Pilot charged for taking helicopter shopping
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Location: An Irish dude in Houston, TX. I miss home!!!
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So the guy wrecked 1 helicopter so far. The problem now is that he landed on a rooftop car park, and the only adverse result of that is that some jack-ass didn't have the reflexes to pull his hand out of a closing door.
So how is he
???
Now maybe he's "a flashy huer!!" that loves to flaunt his status symbols around and maybe he isn't the most politically correct guy around(he did make the approach over a built up area). But under the FAR's he needed to be at an altitude that didn't put people or property on the ground at risk in the event of an emergency. Now that leaves it very much open to interpretation, and I'm sure that the IAA could "prove" that he was being reckless by putting a bunch of experts up in front of a judge or committee and giving their opinion against him. But don't you guys think you're being a little harsh here.
Now maybe some of the people on here have seen him fly or better yet have sat with him, but unless you have I don't see how you can pass judgement on his actions by looking at 1 prior accident(which he may have learned a very valuable lesson from, and come out the wiser) and an incident where he blew a door closed.
So how is he
single-handedly trying to erase the Hughes 269 and 500 fleet from the face of the earth (or Ireland, at the very least)
Now maybe he's "a flashy huer!!" that loves to flaunt his status symbols around and maybe he isn't the most politically correct guy around(he did make the approach over a built up area). But under the FAR's he needed to be at an altitude that didn't put people or property on the ground at risk in the event of an emergency. Now that leaves it very much open to interpretation, and I'm sure that the IAA could "prove" that he was being reckless by putting a bunch of experts up in front of a judge or committee and giving their opinion against him. But don't you guys think you're being a little harsh here.
Now maybe some of the people on here have seen him fly or better yet have sat with him, but unless you have I don't see how you can pass judgement on his actions by looking at 1 prior accident(which he may have learned a very valuable lesson from, and come out the wiser) and an incident where he blew a door closed.
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The approach would even under FAA rules be illegal, it's a congested area with absolutely now where to go in case of an emergency. If you fly N-Reg in Ireland (or in any other country) you have to apply with IAA and FAA rules, obviously IAA rules come first.
Second of all the guy was flying without a license! A student pilot certificate is not a license. The current FAA database lists this man as a student pilot, and the FAA database doesn't lie. It takes about 3 months after the exam before the results show, but if a license is issued it always shows up in the database.
But what can the IAA or Gardai do in cases where somebody decides to fly a helicopter/airplane without a license?? How will they stop it?
Second of all the guy was flying without a license! A student pilot certificate is not a license. The current FAA database lists this man as a student pilot, and the FAA database doesn't lie. It takes about 3 months after the exam before the results show, but if a license is issued it always shows up in the database.
But what can the IAA or Gardai do in cases where somebody decides to fly a helicopter/airplane without a license?? How will they stop it?
My comment about this pilot trying to "wipe out the global Hughes fleet" should be taken as my poor attempt at wit. As for me (or anyone else here) being jealous of the man because he has his own helicopter, well, I say good luck to him. However, regardless of whether or not you or I own the helicopter we fly, there comes with the privileges of a pilot's licence the responsibility to operate the helicopter in a responsible and safe manner. This landing on the rooftop carpark was at least careless, if not reckless. Some argued earlier in this thread that there was nothing wrong with what he did, that helicopters are versatile and this is exactly what they were designed for. No-one here will argue about the versatility of rotorcraft but the problem is this N-reg machine was operated in contravention of IAA regulations with regard to the approach to this landing site.
I haven't flown with the pilot in question but I do know the people closely connected with the H269 he wrote off and others in the heli community here in Ireland who know the pilot and are not "surprised" at these events.
There are, no doubt, numerous pilots on this forum who have logged upwards of 10,000 hours and have never even scratched a machine. These highly-experienced pilots will probably admit that they have had a few near-misses in their careers but it is doubtful they wilfully engaged in careless flying that might endager themselves or others. I don't know how many hours this pilot has logged but already he has been involved in two incidents that have brought adverse attention both to himself and the heli community in Ireland. Not enough to say that there is a pattern developing here but you never know.
500 Fan.
I haven't flown with the pilot in question but I do know the people closely connected with the H269 he wrote off and others in the heli community here in Ireland who know the pilot and are not "surprised" at these events.
There are, no doubt, numerous pilots on this forum who have logged upwards of 10,000 hours and have never even scratched a machine. These highly-experienced pilots will probably admit that they have had a few near-misses in their careers but it is doubtful they wilfully engaged in careless flying that might endager themselves or others. I don't know how many hours this pilot has logged but already he has been involved in two incidents that have brought adverse attention both to himself and the heli community in Ireland. Not enough to say that there is a pattern developing here but you never know.
