UK SAR Harmonisation
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Hummingfrog, I think we have seen pilots of both sides lose it in busy situations. I agree absolutely that the military pilot brings many advantages to the civilian world, one of which has to be the positive experience gained from having pushed the envelope in order to get the job done. Basically we had been given the opportunity to frighten ourselves 'gasless' and got away with it, if lucky, something very few young civvy pilots have the chance to do. The knowledge gained from pushing the line allowed us to know when enough was enough; that enabled military pilots to stand up to managerial pressures when the weather was beyond reasonable levels.
My experience of pilots allowed a dispensation from the exam requirements for licensing was from an earlier era, both as a line pilot and a sim instructor. I still believe there should be a level playing field, it's fairer on those who don't have to do the exams.
It's great that the, military are now working within the procedural world, and have knowledge of all the nav-aids available, certainly not the case from the 70s and 80s. As I stated previously, it's necessary to have a thorough knowledge of all aspects of instrument flying especially if your work environment requires you to be IMC for most of the day or night, not just to escape from the umballah.
The timings from the service schedules are correct. It may appear unbelievable, but that's a perception problem on the military mind, not for those working in a civilian environment. I have nothing but praise for the licensed engineers, working shifts, in extreme conditions on and offshore, they work wonders. Nobody but an engineer is qualified to denigrate them.
It bears remembering that a civilian machine worth many millions of dollars is losing money for it's owner when sat in a shed being polished. If it's fixable then every effort is made to replace parts and get them strapped on, the machine tested and back on line. I know it's hard to get the head around, but it's life out of a green, blue, grey suit.
Example. China, Super Puma died late PM. We were on the phone (8 hours ahead of UK time) to the Aberdeen night shift in minutes, before daybreak the part was in the hands of the courier en-route to Amsterdam, then on to Hong Kong where my smiley face retrieved it, took it through customs and then to the machine. We were flying again within 36 hours. Money was one factor, but there was also an element of pride in getting our machine ready to go again. Then we got the REMF from Redhill on the phone complaining about us not following procedures............ F**k off sounds very similar in Cantonese.
My experience of pilots allowed a dispensation from the exam requirements for licensing was from an earlier era, both as a line pilot and a sim instructor. I still believe there should be a level playing field, it's fairer on those who don't have to do the exams.
It's great that the, military are now working within the procedural world, and have knowledge of all the nav-aids available, certainly not the case from the 70s and 80s. As I stated previously, it's necessary to have a thorough knowledge of all aspects of instrument flying especially if your work environment requires you to be IMC for most of the day or night, not just to escape from the umballah. The timings from the service schedules are correct. It may appear unbelievable, but that's a perception problem on the military mind, not for those working in a civilian environment. I have nothing but praise for the licensed engineers, working shifts, in extreme conditions on and offshore, they work wonders. Nobody but an engineer is qualified to denigrate them.
It bears remembering that a civilian machine worth many millions of dollars is losing money for it's owner when sat in a shed being polished. If it's fixable then every effort is made to replace parts and get them strapped on, the machine tested and back on line. I know it's hard to get the head around, but it's life out of a green, blue, grey suit.
Example. China, Super Puma died late PM. We were on the phone (8 hours ahead of UK time) to the Aberdeen night shift in minutes, before daybreak the part was in the hands of the courier en-route to Amsterdam, then on to Hong Kong where my smiley face retrieved it, took it through customs and then to the machine. We were flying again within 36 hours. Money was one factor, but there was also an element of pride in getting our machine ready to go again. Then we got the REMF from Redhill on the phone complaining about us not following procedures............ F**k off sounds very similar in Cantonese.
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record breaker
3 weeks must be a new record for for a total strip down of a 332L and flight tested.
I have seen a 332L come in for new paint and interior in 4 weeks but not paint stripped or inspection.
I have seen a 332L come in for new paint and interior in 4 weeks but not paint stripped or inspection.
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The bendy toys must have slowed down.
It was a standard routine, amazing to watch and certainly a matter of pride that they achieved the dates. The heavy hangar doors opened, swallowed the machine, and they opened 3 weeks later to evict the butterfly.
It was a standard routine, amazing to watch and certainly a matter of pride that they achieved the dates. The heavy hangar doors opened, swallowed the machine, and they opened 3 weeks later to evict the butterfly.
70 s and 80s eh? Bootneck you do know it is 2008 don't you?
I think I heard the sound of a (boot)neck being wound back in
I do sometimes get the impression that, far from the utopian dream they imagined, many ex-military pilots find life in the 'real world' far less appealing than it seemed from the other side of the fence. Perhaps it is the loss of status and authority, maybe it is that you can no longer do the 'right thing', you can only do what is right for the balance sheet. Maybe it is because so much of commercial flying is glorified bus driving (I don't mean that the pilots are less capable, only that they don't get the challenges to exercise their expertise as often). Whilst the removal of the F**k-factor maybe the most significant difference between military and civilian life, do the other benefits outweigh the loss of the camaraderie and the Fun-factor that still (just about) exists in the military?
