UK SAR Harmonisation
Crabette.
Wow, that's me told! Are you going to have a go at Crab as well?
However, you are right, we will get on with it and make the best of a bad deal! But I will still say things as I see them, no matter who I work for! For the record, I actually think the 139 is a nice aircraft. Just not for SAR in the UK. We had no say in the choice, but then you already know that. I am not anti change, in fact I have been saying for a long time that the good old 61 should be put out to grass. But only if the right aircraft was taking its place. (Has the 139 or 92 got 360 degree radar?)
Leo.
Stats can tell you anything you wish. But surely it is better to go for an aircraft with a larger carrying capability and not have to use that capacity very often, than have one that will have to keep going back to shore for fuel every 2hrs?
3D
Wow, that's me told! Are you going to have a go at Crab as well?
However, you are right, we will get on with it and make the best of a bad deal! But I will still say things as I see them, no matter who I work for! For the record, I actually think the 139 is a nice aircraft. Just not for SAR in the UK. We had no say in the choice, but then you already know that. I am not anti change, in fact I have been saying for a long time that the good old 61 should be put out to grass. But only if the right aircraft was taking its place. (Has the 139 or 92 got 360 degree radar?)
Leo.
Stats can tell you anything you wish. But surely it is better to go for an aircraft with a larger carrying capability and not have to use that capacity very often, than have one that will have to keep going back to shore for fuel every 2hrs?
3D
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leopold bloom
In your scenrio there would need to be several aircraft. But if the two nearest bases have mediums rather than heavies the whole thing becomes far more fraught.
In your scenrio there would need to be several aircraft. But if the two nearest bases have mediums rather than heavies the whole thing becomes far more fraught.
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Just to add, you've all seen CGIJ, but SARD is also in town...
Could anyone tell me a little history on S-61 'India Juliet' and her status, will she be gone now these have arrived, does anyone know about her future?
Could anyone tell me a little history on S-61 'India Juliet' and her status, will she be gone now these have arrived, does anyone know about her future?
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What is a most likely 'worst case scenario'. We tend to take a cargo ship, Napoli or Ice Prince for example. This is most certainly more than two.
Whilst it is wonderful to have all this new 'kit' it will not serve the purpose.
May I suggest that there has clearly been a total lack of understanding or sense of reality displayed by civil servants in this 'change' decision.
As coal face operators you will all have to be accountable now for the decisions made by a faceless civil servant in the MCA or whereever else they may be who has already forced you all into making the decision of who will live and who will not. When you make the wrong decision, or take the one that does not sit well with them on that particular day, then, speaking from experience, you will be hung out to dry. Its very lonely out there blowing in the breeze!
A few years ago, I was told to my face by about the most senior person you could have got in this business that at the very worst, Solent would be an S-92 and Portland a 139.
I'm glad the rotary family are getting new kit, I'm unconvinced though that the 139 is the right kit.
Sadly I think this will be most felt by the casualty left to a forlorn hope as it dissappears into the distance without them.
Can those of us that stand up to the plate for this role, not form some type of 'stakeholders' group to influence such decisions as this one which has been made for us?
Whilst it is wonderful to have all this new 'kit' it will not serve the purpose.
May I suggest that there has clearly been a total lack of understanding or sense of reality displayed by civil servants in this 'change' decision.
As coal face operators you will all have to be accountable now for the decisions made by a faceless civil servant in the MCA or whereever else they may be who has already forced you all into making the decision of who will live and who will not. When you make the wrong decision, or take the one that does not sit well with them on that particular day, then, speaking from experience, you will be hung out to dry. Its very lonely out there blowing in the breeze!
A few years ago, I was told to my face by about the most senior person you could have got in this business that at the very worst, Solent would be an S-92 and Portland a 139.
I'm glad the rotary family are getting new kit, I'm unconvinced though that the 139 is the right kit.
Sadly I think this will be most felt by the casualty left to a forlorn hope as it dissappears into the distance without them.
Can those of us that stand up to the plate for this role, not form some type of 'stakeholders' group to influence such decisions as this one which has been made for us?
