Helicopter reported down in the GOM
Thread Starter
We must also remember the USCG relies mainly upon surface craft for search and rescue....as aircraft are tasked with other duties more often than not since 9/11 and advent of the "War on Drugs".
My recollection of previous searches for downed commercial helicopters relied upon non-government sources for the bulk of the search effort as the Coasties are very few and far between despite the frequency of SAR call outs in the GOM.
That is the price we pay for multiple demands for limited resources.
My recollection of previous searches for downed commercial helicopters relied upon non-government sources for the bulk of the search effort as the Coasties are very few and far between despite the frequency of SAR call outs in the GOM.
That is the price we pay for multiple demands for limited resources.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Poland
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@Shell Management
I'm well aware of the cold and trauma shock in this kind of situation, as well as any injuries cuts this time severely (internal bleeding gives 2% chances of making through 1 hour in any conditions). I know the subject well enough to know those conditions were bad for flying without immersion suits. But the "up to one hour" is not my personal estimate. I actually ask a friend who is a trained professional in maritime rescue operations, gave him all the data we know about weather at that time, clothing according to the weather, but no dry suit, and asked him for his best shot, for best case scenario, average male - he gave me 30 minutes, to 1 hour... 2 hours absolute max if someone would be exceptionally tough.
I'm not even trying to go here arguing about the helicopter type, its equipment for such flight, and crew survival gear - those issues are obvious to us. It's just interesting procedure of this operator to call for rescue service after the time for finding people alive - runs out.
I'm well aware of the cold and trauma shock in this kind of situation, as well as any injuries cuts this time severely (internal bleeding gives 2% chances of making through 1 hour in any conditions). I know the subject well enough to know those conditions were bad for flying without immersion suits. But the "up to one hour" is not my personal estimate. I actually ask a friend who is a trained professional in maritime rescue operations, gave him all the data we know about weather at that time, clothing according to the weather, but no dry suit, and asked him for his best shot, for best case scenario, average male - he gave me 30 minutes, to 1 hour... 2 hours absolute max if someone would be exceptionally tough.
I'm not even trying to go here arguing about the helicopter type, its equipment for such flight, and crew survival gear - those issues are obvious to us. It's just interesting procedure of this operator to call for rescue service after the time for finding people alive - runs out.
Thread Starter
Fubar,
That is not the question that is being begged.
I would suggest the better question is why this situation is allowed to exist at all?
Where is the FAA, the insurance companies, and the pilot's unions regards such an important safety issue?
I know where the oil companies are.....talking to the actuaries to get the probability data and cost figures for such losses....so they can be factored into their calculation of the "Cost of Doing Business".
Safety to an oil company is merely risk analysis and costing.....human lives do not matter despite all the propaganda they put out to the contrary.
Elsewise....there would be a much stronger movement towards real safety improvements than is evidenced in the GOM.
That is not the question that is being begged.
I would suggest the better question is why this situation is allowed to exist at all?
Where is the FAA, the insurance companies, and the pilot's unions regards such an important safety issue?
I know where the oil companies are.....talking to the actuaries to get the probability data and cost figures for such losses....so they can be factored into their calculation of the "Cost of Doing Business".
Safety to an oil company is merely risk analysis and costing.....human lives do not matter despite all the propaganda they put out to the contrary.
Elsewise....there would be a much stronger movement towards real safety improvements than is evidenced in the GOM.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: retirementland
Age: 79
Posts: 769
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SASless - I would beg to differ on the issue of human lives, not every oil company is equal.
However it is about time that US industry (oil companies and operators) started making safety progress rather than safety excuses in the GOM.
However it is about time that US industry (oil companies and operators) started making safety progress rather than safety excuses in the GOM.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Poland
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by SASless
Fubar,
That is not the question that is being begged.
That is not the question that is being begged.
Originally Posted by SASless
I would suggest the better question is why this situation is allowed to exist at all?
Where is the FAA, the insurance companies...
Where is the FAA, the insurance companies...
Originally Posted by SASless
...and the pilot's unions regards such an important safety issue?
I don't know much about you, but from what I know, you're "raised" by military - i.e. "The Church of St. Murphy" - which say that, what can happen - will eventually happen, but it will be worse and at different time, than we suspect. Well my whole life I was raised with military folks that attended the same church - therefore our attention to procedures and safety equipment is probably somewhat similar.
Now, after some time being exposed to the pure civy side of helicopter aviation. I'm slowly realizing, that there are many people who don't perceive things like me - the "airliner captain" type, with polyester, white, short sleeve, starched shirt, for whom flight helmet and nomex jump suit is unthinkable disgrace. I may be jumping to conclusions here, and maybe putting a stick into hornets nest. But maybe... just maybe, to many pilots just don't care ? The "it can't happen to me" syndrome at work ?