I am sure I will get flamed for this one but I am just making an observation on how some PPruners come across on various threads.
I think I heard the sound of a (boot)neck being wound back in
I do sometimes get the impression that, far from the utopian dream they imagined, many ex-military pilots find life in the 'real world' far less appealing than it seemed from the other side of the fence. Perhaps it is the loss of status and authority, maybe it is that you can no longer do the 'right thing', you can only do what is right for the balance sheet. Maybe it is because so much of commercial flying is glorified bus driving (I don't mean that the pilots are less capable, only that they don't get the challenges to exercise their expertise as often). Whilst the removal of the F**k-factor maybe the most significant difference between military and civilian life, do the other benefits outweigh the loss of the camaraderie and the Fun-factor that still (just about) exists in the military?
I am sure I will get flamed for this one but I am just making an observation on how some PPruners come across on various threads.
Crab
You are right in some ways I am a glorified bus/taxi driver (well paid though
) and but my priorities while flying are only slightly different to what yours are. We both have to satisfy the client - in my case the oil company and in my RAF career it was either the Army or the survivor. The balance sheet has nothing to do with how I operate so I am not sure what you mean by doing the right thing?
The main difference is that to the oil company I am just another contractor who is expected to provide a service. While this may be fairly routine during normal days it does get very challenging when the weather is on the limits and the customer wants max payloads. That is when I earn my money. The camaraderie is still there amongst the pilot work force but the fun factor may not be the same. There again I am only expected to fly the helicopter while providing the best possible payloads to the customer, nothing else so my working day begins and ends around that. There are no secondary duties.
I think that the major challenge that ex-mil pilots have to face is the realisation that they are not in a position of influence when they join an offshore helicopter company. They are required to fly and that is it - management manages and pilots fly - once you realise that it is brilliant!!
I have the best of both worlds, however, as I also fly for the RAF in my spare time and get the "fun factor" by being upside down at 4000ft
giving air experience to an ATC cadet.
HF
You are right in some ways I am a glorified bus/taxi driver (well paid though
) and but my priorities while flying are only slightly different to what yours are. We both have to satisfy the client - in my case the oil company and in my RAF career it was either the Army or the survivor. The balance sheet has nothing to do with how I operate so I am not sure what you mean by doing the right thing?The main difference is that to the oil company I am just another contractor who is expected to provide a service. While this may be fairly routine during normal days it does get very challenging when the weather is on the limits and the customer wants max payloads. That is when I earn my money. The camaraderie is still there amongst the pilot work force but the fun factor may not be the same. There again I am only expected to fly the helicopter while providing the best possible payloads to the customer, nothing else so my working day begins and ends around that. There are no secondary duties.
I think that the major challenge that ex-mil pilots have to face is the realisation that they are not in a position of influence when they join an offshore helicopter company. They are required to fly and that is it - management manages and pilots fly - once you realise that it is brilliant!!
I have the best of both worlds, however, as I also fly for the RAF in my spare time and get the "fun factor" by being upside down at 4000ft
giving air experience to an ATC cadet.HF
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Paramedic
The paramedics will be the civil aircrew already. They will be trained by the RAF at the SAR school of medicine when the school moves to RAF Valley by the modular route. Not by serco. Some of the guys form Bond have completed the course and CHC have started putting there men up for it.
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I do sometimes get the impression that, far from the utopian dream they imagined, many ex-military pilots find life in the 'real world' far less appealing than it seemed from the other side of the fence.
Like most things in life, you only get out what you put in to it. If you come out of the military and expected to be treated as a God by the other pilots who have had to pay thousands of pounds to get their careers going, then you will not like the reception that you'll get. However, if you use your best CRM (crew co-operation) skills and get stuck in, then there isn't really any difference from the military when it comes to flying. I expect many of the HEMS, Police and SAR pilots love their work without all the extra nause that the military expects you to do. As Hummingfrog says, you come to do a job and that is to fly. Once your shift or flight is over, you go home again.
I left the military 11 years ago having served almost 18 years. I loved the flying but the other nause of station secondary duties and being duty officer became to make the life less enjoyable. Since leaving I will admit that I miss some of the camaraderie, but life is what you make it. I go to work to fly, and as a Captain I have as much responsibility for aircraft and crew as I did in the military. Now I have up to 19 pax on a leg to be responsible for as well. Some days the flying is mundane, others working like a one-armed paper-hangar. Same as the military.
As well as a more stable life-style, the pay is generally better (well on the North Sea or SAR anyway) and the opportunities are there should you wish to take a training or management route for your career. In my company we have training captains from both routes, civil and military.