500 Fan.
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FAA Airman search engine.
I asked the FAA in Oklahoma, and was told that the data base takes maximum 40 days from the plastic card being printed for any changes to be updated, so 2007 would be in date.
If in doubt, here is the number of the FAA in Oklahoma: +1-407-812-7700
If in doubt, here is the number of the FAA in Oklahoma: +1-407-812-7700
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The pilot in the 300 accident was 38 years old, according the report.
The pilot in the 500 incident is 48 years old, clearly another guy. He had 131.6 hours TT 8.6 P1 on the Hughes
The pilot in the 500 incident is 48 years old, clearly another guy. He had 131.6 hours TT 8.6 P1 on the Hughes
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Pprune sure is a good place to learn about the world.
Irish threads blow the image of Ireland being a friendly place full of kindhearted warm friendly people.
It's hard to tell if Ketchup has got a personal grudge against this guy or if he just enjoys hitting people when they're down and trying to make things even worse for them.
B
Irish threads blow the image of Ireland being a friendly place full of kindhearted warm friendly people.
It's hard to tell if Ketchup has got a personal grudge against this guy or if he just enjoys hitting people when they're down and trying to make things even worse for them.
B
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A student pilot certificate is not a license.
It is just a license (if you want to get really technical no FAA pilot holds a license, but rather a certificate) that carries heavy restrictions with what you can do with it.
Join Date: May 2001
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Schweizer Model 300...
Folks,
Clonshanny does appear to be an incredibly unlucky area.
According to the AAIU someone who lived in the same place as he does and also just happens to own a Hughes 500 arranged to rent a Schweizer Model 300 while his H500 was in the shop. The aircraft then unfortunately ran out of fuel while airborne.
Accident Page
PDF File
According to the report:
Clonshanny does appear to be an incredibly unlucky area.
According to the AAIU someone who lived in the same place as he does and also just happens to own a Hughes 500 arranged to rent a Schweizer Model 300 while his H500 was in the shop. The aircraft then unfortunately ran out of fuel while airborne.
Accident Page
PDF File
According to the report:
1 FACTUAL INFORMATION
1.1 Background
The Pilot operated another helicopter, a turbine powered Hughes 500, on behalf of the owner of this helicopter. The operating base was at the owner’s home at Clonshanny, Co. Offaly. The Hughes 500 was used to transport the owner to work locations throughout Ireland. At the time of the accident, this helicopter was undergoing maintenance and awaiting parts, and it was consequently not available to meet the transportation requirements of the owner. The Pilot of the accident helicopter made arrangements to hire-in the accident helicopter, G-CDTK, in order to meet the owner’s transportation needs. The Pilot contacted a company based at Enniskillen, in Northern Ireland, to hire G-CDTK for approximately 25 hours flying. On Friday 7 September 2007, he traveled to Enniskillen and picked up G-CDTK. He then flew it to the owner’s base at Clonshanny. On the following day, he flew the helicopter from Clonshanny to Cork Airport to deliver a passport. This flight was conducted at a high power setting to combat headwinds. The helicopter was refueled at Cork, taking on 110 Litres of Avgas. The helicopter then returned to Clonshanny. Another local flight, reportedly of approximately 15 minutes duration, was then flown in the local area.
No further flying was done in the helicopter until the accident flight on 12 September 2007.
...
At approximately 15.15 hrs, the helicopter was returning to Clonshanny. The Pilot stated that, at an altitude of 1,000 ft, as he selected the fuel booster pump to “ON”, the engine lost power. At this point the helicopter was within one mile of the base at Clonshanny. The Pilot stated that he initiated an auto-rotation and flared at the “height of a two storey house” The helicopter dropped vertically from this flare and struck the ground hard, without any forward speed.
1.3 Injuries
The Pilot and his passenger suffered injuries, consistent with a heavy vertical impact. The Pilot was discharged from hospital the following day. The passenger suffered spinal injuries that required surgery.
...
1.11 Pilot Interview
The Investigator met with the Pilot a few days after the accident. The Pilot participated fully in the interview. At the Pilot’s request, the owner of the turbine-powered helicopter was also present at this interview. A number of significant points arose. The owner and the Pilot jointly examined G-CDTK for fuel contents prior to the final departure. They both stated that the fuel gauge read about ½ full. They did not have a clean dip-stick but satisfied themselves that the tank was approximately half full by tapping on the outside. The Pilot was questioned about the low fuel warning light. He stated that he did not observe it coming on; in fact he observed no warning lights before the engine stoppage. He stated that he believed there was about 20 minutes duration remaining when the low fuel contents warning light comes on. He also stated that he found the lack of a clock in the cockpit a problem, as he had difficulty in keeping track of the fuel consumption rate without the benefit of a cockpit clock.
