Air ambulance/ Police- winching/ onshore rescue
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This all seems to be going round in circles and turning into yet another Prune pissing contest, I think all the pertinent points have been covered and i for one am withdrawing now because it is turning into a 'I'm better than you' sketch, and i don't want to be in a position that casts a shadow on the great work that both SAR and AA's do.
I’m all for a winch, others aren’t……See ya
I’m all for a winch, others aren’t……See ya
A few years ago on a "Longsar"* exercise to the Swiss Air Force, I was privileged to have the opportunity to act as a 'survivor' during some mountain rescue training.
It all went very well (though after the winching exercise by Alouette, I joined 3 of my colleagues and 2 of our hosts in a Puma to be dropped off, un-briefed, up on a mountain ledge at 13,000ft. The Puma disappeared. Our hosts produced a bottle of champagne and 5 glasses. We toasted the SAF and the RAF. With the alcohol joining the adrenaline coursing through my body, together with the insidious effects of hypoxia and cold (no survival clothing!) , never was I so pleased to see that Puma return!)
The winchmen and winchops were aircraft engineers, tasked as required off the shop floor. The winch 'patter' was interesting; it was a made up mixture of 'baby talk' so it could be easily understood by any mixture of French, German or Italian speaking scratch rescue crews.
They had achieved many rescues in this way, in true mountainous terrain of the highest order! All without direct stretcher or casualty entry which could involve very airy space walks and stretcher carries, to which I can attest!
The SAF alouettes were not NVG cabs and night rescue was undertaken by REGA, a civilian organisation (we also visited), with their many (NVG equipped) bases covering any point in Switzerland within 15 minutes.
Many ways to skin that onshore cat!
*Longsar----an interesting exercise ( 'binned long ago, I expect, in these days of cut backs!) involving flying a UK SAR machine a fair way (for a helicopter) in order to practise navigation and flight planning and meet other rescue agencies. This one was from Leuchars, Scotland to Alpnach, Switzerland.
It all went very well (though after the winching exercise by Alouette, I joined 3 of my colleagues and 2 of our hosts in a Puma to be dropped off, un-briefed, up on a mountain ledge at 13,000ft. The Puma disappeared. Our hosts produced a bottle of champagne and 5 glasses. We toasted the SAF and the RAF. With the alcohol joining the adrenaline coursing through my body, together with the insidious effects of hypoxia and cold (no survival clothing!) , never was I so pleased to see that Puma return!)
The winchmen and winchops were aircraft engineers, tasked as required off the shop floor. The winch 'patter' was interesting; it was a made up mixture of 'baby talk' so it could be easily understood by any mixture of French, German or Italian speaking scratch rescue crews.
They had achieved many rescues in this way, in true mountainous terrain of the highest order! All without direct stretcher or casualty entry which could involve very airy space walks and stretcher carries, to which I can attest!
The SAF alouettes were not NVG cabs and night rescue was undertaken by REGA, a civilian organisation (we also visited), with their many (NVG equipped) bases covering any point in Switzerland within 15 minutes.
Many ways to skin that onshore cat!
*Longsar----an interesting exercise ( 'binned long ago, I expect, in these days of cut backs!) involving flying a UK SAR machine a fair way (for a helicopter) in order to practise navigation and flight planning and meet other rescue agencies. This one was from Leuchars, Scotland to Alpnach, Switzerland.
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That's the third time Russell Sprout has left this thread (see his posts on 11th & 12th Feb). Do you think he means it this time? Using the age old get out clause of labelling the thread a pissing contest seems like a recognition of a lost argument to me.
When Crab and 3D Cam start to agree, people sit up and take notice!
When Crab and 3D Cam start to agree, people sit up and take notice!
Last edited by Vie sans frontieres; 19th Feb 2008 at 19:28.
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Just wanted the last word
but all this baiting is very addictive!!!!