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 690
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
USCG Video
Overflight of helicopter crash in Sabine Pass, Texas (FOR RELEASE)
Short bit of footage. Four of six float bags inflated, but only one cross tube visble. Looks like the fuselage may have been ripped off as the cross tube is upright.
Fubar its not clear - do you wear a white poly shirt or not?
Certainly many GOM pilots work on the basis that accidents happen to the other guy.
Short bit of footage. Four of six float bags inflated, but only one cross tube visble. Looks like the fuselage may have been ripped off as the cross tube is upright.
Fubar its not clear - do you wear a white poly shirt or not?
Certainly many GOM pilots work on the basis that accidents happen to the other guy.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: All The Places I Shouldnt Be
Posts: 1,009
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Someone previously mentioned the unions and why arent they up in arms about the safety record in the GOM.
Judging by all their own trumpet blowing when the strikes were going on previously, shouldnt they be threatening go go on strike if the safety issues arent being addressed as these guys getting killed are their members I presume, or do they only start making noises when there is the possibility that they might stop getting their membership dues.
The PHPA has been awfully quiet since the strikes and yet pilots are still getting killed. I would have thought that keeping their members safe would have been a no brainer for any association.
Judging by all their own trumpet blowing when the strikes were going on previously, shouldnt they be threatening go go on strike if the safety issues arent being addressed as these guys getting killed are their members I presume, or do they only start making noises when there is the possibility that they might stop getting their membership dues.
The PHPA has been awfully quiet since the strikes and yet pilots are still getting killed. I would have thought that keeping their members safe would have been a no brainer for any association.
The crashed helicopter does not belong to a company with union representation.
This company lately purchased most of Bristow Group's Airl Logistic aged singles (including the one that crashed).
This company does have a reputation for all kinds of shortcuts (albeit not determined whether that was a factor in this accident) and a safety record to match.
I also believe this company "leases" flight following services from one other well organized operator.
Shell, satellite tracking is only used by the major three operators in the Gulf of Mexico.
Specifically to this episode, there was an occurrence last year (or earlier this year) where delayed rescue brought the demise of more than one passenger due to water temperature.
At least one operator was courageous enough to suspend single engine and PCII operations when water temperature dropped below a certain point or wave height exceeded 14'.
Because of this decision at least one customer left for a different vendor, showing that the safety mentality only belongs to the major oil companies (at least on paper).
Immersion suits in the Gulf of Mexico? Yeah and I am the King of Spain writing here in disguise.
Remember we are operating smack in the middle of "Oil Barons" territory, and THAT mentality is prevailing.
This company lately purchased most of Bristow Group's Airl Logistic aged singles (including the one that crashed).
This company does have a reputation for all kinds of shortcuts (albeit not determined whether that was a factor in this accident) and a safety record to match.
I also believe this company "leases" flight following services from one other well organized operator.
Shell, satellite tracking is only used by the major three operators in the Gulf of Mexico.
Specifically to this episode, there was an occurrence last year (or earlier this year) where delayed rescue brought the demise of more than one passenger due to water temperature.
At least one operator was courageous enough to suspend single engine and PCII operations when water temperature dropped below a certain point or wave height exceeded 14'.
Because of this decision at least one customer left for a different vendor, showing that the safety mentality only belongs to the major oil companies (at least on paper).
Immersion suits in the Gulf of Mexico? Yeah and I am the King of Spain writing here in disguise.
Remember we are operating smack in the middle of "Oil Barons" territory, and THAT mentality is prevailing.
Last edited by tottigol; 12th Dec 2008 at 21:29.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 690
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
tottigol your post raises more questions than answers.
"The crashed helicopter does not belong to a company with union representation."
But do the unions make any real effort on safety elsewhere?
"I also believe this company "leases" flight following services from one other well organized operator."
Who is that? One could guess Air Log if they have a deal for aircraft from them
"Shell, satellite tracking is only used by the major three operators in the Gulf of Mexico. Specifically to this episode, there was an occurrence last year (or earlier this year) where delayed rescue brought the demise of more than one passenger due to water temperature."
This was an AL aircraft on Dec 29. That WAS fitted with sat tracking and there was a similar delay before rescue.
"At least one operator was courageous enough to suspend single engine and PCII operations when water temperature dropped below a certain point or wave height exceeded 14'."
Who was the operator? They deserve recognition.