...
1.13 Licensing information
The Pilot had a valid Private Pilot’s Licence - Rotorcraft Helicopter with no restrictions, issued by the USA Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), in March 2007. He possessed a valid Second Class medical issued by an FAA-approved medical facility in Ireland.
...
3. CONCLUSIONS
(a) Findings
1. The helicopter engine stopped due to the fuel tank contents being reduced to zero.
1.1 Background
The Pilot operated another helicopter, a turbine powered Hughes 500, on behalf of the owner of this helicopter. The operating base was at the owner’s home at Clonshanny, Co. Offaly. The Hughes 500 was used to transport the owner to work locations throughout Ireland. At the time of the accident, this helicopter was undergoing maintenance and awaiting parts, and it was consequently not available to meet the transportation requirements of the owner. The Pilot of the accident helicopter made arrangements to hire-in the accident helicopter, G-CDTK, in order to meet the owner’s transportation needs. The Pilot contacted a company based at Enniskillen, in Northern Ireland, to hire G-CDTK for approximately 25 hours flying. On Friday 7 September 2007, he traveled to Enniskillen and picked up G-CDTK. He then flew it to the owner’s base at Clonshanny. On the following day, he flew the helicopter from Clonshanny to Cork Airport to deliver a passport. This flight was conducted at a high power setting to combat headwinds. The helicopter was refueled at Cork, taking on 110 Litres of Avgas. The helicopter then returned to Clonshanny. Another local flight, reportedly of approximately 15 minutes duration, was then flown in the local area.
No further flying was done in the helicopter until the accident flight on 12 September 2007.
...
At approximately 15.15 hrs, the helicopter was returning to Clonshanny. The Pilot stated that, at an altitude of 1,000 ft, as he selected the fuel booster pump to “ON”, the engine lost power. At this point the helicopter was within one mile of the base at Clonshanny. The Pilot stated that he initiated an auto-rotation and flared at the “height of a two storey house” The helicopter dropped vertically from this flare and struck the ground hard, without any forward speed.
1.3 Injuries
The Pilot and his passenger suffered injuries, consistent with a heavy vertical impact. The Pilot was discharged from hospital the following day. The passenger suffered spinal injuries that required surgery.
...
1.11 Pilot Interview
The Investigator met with the Pilot a few days after the accident. The Pilot participated fully in the interview. At the Pilot’s request, the owner of the turbine-powered helicopter was also present at this interview. A number of significant points arose. The owner and the Pilot jointly examined G-CDTK for fuel contents prior to the final departure. They both stated that the fuel gauge read about ½ full. They did not have a clean dip-stick but satisfied themselves that the tank was approximately half full by tapping on the outside. The Pilot was questioned about the low fuel warning light. He stated that he did not observe it coming on; in fact he observed no warning lights before the engine stoppage. He stated that he believed there was about 20 minutes duration remaining when the low fuel contents warning light comes on. He also stated that he found the lack of a clock in the cockpit a problem, as he had difficulty in keeping track of the fuel consumption rate without the benefit of a cockpit clock.
...
1.13 Licensing information
The Pilot had a valid Private Pilot’s Licence - Rotorcraft Helicopter with no restrictions, issued by the USA Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), in March 2007. He possessed a valid Second Class medical issued by an FAA-approved medical facility in Ireland.
...
3. CONCLUSIONS
(a) Findings
1. The helicopter engine stopped due to the fuel tank contents being reduced to zero.
Hovering AND talking
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unlucky
unfortunately
Cheers
Whirls
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I think it's interesting that he's on a student pilot certificate. Does that mean his CFI sign him off for this flight??? 
Or does that mean it's just another guy in Ireland flying around without a valid licence???
Usually the FAA isn't that slow with updating the page, and it usually never takes longer than 90 days to replace the temporary licence with a real one....
Or does that mean it's just another guy in Ireland flying around without a valid licence???
Usually the FAA isn't that slow with updating the page, and it usually never takes longer than 90 days to replace the temporary licence with a real one....
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From Bronx:
Bronx,
After recent events in Ireland, it is always interesting to see what type of certificate the said pilots have. I do not have a personal grudge against the pilot. I do however have an issue with people exploiting loop holes in aviation law. If you take your time to read through the trend, you might notice that I am in not 'hitting' this person when they are down. I have asked for clarity on regulations and have pointed out that the FAA records say he has a student certificate which I double checked by calling the FAA (a responsible move in my opinion)
Ireland is a very friendly place to work and live, but what I see written here is annoyance and questioning to why this blatant disregard to Irish Aviation law is being challenged. This in turn has given negative press to the helicopter industry once again, at a time when it is the last thing needed.