Just to add fuel to the fire.... One of the winchmen on my CSRO's course was an ex VC10 trolley dolly load master.... talk about non aircrew doing aircrew work, think i'd prefer having a qualified paramedic with 5 years aviation experience tugging my rope..... especially one of Berties that are nearly ready to go solo.....
but all this baiting is very addictive!!!!Just to add fuel to the fire.... One of the winchmen on my CSRO's course was an ex VC10 trolley dolly load master.... talk about non aircrew doing aircrew work, think i'd prefer having a qualified paramedic with 5 years aviation experience tugging my rope..... especially one of Berties that are nearly ready to go solo.....
Maybe this flouncing out and leaving the thread when you're losing is an AA thing..............
Russell, as the Mental as Anything song said: "If you're leaving me, can I come too?"
Crab, that last sentence about doctors in your "reply" to me was priceless - I'm printing it off now for keeps. As an example of the "All coal is black, some cats are black, so all cats must be made of coal" reasoning method I really don't think we'll see its equal.
Crab, that last sentence about doctors in your "reply" to me was priceless - I'm printing it off now for keeps. As an example of the "All coal is black, some cats are black, so all cats must be made of coal" reasoning method I really don't think we'll see its equal.
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Crab
You lost this thread many posts ago. But of course you only see it from your viewpoint and will not listen to anyone who varies from that. Fingers in the ears, saying "La la la". Talk about in denial!
3D
Read my post. "To the same extent". So you agree. 
You lost this thread many posts ago. But of course you only see it from your viewpoint and will not listen to anyone who varies from that. Fingers in the ears, saying "La la la". Talk about in denial!
3D
Not as often as your guys see trauma granted
whoate - I was never going to 'win' this thread because all the decisions have already been made and YAA seem determined to take on this capability - good luck to them - I will remain sceptical about both the need and the wisdom of this exercise.
Thud - I take that drivel to mean I was right then
Thud - I take that drivel to mean I was right then
I'm just trying to work out who it is - it's a Mk3A and post FLIR/MSS modification so it's quite recent.
His hand signals are crap and since there is no zapper snapper visible he (as well as the other guy) probably got a good belt of static
His hand signals are crap
and since there is no zapper snapper visible he (as well as the other guy) probably got a good belt of static
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Crab is obviously right! Leave it to the Service Professionals. Otherwise we'll have 21 year olds with less than 1000 hours winching from single engined helicopters, at night even. Heaven forbid!
Oops! Sounds rather like Portland SAR in early 70's.
Oops! Sounds rather like Portland SAR in early 70's.
Originally Posted by Sandy Toad
Crab is obviously right! Leave it to the Service Professionals. Otherwise we'll have 21 year olds with less than 1000 hours winching from single engined helicopters, at night even. Heaven forbid!
Oops! Sounds rather like Portland SAR in early 70's.
Oops! Sounds rather like Portland SAR in early 70's.
The joys of winch training in a Whirlwind 7, with the dulcet Irish tones of CPO Mooney commenting on his feet getting wet: whilst sitting in the doorway
Then again, 155 hours was a lot for a 19 year old 
1st front line live SAR would have been around 5-600 hours TT, IIRC. Happy days, must stop that lamp from swinging...........
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I'm younger than you John - just - and was ahead of you coursewise - just - but still reckon was 21 by time finished first jungly front line tour and ended up at 771 as Jungly 3!
then had to subject the crew to a risky trek over the ridge with all the kit. The casualty then had to await a land team for extraction
Of course there will be a delay while it turns up (so call it sooner!), but no more delay than a risky trek over the ridge carrying kit and extraction by a land team. Also would save the casualty the discomfort of a long carry, and save the rescue personnel the risks of trekking over the ridge and carrying the cas out over awkward terrain. And the SAR helo wouldn't have gone home when it got dark!
Team Crab missed a priceless early comment by Russell, perhaps the most untrue statement on this whole long thread:
As for All weather Op's, SAR can not provide anything more than a AA can when the weather sets in apart from operating over the sea where there is nothing to bump into. If anyone can explain how IFR hill side rescues work then please crack on......
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Not necessarily so don't ya know? I'd have thought that your time at MW would have taught you not to judge others by your own low social standards. 
Best Wishes
Maybe this flouncing out and leaving the thread when you're losing is an AA thing..............
Best Wishes
Last edited by A.Agincourt; 2nd Mar 2008 at 20:41.