Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Rotorheads
Reload this Page >

UK SAR Harmonisation

Rotorheads A haven for helicopter professionals to discuss the things that affect them

UK SAR Harmonisation

Old 6th Mar 2008, 16:02
  #141 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 321
Engineers wages: It's no real secret if you know where to look.

Most MOD connected contracts offer in the mid-to-highish 20k. Most commercial helicopter operators (non-offshore) pay mid 30k. Offshore operators pay 40k+.

These are general estimates, before anyone jumps down my throat, depends on company and contracts they are supporting etc, etc..
nodrama is offline  
Old 6th Mar 2008, 18:47
  #142 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 273
Crab
Thats what you get with ageing aircraft.
sox6 is offline  
Old 6th Mar 2008, 19:21
  #143 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: PLANET ZOG
Posts: 306
Crab.
Engine out three times? This will be the last then, before you change the engine and HSS ? Does the Gnome still have the detuning weights on the support tube? That's not a clue, just a question because the CT58 doesn't.
The 3D Cam is the bit inside the FCU that basically controls everything the FCU does.(Other than the seat/speed select interface.) A piece of metal with various profiles and cambers machined onto it. If I had a piccie then I would post it. As 212man said previously, all done using a slide rule. No computers in those days. Engineers were real engineers then!
Now you have the facts about salaries as well. See why good old Wastelands failed to tempt many people? Doing things on the cheap, as usual!! But still ripping off the taxpayer!
3D CAM is offline  
Old 7th Mar 2008, 06:15
  #144 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 8,046
So what does the SARH future hold for the engineering side then? If there is a dearth of licensed engineers, where will CHC/Bristow/whoever get their engineers from? None of the guys on the AW/VT contract are licensed and if the 6 RAF and 1 RN (Culdrose is very unlikely to lose its SAR) that is another 42 engineers plus eng managers to find from nowhere. Let the poaching begin

This is another financial burden that is borne by the military - training engineers - and one which will have to be factored in to make SARH sustainable in the future.

Interestingly, on the employment of ex-mil front, most of the people I know who have left recently have stepped straight into training jobs because of the quality of their CVs and their professional capabilities - how come these posts can't be filled from the civilian sector?
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 7th Mar 2008, 08:15
  #145 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Nigeria
Age: 53
Posts: 4,698
Crab, I thought I had a picture but can't find one. Visualise a coke can that you stepped on and only partialy crushed - that's what a 3-D cam looks like, only it's designed like that. Another way to think of it is if you have seen the 3-D computer drawn fuel scheduling/mapping graphs that a car ECU uses, then carve one from a cylinder of metal.

Having said all that - the 212 looks like the latest in FADEC control when viewed side by side!
212man is online now  
Old 7th Mar 2008, 08:50
  #146 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 321
.....and poaching it will be! It's a sellers market.
nodrama is offline  
Old 7th Mar 2008, 11:12
  #147 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Newcastle Uk
Posts: 56
Crab

Quote:- "Interestingly, on the employment of ex-mil front, most of the people I know who have left recently have stepped straight into training jobs because of the quality of their CVs and their professional capabilities"


Safe to say this won't be happening to you Crab
Rescue1 is offline  
Old 7th Mar 2008, 14:41
  #148 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: NORTH
Posts: 17
Talking

Crab

Some of your thoughts are well meaning and valid, others verging on humourous, but always let down by your overall attitude. A shame.

A word of advise

Until you have taken and passed your CIVILIAN exams you are NOT QUALIFIED to even fly rubber dogshit out of Hong Kong
doorstopper is offline  
Old 7th Mar 2008, 15:28
  #149 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 8,046
Doorstopper - just to put you back in your box, I have held an ATPL(H) since 1991 - is that good enough for you?

Rescue 1 - I dunno, just how many A2 QHI/IRE SAR boys with recent training officer experience on front-line SAR squadrons do you have working for you
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 7th Mar 2008, 16:28
  #150 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: midlands
Age: 55
Posts: 172
Lightbulb

Crabb

Haha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Its taken you over 3 years but you got there! Someone final did the not qualified to fly rubber dog doo doo etc! You have been baiting them for so long and then you go for the big reveal! Ha! They put em up and you knock em down!

Anyway, your wrong!

Not about that but about engineers. Some of us are already looking at how you train the next generation - and have been looking at this for some time. So, yep poaching for some areas, but everyone recognises the shortage and what needs to be done. Now some of us are actually out there trying to solve it and are not relying on the military.

And not every contract pays the same. If you get time to plan you can reflect market forces in your bids for SAR-H. Then cut back latter when they havent got the money!

SARREMF signing off from Poland. Damn! Dont tell him your name Pike!
SARREMF is offline  
Old 7th Mar 2008, 16:33
  #151 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Truro
Posts: 128
I have to ask Crab, did you get your ATPL via the CAA dispensation for the QHIs and 38 group or did you actually sweat?

The reason I ask. I was working out of Sumburgh, bumbling along in a 61 with a former service colleague who was a QHI, hadn't sat the exams as he was given the dipensation, and was then the training Capt for the operation. He asked, "How does an ILS work?" I told him I was busy and this wasn't a check ride. He looked sheepish and told me it was the only safe environment he could ask the question as he had never had to study for the exams.
Bootneck is offline  
Old 7th Mar 2008, 17:20
  #152 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Europe
Posts: 132
Bootneck,

You took the words out of my mouth.
check is offline  
Old 7th Mar 2008, 20:08
  #153 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 8,046
Bootneck - Lights, law and loading were the exams I took and frankly when I see some of the irrelevant sh*te that some have to learn for their ATPL I am very glad I benefitted from the 18 GP maritime (yes I was a SAR boy then as well) dispensations. Are there some green-eyed monsters out there?