Just because you have a concealed weapons permit on a US registered gun, it does not allow me to walk around Ireland with it. I'd get arrested and charged. You can not argue this point, if you can, you would make a fantastic barrister.
This case is now becoming much more interesting now that the IAA have made, to my knowledge, the first prosecution of a helicopter pilot for acting in a dangerous manner. I do believe we are going to see many more summons to courts, and not just FAA certified pilots.
In a recent conversation with a friend, I was told that you may 'keep' a US N registered helicopter in the Ireland for a certain amount of time, to memory, 60 days I think. After which, you must either put it on the Irish register or move it out of the country. I have looked for this reg on the IAA website but can't find it so I can't vouch for it.
Also, I was told, that by right, to fly in Ireland on a foreign license, you must apply to the IAA for permission. This permission is to each aircraft that you request and is for a limited time only, again, circa 60 days. Also I have looked for this on the IAA website but couldn't find anything on it.
Maybe Flying Lawyer, Helipolarbear or someone in authority might be able to put some light on a clearly grey area.
Pprune sure is a good place to learn about the world.
Irish threads blow the image of Ireland being a friendly place full of kindhearted warm friendly people.
It's hard to tell if Ketchup has got a personal grudge against this guy or if he just enjoys hitting people when they're down and trying to make things even worse for them.
B
Irish threads blow the image of Ireland being a friendly place full of kindhearted warm friendly people.
It's hard to tell if Ketchup has got a personal grudge against this guy or if he just enjoys hitting people when they're down and trying to make things even worse for them.
B
After recent events in Ireland, it is always interesting to see what type of certificate the said pilots have. I do not have a personal grudge against the pilot. I do however have an issue with people exploiting loop holes in aviation law. If you take your time to read through the trend, you might notice that I am in not 'hitting' this person when they are down. I have asked for clarity on regulations and have pointed out that the FAA records say he has a student certificate which I double checked by calling the FAA (a responsible move in my opinion)
Ireland is a very friendly place to work and live, but what I see written here is annoyance and questioning to why this blatant disregard to Irish Aviation law is being challenged. This in turn has given negative press to the helicopter industry once again, at a time when it is the last thing needed.
Just because you have a concealed weapons permit on a US registered gun, it does not allow me to walk around Ireland with it. I'd get arrested and charged. You can not argue this point, if you can, you would make a fantastic barrister.
This case is now becoming much more interesting now that the IAA have made, to my knowledge, the first prosecution of a helicopter pilot for acting in a dangerous manner. I do believe we are going to see many more summons to courts, and not just FAA certified pilots.
In a recent conversation with a friend, I was told that you may 'keep' a US N registered helicopter in the Ireland for a certain amount of time, to memory, 60 days I think. After which, you must either put it on the Irish register or move it out of the country. I have looked for this reg on the IAA website but can't find it so I can't vouch for it.
Also, I was told, that by right, to fly in Ireland on a foreign license, you must apply to the IAA for permission. This permission is to each aircraft that you request and is for a limited time only, again, circa 60 days. Also I have looked for this on the IAA website but couldn't find anything on it.
Maybe Flying Lawyer, Helipolarbear or someone in authority might be able to put some light on a clearly grey area.
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In Ireland and the UK you can fly on an Irish/UK registered aircaft without any validation (involvement of the IAA/CAA) as a PPL VFR only so regardless of the license you hold (CPL,ATPL)
To work commercially you would need a validation of your foreign CPL/ATPL, which can only be applied for by an operator, has certain experience levels attached and would be valid for 1 year and can officially not be extended. These validation are rarely given to helicopter pilots unless they have tons of experience and the operator can't get a JAA licensed pilot. You would also have to do an Airlaw exam and flighttest.
A foreign student pilot license/certificate is NOT valid in Ireland. A FAA instructor cannot give flight instruction in Ireland/UK unless also JAA FI and working through a RTF or FTO.
To work commercially you would need a validation of your foreign CPL/ATPL, which can only be applied for by an operator, has certain experience levels attached and would be valid for 1 year and can officially not be extended. These validation are rarely given to helicopter pilots unless they have tons of experience and the operator can't get a JAA licensed pilot. You would also have to do an Airlaw exam and flighttest.