"Because of this decision at least one customer left for a different vendor, showing that the safety mentality only belongs to the major oil companies (at least on paper)."
Who was the customer? They deserve to be named and shamed.
"Remember we are operating smack in the middle of "Oil Barons" territory, and THAT mentality is prevailing."
Just becuase the GOM is stuck in the 1970s doesnt mean you have to wear flares for ever.
"The crashed helicopter does not belong to a company with union representation."
But do the unions make any real effort on safety elsewhere?
"I also believe this company "leases" flight following services from one other well organized operator."
Who is that? One could guess Air Log if they have a deal for aircraft from them
"Shell, satellite tracking is only used by the major three operators in the Gulf of Mexico. Specifically to this episode, there was an occurrence last year (or earlier this year) where delayed rescue brought the demise of more than one passenger due to water temperature."
This was an AL aircraft on Dec 29. That WAS fitted with sat tracking and there was a similar delay before rescue.
"At least one operator was courageous enough to suspend single engine and PCII operations when water temperature dropped below a certain point or wave height exceeded 14'."
Who was the operator? They deserve recognition.
"Because of this decision at least one customer left for a different vendor, showing that the safety mentality only belongs to the major oil companies (at least on paper)."
Who was the customer? They deserve to be named and shamed.
"Remember we are operating smack in the middle of "Oil Barons" territory, and THAT mentality is prevailing."
Just becuase the GOM is stuck in the 1970s doesnt mean you have to wear flares for ever.
Thread Starter
Zalt,
You ever try to strike a blow for improved safety in the GOM?
Even with union supportfor the pilots at the organized companies....sticking one's neck out can be fraught with peril.
I agree with you that one can switch to cords or levi's vice flares but....the new breeches come with a price tag.
In the past....I got a very terse message after I made a post where I wondered what it would feel like to be a manager that knew he would lose one to three pilots per year....every year....and how you can stand to look at yourself in the mirror in the morning unless you knew you had done absolutely everything possible to prevent those accidents from happening.
I certainly meant no insult to any one particular person.....but I certainly trod on some very tender corns. The comment was meant to be philosophical and not personal.
There are operators that do not have fatal accidents or do so very rarely where some seem to have them on a frequent basis. All we have to do is look at the EMS industry for that.
Developing a safety environment dedicated to eliminating fatal accidents that is embraced by all those involved is a very complex and apparently impossible task as evidenced by the Gulf of Mexico Offshore Industry.
You ever try to strike a blow for improved safety in the GOM?
Even with union supportfor the pilots at the organized companies....sticking one's neck out can be fraught with peril.
I agree with you that one can switch to cords or levi's vice flares but....the new breeches come with a price tag.
In the past....I got a very terse message after I made a post where I wondered what it would feel like to be a manager that knew he would lose one to three pilots per year....every year....and how you can stand to look at yourself in the mirror in the morning unless you knew you had done absolutely everything possible to prevent those accidents from happening.
I certainly meant no insult to any one particular person.....but I certainly trod on some very tender corns. The comment was meant to be philosophical and not personal.
There are operators that do not have fatal accidents or do so very rarely where some seem to have them on a frequent basis. All we have to do is look at the EMS industry for that.
Developing a safety environment dedicated to eliminating fatal accidents that is embraced by all those involved is a very complex and apparently impossible task as evidenced by the Gulf of Mexico Offshore Industry.
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: texas
Posts: 117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When I worked in Abu Dhabi in the mid 70's I read an interesting article about hypothermia research. Up until the mid 70's the only real research on hypothermia had been done by the Nazi's in WW2. The University of Vancouver did modern research and determined the areas of the body that were most vunerable to heat loss. Out of the research came the Thermo-float jacket. It looks like a ski jacket but is made or neoprene and has a pair of shorts that can be unfolded.
Fast forward a couple of years, and I'm flying my little 206 100 miles offshore in the Gulf of Mexico with the temperatures in the 30's and I'm thinking, I need one of those jackets. When I finally got ahold of one I wore it when temps got cold, and it was wonderful since the 206's had no heat. A little problem though. Temps would be in say the 30's and by noon the temps would be pushing 60. That's the gulf. Needless to say the jacket was way too warm and off it came. Still I carried it for many years until I sort of outgrew it and flew twins full time.
I once asked Carry Howard, who was Mobile Oil's helicopter guy about their policy on survival suits. He told me the policy was if you flew in a latitude above about Philadelphia you needed one, south of that you didn't. Pretty general policy.
