changed their focus, according to people familiar with the details. The NTSB has sent material taken from inside the cockpit to wildlife experts at the Smithsonian Institution to determine if they came from a bird, a board spokesman confirmed over the weekend. The spokesman also said the board is examining the center post of the windshield. That's near the suspected point of impact with a bird.
Analysis of the sounds captured by the cockpit voice recorder reveal a sudden loud bang followed by an intense rush of wind, according to people familiar with the details. The board has said that one second later, power from both of the helicopter's engines simultaneously dropped to almost nothing. Airspeed decreased slightly for the next 10 seconds, according to the board, while the helicopter descended and ultimately crashed.
One theory is that a remnant of the windshield, or some other force created by the impact, retarded the throttles and nearly shut off the engines.
Other signs point in the same direction. Sikorsky, the manufacturer of the helicopter, appears poised to issue a letter warning operators about the potential dangers of installing certain kinds of acrylic windshields. Such windshields are sometimes retrofitted in helicopters in order to save weight, but the crash has raised questions about the strength of some of them.
A spokesman for Sikorsky didn't have any immediate comment. A spokesman for PHI Inc., Metairie, La., which operated the helicopter, has declined to take questions on the crash or the investigation.
The crash happened in clear weather while cruising at roughly 140 miles per hour at an altitude of 700 feet toward an offshore oil platform. At such a low altitude, the pilots would have little time to respond to such a near-shutdown of engines.
Write to Andy Pasztor at [email protected]
Bird Strike Was Likely Cause of Chopper Crash
By ANDY PASZTOR
Federal investigators increasingly suspect that a collision with a bird led to the crash of a widely-used Sikorsky helicopter model last month that killed eight people in the Gulf of Mexico, according to industry officials and safety experts.
The Jan. 4 crash of the Sikorsky S-76C chopper, manufactured by a unit of United Technologies Corp., had initially stumped crash investigators, who had previously ruled out engine, transmission, electrical or hydraulic failures. The National Transportation Safety board, which is heading the probe, also said the chopper didn't run out of fuel, hit some other aircraft or suffer a problem with its rotors. Now, investigators believe a bird strike destroyed the windshield and somehow resulted in nearly turning off the engines.
The initial difficulty in determining a cause raised widespread safety concerns. The Sikorsky chopper is a workhorse for many offshore-oil operations, emergency-medical transport firms and other commercial services world-wide, and there are currently 600 in operation. The chopper was being used by Royal Dutch Shell PLC's U.S. unit, to transport workers to offshore facilities in the Gulf of Mexico. After the crash, Shell temporarily grounded its entire fleet of S-76C choppers, and instead used boats to transport most of those workers.
If a bird strike is ultimately determined to be the cause, the chopper crash would be the second instance over a period of less than two weeks in January that bird strikes caused high-profile aviation accidents in the U.S. A crippled US Airways jetliner ditched in New York City's Hudson River in mid-January, after birds seriously damaged both of its engines, but there were no fatalities.
The NTSB had initially said it didn't find any evidence of a bird strike in the helicopter crash. But investigators have since changed their focus, according to people familiar with the details. The NTSB has sent material taken from inside the cockpit to wildlife experts at the Smithsonian Institution to determine if they came from a bird, a board spokesman confirmed over the weekend. The spokesman also said the board is examining the center post of the windshield. That's near the suspected point of impact with a bird.
Analysis of the sounds captured by the cockpit voice recorder reveal a sudden loud bang followed by an intense rush of wind, according to people familiar with the details. The board has said that one second later, power from both of the helicopter's engines simultaneously dropped to almost nothing. Airspeed decreased slightly for the next 10 seconds, according to the board, while the helicopter descended and ultimately crashed.
One theory is that a remnant of the windshield, or some other force created by the impact, retarded the throttles and nearly shut off the engines.
Other signs point in the same direction. Sikorsky, the manufacturer of the helicopter, appears poised to issue a letter warning operators about the potential dangers of installing certain kinds of acrylic windshields. Such windshields are sometimes retrofitted in helicopters in order to save weight, but the crash has raised questions about the strength of some of them.
A spokesman for Sikorsky didn't have any immediate comment. A spokesman for PHI Inc., Metairie, La., which operated the helicopter, has declined to take questions on the crash or the investigation.
The crash happened in clear weather while cruising at roughly 140 miles per hour at an altitude of 700 feet toward an offshore oil platform. At such a low altitude, the pilots would have little time to respond to such a near-shutdown of engines.
Write to Andy Pasztor at [email protected]