A foreign student pilot license/certificate is NOT valid in Ireland. A FAA instructor cannot give flight instruction in Ireland/UK unless also JAA FI and working through a RTF or FTO.
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ketchup
My knowledge of Irish aviation law is very limited. I did a case in Ireland some years ago, but that was assisting a local barrister because I didn't have rights of audience in Ireland. I haven't researched the various issues because I’m no longer permitted to comment on legal matters.
However, even if I was allowed to do so, I wouldn’t unless I knew or found something which might help the pilot.
In stark contrast to you, I'd just let the IAA investigators get on with their job and not say anything on a public forum which might give them ideas and possibly cause problems for a pilot - or more problems for a pilot already in trouble.
A responsible move to double check or a responsible move to take it upon yourself to call the FAA to try to find more information which could make things worse for the pilot?
If you’re right, it will mean more work for aviation lawyers but it will also make life more difficult for pilots in Ireland. (Apart, of course, from the perfect ones who never intentionally breach a regulation, never make a mistake and never make a poor judgment.)
Be careful what you wish for.
FL
Maybe Flying Lawyer ……………….. might be able to put some light on a clearly grey area.
However, even if I was allowed to do so, I wouldn’t unless I knew or found something which might help the pilot.
In stark contrast to you, I'd just let the IAA investigators get on with their job and not say anything on a public forum which might give them ideas and possibly cause problems for a pilot - or more problems for a pilot already in trouble.
Did I miss something or has the IAA once again?
I asked the FAA in Oklahoma
I have ………. double checked by calling the FAA (a responsible move in my opinion)
A responsible move to double check or a responsible move to take it upon yourself to call the FAA to try to find more information which could make things worse for the pilot?
This case is now becoming much more interesting now that the IAA have made, to my knowledge, the first prosecution of a helicopter pilot for acting in a dangerous manner. I do believe we are going to see many more summons to courts, and not just FAA certified pilots.
Be careful what you wish for.
FL
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 9th Oct 2008 at 21:39.
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You know I hate pilots who are just stupid and don't give a **** about the general safety of anyone but themselves. BUt also in same breath we fly helicopters for gods sake the beauty of them is they can land anywhere (within reason) so now we have to have all these ticks in boxes to land anywhere next thing you know it will be airports only (at a price)
So,to a casual observer;he flies the owner around the country to the owner`s work; he hires in another helicopter to do similar jobs; he only has an FAA ppl; the second aircraft is UK registered;he does not have an Irish or UK licence,and/or UK residence? If ,he only has an FAA licence,how can he fly a UK registered helo,without a valid type rating--the rest of us have to have one,for each type? He is obviously very rich,as he must pay half of the operating costs,for his friend`s trips to work,which we all know he does,as a friendly PPL,or ,would that be too presumptious???
Later;Strange that it doesn`t feature on the UK AAIB investigations site,even though someone was seriously injured; and the UK de-registered the a/c a
week later !!
Even later; and according to the Accident report,the a/c was overdue an inspection,by `adjusting `times incorrectly, invalidating the Cof A...!
Later;Strange that it doesn`t feature on the UK AAIB investigations site,even though someone was seriously injured; and the UK de-registered the a/c a
week later !!
Even later; and according to the Accident report,the a/c was overdue an inspection,by `adjusting `times incorrectly, invalidating the Cof A...!
Last edited by sycamore; 11th Oct 2008 at 20:28.
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Man gets ban over helicopter incident RTE
Monday, 24 November 2008 20:56
A 50-year-old man who landed a helicopter on the roof of a shopping centre in Athlone to get keys cut has been convicted of breaching aviation law.
Sean O'Brien of the Island, Ballycumber, Co Offaly, was also warned by Judge David Anderson at a sitting of the district court in Athlone that he faced a six-month prison sentence in Mountjoy if he tried to take control of any flying machine in the next 12 months.
Mr O'Brien landed his single engine helicopter on the roof of Texas Shopping Centre on 7 July last year.
The court was told it was illegal under aviation law to land an aircraft of this kind on any elevated helipad in this State.
Monday, 24 November 2008 20:56
A 50-year-old man who landed a helicopter on the roof of a shopping centre in Athlone to get keys cut has been convicted of breaching aviation law.
Sean O'Brien of the Island, Ballycumber, Co Offaly, was also warned by Judge David Anderson at a sitting of the district court in Athlone that he faced a six-month prison sentence in Mountjoy if he tried to take control of any flying machine in the next 12 months.
Mr O'Brien landed his single engine helicopter on the roof of Texas Shopping Centre on 7 July last year.
The court was told it was illegal under aviation law to land an aircraft of this kind on any elevated helipad in this State.