Today's high was in the mid 60's and by Sunday the temps will be back in the 70's. Like it or not, its tough to push cold weather survival in the gulf. I would suggest the Thermo-float type jackets. Interesting footnote for those who knew Dar. He tried a business in the early 80's selling the Thremo-float jackets. He called it SOS - Spalty Offshore Survival. Didn't work. He not only couldn't interest the operators, he couldn't sell any of them to the pilots, they weren't interested.
It will be interesting the see the facts of this tragic accident, whether hypotermia play a part. In the meantime, for those who are concerned, don't wait for the industry or the operators to solve the problem, solve it yourself.
Fast forward a couple of years, and I'm flying my little 206 100 miles offshore in the Gulf of Mexico with the temperatures in the 30's and I'm thinking, I need one of those jackets. When I finally got ahold of one I wore it when temps got cold, and it was wonderful since the 206's had no heat. A little problem though. Temps would be in say the 30's and by noon the temps would be pushing 60. That's the gulf. Needless to say the jacket was way too warm and off it came. Still I carried it for many years until I sort of outgrew it and flew twins full time.
I once asked Carry Howard, who was Mobile Oil's helicopter guy about their policy on survival suits. He told me the policy was if you flew in a latitude above about Philadelphia you needed one, south of that you didn't. Pretty general policy.
Today's high was in the mid 60's and by Sunday the temps will be back in the 70's. Like it or not, its tough to push cold weather survival in the gulf. I would suggest the Thermo-float type jackets. Interesting footnote for those who knew Dar. He tried a business in the early 80's selling the Thremo-float jackets. He called it SOS - Spalty Offshore Survival. Didn't work. He not only couldn't interest the operators, he couldn't sell any of them to the pilots, they weren't interested.
It will be interesting the see the facts of this tragic accident, whether hypotermia play a part. In the meantime, for those who are concerned, don't wait for the industry or the operators to solve the problem, solve it yourself.
Thread Starter
We had the Mustang jacket made in Canada and wore them on the North Sea and later when working fror ERA on the Cook Inlet in Alaska. I wore mine while doing bush flying in Alaska in a Hughes 500D where I flew over water in the Shumagin Islands near Sandpoint, Ak. Loved the thing! They make wonderful pillows for use during a safety nap too.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Over here
Posts: 1,030
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've never seen nor even heard rumors of immersion suits anywhere in the GOM. Helicopter operators do what the customers require. If the oil companies require immersion suits, suspending operations during inclement weather, or anything else, the operators will comply. Since the oil companies apparently don't care, neither do the operators, and short-term cheap is the name of the game, just as it is with the oil companies and pretty much every other company for the past 20+ years. IMO that's one of the primary causes of the present economic crisis.
There are no FAA regulations concerning offshore flights regarding temperature or sea state, so the FAA has no authority to prohibit them without changing the regulations.
The unions are effectively powerless, and have little if any capability to influence operations. Helicopter pilots, at least in the US, simply refuse to stick together for the common good.
There are no FAA regulations concerning offshore flights regarding temperature or sea state, so the FAA has no authority to prohibit them without changing the regulations.
The unions are effectively powerless, and have little if any capability to influence operations. Helicopter pilots, at least in the US, simply refuse to stick together for the common good.
About 1978 we agitated for immersion suits in the Brent Field, with singularly little support from (BEAS/Bristow) management. We were mostly ex RN, and had absorbed a small amount of training about surviving the Northern NS in winter; after a while we were issued Mustang jackets. Great protection in the winter, but FA use in a ditching helicopter as the positive buoyancy would have trapped the wearer, negating any survival assets the jacket might otherwise have provided 
BAH (or was it Bristow) then had an S61 ditch whilst returning with a medevac patient, and the crew and patient nearly died from exposure before rescue. The P1 was revived after winching, IIRC, having 'died' from hypothermia: all on board were in shirt sleeves, as per normal, with the heater turned up.
Within a week we were required to provide size requirements for goon suits, which arrived within a few more weeks. Maybe this lesson hasn't filtered across the Atlantic
BAH (or was it Bristow) then had an S61 ditch whilst returning with a medevac patient, and the crew and patient nearly died from exposure before rescue. The P1 was revived after winching, IIRC, having 'died' from hypothermia: all on board were in shirt sleeves, as per normal, with the heater turned up.