Last edited by Tonka Toy; 23rd Mar 2008 at 23:23.
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Size matters
But surely it is better to go for an aircraft with a larger carrying capability and not have to use that capacity very often, than have one that will have to keep going back to shore for fuel every 2hrs?
In your scenario there would need to be several aircraft.
Zalt, again the same problem, no helicopter is big enough all the time, so how big is big enough?
Leo.
S92 all round the bases! I didn't mean to be confused, it just comes with age.
Tony.
G-BDIJ is the on call machine at Portland at this time. WB & MU are at Lee.
IJ is rumoured to be going to the SAR unit at Den Helder once Portland transitions. As for WB & MU the future is uncertain at this time.
3D
S92 all round the bases! I didn't mean to be confused, it just comes with age.
Tony.
G-BDIJ is the on call machine at Portland at this time. WB & MU are at Lee.
IJ is rumoured to be going to the SAR unit at Den Helder once Portland transitions. As for WB & MU the future is uncertain at this time.
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Newspeak
The operators at the coal face will make it work, and make it work very well, be they military or civilian.
The point is that the S92 and AW139 were announced with trumpets blaring and various announcements of being able to fly faster (true), further (false) and with greater endurance (also false). Replacing the S-61 with 139s also reduces the number of survivors that can be carried in one lift (the argument that increased TAS negates that is also false given the sort of distances travelled in south coast rescues). Therefore, the MCA are talking in 'Newspeak' as the improvements claimed are actually reductions in overall capability.
Or have I missed something?
HAL
The point is that the S92 and AW139 were announced with trumpets blaring and various announcements of being able to fly faster (true), further (false) and with greater endurance (also false). Replacing the S-61 with 139s also reduces the number of survivors that can be carried in one lift (the argument that increased TAS negates that is also false given the sort of distances travelled in south coast rescues). Therefore, the MCA are talking in 'Newspeak' as the improvements claimed are actually reductions in overall capability.
Or have I missed something?
HAL
Unfortunately, the phrase 'no lesser capability' which is supposed to be the saviour of SARH, was not applied to the interim contract - let us hope more sensible decisions are made for 2012. Most people, I believe, would have put a 92 at Lee and a 139 at Portland to cover most eventualities but someone somewhere obviously knows better.
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Wasn't it an RAF dominated committee who basically chose the aircraft and the contractor and the MCA had little to do with it apart from that bloke who left them after the contract was awarded to CHC and joined CHC.
The same committee is now chosing the bidder for SAR-H. If I were you Crab I'd go and have a chat with them! You never know they may listen!
The same committee is now chosing the bidder for SAR-H. If I were you Crab I'd go and have a chat with them! You never know they may listen!
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G-BDIJ is the on call machine at Portland at this time. WB & MU are at Lee.
IJ is rumoured to be going to the SAR unit at Den Helder once Portland transitions. As for WB & MU the future is uncertain at this time.
3D
IJ is rumoured to be going to the SAR unit at Den Helder once Portland transitions. As for WB & MU the future is uncertain at this time.
3D
Are there any plans to change the type at Den helder? Or just keep the 61.
"Wasn't it an RAF dominated committee who basically chose the aircraft and the contractor and the MCA had little to do with it apart from that bloke who left them after the contract was awarded to CHC and joined CHC.
The same committee is now chosing the bidder for SAR-H. If I were you Crab I'd go and have a chat with them! You never know they may listen!"
The same committee is now chosing the bidder for SAR-H. If I were you Crab I'd go and have a chat with them! You never know they may listen!"
Whilst the RAF will have offered opinion on the aircraft for the contract (because they were asked to by MCA), I don't believe the basing decisions were made by anyone in the military - that would have been a job for CHC and MCA.
The SAR experts have been asked to vet and score the SARH bids and it is now up to the committee who I think are mainly civil servants and MCA, not RAF, to make the decisions. Sadly there seem to be some members of the committee who think they know more about SAR than the SAR experts (the inevitable intellectual arrogance that comes with elevated position and rank) so they may well f**k the whole contract up anyway.