And yes, I do know how an ILS works.....it's pixies isn't it?

SARREMF - yes I love it when a plan comes together!! It is the short term shortage of engineers that needs addressing, fairly urgently by the sound of it so good luck. Poland eh......try nicking the carp out of their lakes and see how they like it
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 7th Mar 2008, 20:19
  #154 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Truro
Posts: 128
Lights, law and loading were the exams I took and frankly when I see some of the irrelevant sh*te that some have to learn for their ATPL


I suppose it's too easy using this internettyweb device to be supercilious, so I won't. However, please do continue using the yellow aeroplanes, as your preferred option. Serious IFR work requires knowledge. (Before you ask, yes I can use a hook.)

Crab, start digging a deep sangar. Innnnnnkkkuuummmmmin!
Bootneck is offline  
Old 7th Mar 2008, 20:36
  #155 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: UK
Age: 68
Posts: 1,118
.......you didnt need to be a QHI or in 38 gp in the early 90's!!...

.............. 2000 mil hrs and "combat ready" (or SAR "C" cat) and a mil instrument rating did nicely!

(with Air Law, Lights, RT, class 1 med and a civvie LST for your licence issue.)

Mine hung on the wall of my office inside a glass fronted box annotated;

"In Case of Emergency; Break Glass"

In the end it came in quite handy.
Bertie Thruster is offline  
Old 8th Mar 2008, 05:11
  #156 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 8,046
Bootneck - maybe that's why we all have full procedural IR s in SAR then and why I get to be the Command IRE to examine and award IRs and IRE's.

Maybe such knowledge wasn't required when you were in but now the lads and lasses do a procedural course at DHFS as part of their Shawbury course.

Nice try at being supercilious but you just about managed petty The irrelevant shite was some of the trans-atlantic planning I have seen people swot up on - things may have changed in the exams now, the CAA may have made them more relevant to helicopters but I doubt it.

Bertie - exactly the same reason I got mine in the first place - just in case.
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 8th Mar 2008, 05:36
  #157 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: midlands
Age: 55
Posts: 172
I dont believe it!

What dispensations!

I did ALL 15 exams for the ATPL(A) then had to pay for the tech group for rotary and only sit the P of F exam! I loved calculating the mid sector weight of the fictional aircraft [Tristar] so you could work out some blah about blah! [B Cat Op Captain with lots of hours at the time!]

Did learn a lot about avionics I didn't know. Not sure how relevant it was though? Do I really need to know about the lobes? Knowlege of Loran and Decca was second to none - and removed from the aircraft - after studying.

Anyway, the slides rules for the civy side were so much cooler than the RAF ones! Not sure how they work mind, but wow impressive look!Thats a joke! I do know how it works! You twizzle the inner duffer thingy against the outer bezel and read the answer at the triangle! Simple really!


Crabb - Poland was just to put you off the sent! Greetings from the QHCI thread!
SARREMF is offline  
Old 8th Mar 2008, 09:28
  #158 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 321
Crab, here's an example of why recruiting engineers for MOD SAR is a problem:

Senior Technician (Avionics)
United Kingdom, South West West Yorkshire
Salary: 24594 - 26694 per annum
Permanent opportunities in helicopter engineering and maintenance in search and rescue. We are recruiting forces or ex-forces personnel for vacancies in search and rescue (SAR) helicopter engineering and maintenance in the UK. We are looking for senior technicians with avionics experience at Boulmer (Tyneside), Leconfield (Hull), Chivenor (N Devon), Valley (N Wales) and Wattisham (Ipswich). Applicants will need to have reached Corporal/Leading Hand level or higher. Civilians with NVQ level 3 and apprenticeship with relevant experience will be considered. Candidates will need
Contract: Permanent
21/12/2007

I was earning that in the Mob back in 1999 as a S/NCO technician.

An avionics engineer nowadays wouldn't put their overalls on for that (it's a difficult enough task to get them to do so anyway).
nodrama is offline  
Old 8th Mar 2008, 11:01
  #159 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Up north
Posts: 687
Bootneck

Slight thread creep but your comment "Serious IFR work requires knowledge" did make me chuckle. Although I left the RAF some time ago, as an IRE, I think that the practical knowledge and skills of a military pilot far outways what a pure civilain pilot brings to the table.

That is not to say that a civilian trained pilot is not a perfectly capable and safe operator it is just not true what you implied in your post.

I have seen inexperienced civilian trained pilots get into a right old tizz when the RNAV fails or gives odd readings as they are so reliant on it and will believe the figures despite what you see out of the window. One example - RNAV wind at 90deg to windlanes - RNAV wind believed despite gentle hint that it was odd that forecast wind was 90deg out!! Also unfamiliarity with how to do a radio aids nav just using VOR/DME/NDB when RNAV packs up.

Your other comment :-

"I may be out of touch on timings these days but a Super Puma or S61 would go into the Bristow heavy hangar for a total strip down to the rivets, then be back online, shiny new paint job and air tested in three weeks. Unbelievable, maybe, but it's true. "

Is totally unbelievable- I have never seen a 61 or Puma come out of a G Check in 3 weeks - 6 weeks more likely although we are waiting for an a/c to come out of a G check that went in in July 07!!

Civilian and RAF/RN have both got enormous amounts of experience and operating methods to bring to the new SAR organisation but it will need skilled amalgamation to bring the best out of both systems.

HF
Hummingfrog is offline  
Old 8th Mar 2008, 11:12
  #160 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 321
Bootneck never actually said it had gone in for a G check.....
nodrama is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.