Within a week we were required to provide size requirements for goon suits, which arrived within a few more weeks. Maybe this lesson hasn't filtered across the Atlantic
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sale, Australia
Age: 80
Posts: 3,832
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mentioning safety and oil company in the same sentence is an oxymoron. All they're interested in is production, the means by which that is achieved is not a concern. The levels of management that call the shots sit in an office with a revolving door. They occupy said office for a period of probably three years max and then move on to an out of country position. If something blows up the manager responsible for instituting whatever practice it was that lead to the event is no longer in the country and no longer accountable. The new boy on whose watch it happened can fairly say "I didn't know, haven't been in the job long enough to get a handle". Their interest is in not rocking the boat, getting a good pay rise through coming in under budget and moving on up the greasy pole to the next promotion. Remember how you come in under budget? - spend as little as possible on infra structure, maintenance, training etc etc
Pilots as a group don't have the industrial muscle to force any issue. Esso in Australia in fact made their pilots staff, and as such are subject to a yearly appraisal to set their remuneration, as I was told, "You will do as you are told", as in, don't bother us with the legal niceties as to how to conduct operations.
We are just spinning wheels by having this discussion. We had a thread on GOM offshore safety here http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/165...re-safety.html in Feb, 2005.
In that thread I wrote in regard to a 76 ditching in the GOM 6 Sep, 2005. "12 POB, aircraft floating on its side and were unable to get the life raft out of the cabin. Captain only had one chamber in his life jacket due to a leak and so had trouble keeping his head above water. The bit that got me though was a Coast Guard fixed wing was launched 4 hours and 54 minutes after the accident to begin a search and found the survivors 25 minutes later. A rescue helo was called and arrived on scene 25 minutes later. Finally rescued after being in the water for 7 hours and 20 minutes in their life jackets. A good part of the time had been night – ditched at 1605, last survivor out of the water at 2325. 5 were seriously injured and 7 with minor. Words fail…………..SAR?" Damn good SAR backup you poor souls have plying your trade there in the GOM. Why don't the oil companies provide their own dedicated SAR with the density of traffic out there? Just being rhetorical for I full well know the answer.
Accident report here DFW05MA230
Pilots as a group don't have the industrial muscle to force any issue. Esso in Australia in fact made their pilots staff, and as such are subject to a yearly appraisal to set their remuneration, as I was told, "You will do as you are told", as in, don't bother us with the legal niceties as to how to conduct operations.
We are just spinning wheels by having this discussion. We had a thread on GOM offshore safety here http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/165...re-safety.html in Feb, 2005.
In that thread I wrote in regard to a 76 ditching in the GOM 6 Sep, 2005. "12 POB, aircraft floating on its side and were unable to get the life raft out of the cabin. Captain only had one chamber in his life jacket due to a leak and so had trouble keeping his head above water. The bit that got me though was a Coast Guard fixed wing was launched 4 hours and 54 minutes after the accident to begin a search and found the survivors 25 minutes later. A rescue helo was called and arrived on scene 25 minutes later. Finally rescued after being in the water for 7 hours and 20 minutes in their life jackets. A good part of the time had been night – ditched at 1605, last survivor out of the water at 2325. 5 were seriously injured and 7 with minor. Words fail…………..SAR?" Damn good SAR backup you poor souls have plying your trade there in the GOM. Why don't the oil companies provide their own dedicated SAR with the density of traffic out there? Just being rhetorical for I full well know the answer.
Accident report here DFW05MA230
I have two questions concerning that last accident:
Have they found out what caused the failure of both engines in that last accident and what is the reason that SAR has been launched with such a long delay?
cheers eivissa.
Have they found out what caused the failure of both engines in that last accident and what is the reason that SAR has been launched with such a long delay?
cheers eivissa.
Combine Operations
Join Date: May 2005
Location: U.K.
Posts: 687
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm glad to say it's not like that on the North Sea at all. The oil companies always put safety first, above everything else.
Until it becomes inconvenient, of course.
Until it becomes inconvenient, of course.
Thread Starter
Well now....time for Shell Management to weigh in here and tell us again how oil companies....at least one anyway...care about the Human Cost of oil operations.
It would appear by some of the responses from long serving offshore pilots there appears to be a contradiction between the perceptions we hold and what our customers say is the situation.
As politicians know....perception is reality.
Somehow the mental image of Beaudreaux trying to figure out how to squeeze his sleek frame into a poopy suit with all his bling bling, big watches, and multiple rings intact......well let's don't go there. There's probably too many moving parts on the suits for Beaudreaux, Bubba, and Earl to figure out anyway.
It would appear by some of the responses from long serving offshore pilots there appears to be a contradiction between the perceptions we hold and what our customers say is the situation.
As politicians know....perception is reality.
Somehow the mental image of Beaudreaux trying to figure out how to squeeze his sleek frame into a poopy suit with all his bling bling, big watches, and multiple rings intact......well let's don't go there. There's probably too many moving parts on the suits for Beaudreaux, Bubba, and Earl to figure out anyway.