The SAR experts have been asked to vet and score the SARH bids and it is now up to the committee who I think are mainly civil servants and MCA, not RAF, to make the decisions. Sadly there seem to be some members of the committee who think they know more about SAR than the SAR experts (the inevitable intellectual arrogance that comes with elevated position and rank) so they may well f**k the whole contract up anyway.
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Crab,
No doubt you will get the usual barrage of abuse from the uninformed and those with an agenda but what you say is spot on. Perhaps Lost at Sea could provide a breakdown of the composition of the SAR-H IPT so that we can see whether his accusations carry any weight.
HAL
No doubt you will get the usual barrage of abuse from the uninformed and those with an agenda but what you say is spot on. Perhaps Lost at Sea could provide a breakdown of the composition of the SAR-H IPT so that we can see whether his accusations carry any weight.
HAL
Some slight amusement available if one looks at the 'table of contents' of the downloadable copy of "Review of UK Search & Rescue (SAR) Helicopter Provision and Coverage Criteria Report - June 2001"!
http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/2001_co...t-contents.pdf
http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/2001_co...t-contents.pdf
shut up and get on with it
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Originally Posted by HAL9000
Perhaps Lost at Sea could provide a breakdown of the composition of the SAR-H IPT so that we can see whether his accusations carry any weight.
He said in Feb 2006..
Originally Posted by [email protected]
I hope that the CHC provision of SAR will be far better than Bristows, and if so could well be due to the amount of involvement the RAF had in the process.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=196958&page=15
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=196958&page=15
Originally Posted by [email protected]
Wait and see if the contract under CHC really is the same as Bristow - I don't believe so, thanks to the involvement of the MoD the service provided will be superior whoever crews it.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=196958&page=17
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=196958&page=17
)Although now things aren’t going quite so well he and others seem to be distancing themselves from this and now CHC are the evil civilian SAR operators!
And in March 2008 he sarcastically remarks....
Surely not - the super-duper all singing and dancing SAR helicopter with less capability than the old one - so much for a seamless transition then
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...=308111&page=9
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...=308111&page=9
Originally Posted by Night Watchman
PS Note for your (crab’s) diary - Jul 07 I must stop hating Bristow and start hating CHC. They're all civilians doing SAR and not as perfect as me.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=196958&page=15
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=196958&page=15
Last edited by Lost at Sea; 25th Mar 2008 at 00:34.
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Well said Lost at Sea 
Crab has a small problem his memory it's the first stage of Age and Alzheimer's kicking in, Will he last till 2012 not sure it's a tough call.
R1
Crab has a small problem his memory
it's the first stage of Age and Alzheimer's kicking in, Will he last till 2012 not sure it's a tough call.R1
Lost at sea - I don't think I mentioned the composition of the SARH IPT in any of those quotes - I am afraid your mental competence is the problem here, not mine
All I said was that due to the fact the MCA couldn't get unbiased advice from industry (Bristows, CHC or others) because they all had vested interests, the MoD were asked for guidance and expertise in examining the interim contract.
That led to the formation of SARH which as you are now aware, is not comprised of light blue but is MCA and civil servants with one Sqn Ldr trying to keep some semblance of order.
As for CHC - they are providing a good service - it's just that some of the claims made regarding the platform's capability have not been substantiated - this is probably because the MCA do the press releases and don't quite understand the issues
Now what was the question again.......???????
All I said was that due to the fact the MCA couldn't get unbiased advice from industry (Bristows, CHC or others) because they all had vested interests, the MoD were asked for guidance and expertise in examining the interim contract.
That led to the formation of SARH which as you are now aware, is not comprised of light blue but is MCA and civil servants with one Sqn Ldr trying to keep some semblance of order.
As for CHC - they are providing a good service - it's just that some of the claims made regarding the platform's capability have not been substantiated - this is probably because the MCA do the press releases and don't quite understand the issues
Now what was the question again.......???????