In the end it all depends on your attitude to the job. Have a bad attitude about it and you wont get far. In my experience there are very FEW ex-military pilots who have regretted leaving the military, but they are all glad that they have had the opportunity to do SH, SAR, Jungly or whatever, as it has given them extra experience compared to those that have followed the civil route. Mind you, talk to some of the latter who have worked in Africa and they have some "interesting" stories to tell.
As with civil SAR, Crab, don't knock it until you have tried it! You may be pleasantly surprised
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Or put another way
Now I know what working for a living really is!
Would I change a thing? Well yes of course, but that nice person in China keeps sending me emails with tablets that will make it grow!
jonnyloooove. Do you know something the SAR-H IPT dont? Like who won the competition already? Tell us go on! Tell Tell
Now I know what working for a living really is!
Would I change a thing? Well yes of course, but that nice person in China keeps sending me emails with tablets that will make it grow!
jonnyloooove. Do you know something the SAR-H IPT dont? Like who won the competition already? Tell us go on! Tell Tell
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Perhaps it is the loss of status and authority, maybe it is that you can no longer do the 'right thing', you can only do what is right for the balance sheet.
Crab, it may be 2008 but some things never change, the main one being the attitude of some, not all, just some RAF pilots.
Two examples.
One chief pilot, ex-crab told me I should show him more respect as he was a retired Sqn Ldr. Well stuff me sideways, if I'd known about his condition I'd have shown him a damn sight more of my backside.
The other guy was so anally retentive that, during our first flight together, he had worked out our fuel burn three times before we were 10 miles from Aberdeen. I asked to borrow his whizwheel and put in my door pocket, where it stayed for the rest of the trip.
In Bristows there were so many Sqn members from all three services it felt very much like a crewroom, the engineers were of the same blend. I repeat, your attitude may be tolerated, grudgingly, in your present environment. If you go into the real world and maintain it, then somebody is going to Rembrandt you.
Crab, it may be 2008 but some things never change, the main one being the attitude of some, not all, just some RAF pilots.
Two examples.
One chief pilot, ex-crab told me I should show him more respect as he was a retired Sqn Ldr. Well stuff me sideways, if I'd known about his condition I'd have shown him a damn sight more of my backside.
The other guy was so anally retentive that, during our first flight together, he had worked out our fuel burn three times before we were 10 miles from Aberdeen. I asked to borrow his whizwheel and put in my door pocket, where it stayed for the rest of the trip.
In Bristows there were so many Sqn members from all three services it felt very much like a crewroom, the engineers were of the same blend. I repeat, your attitude may be tolerated, grudgingly, in your present environment. If you go into the real world and maintain it, then somebody is going to Rembrandt you.
Last edited by Bootneck; 9th Mar 2008 at 20:27.
Bootneck - it rather sounds to me as though you have a bit of a chip on your shoulder regarding the Light Blue, fancy those nasty ex RAF chaps doing something professional like working out fuel burn, tut tut.
Never mind, you can take the man out of the marines but you can't take the marine out of the man - I'm sure resorting to physical violence goes down a treat in civvy st - excellent CRM
Never mind, you can take the man out of the marines but you can't take the marine out of the man - I'm sure resorting to physical violence goes down a treat in civvy st - excellent CRM
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Shark!!!!!!! I've landed a shark.................
Crab, nothing wrong with a blue suit. Don't like violence either, seen enough, as many of us have; but I do like a tad of common dog.
Crab, nothing wrong with a blue suit. Don't like violence either, seen enough, as many of us have; but I do like a tad of common dog.
Bootneck - not quite sure how you think I bit then - the use of smilies to indicate jocular banter was clearly not taught at Lympstone(look there's another one)
(look there's another one)
Chief Bottle Washer
Girls (apols to Whirls, etc),
How about we get away from the jocular banter/fishing/mine's bigger than yours and discuss the topic? Harmonisation springs to mind
Otherwise it will all end in tears, and they won't be mine
How about we get away from the jocular banter/fishing/mine's bigger than yours and discuss the topic? Harmonisation springs to mind
Otherwise it will all end in tears, and they won't be mine
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No! Not the Chinese burn in the playground. 
Apologies for the departure from thread SP.
Harmonisation of resources can in turn be taken all the way down to harmonisation of the team, and Crab, judging by all his comments so far, isn't going to fit into the civilian mould. I'd rather upset him on here, than have him upset a dedicated team out there.
Apologies for the departure from thread SP.
Harmonisation of resources can in turn be taken all the way down to harmonisation of the team, and Crab, judging by all his comments so far, isn't going to fit into the civilian mould. I'd rather upset him on here, than have him upset a dedicated team out there.
is this harmony
FROM HEBRIDESNEWS
Coastguard helicopter did not undertake rescue mission 14/3/08
The new Stornoway coastguard helicopter could not undertake a rescue mission on Wednesday because new fuel tanks have yet to be fitted.
Instead, a RAF Sea King crew from Lossiemouth flew the return emergency flight some 200 miles west off the Western Isles to airlift a seriously ill Russian fisherman to hospital in Stornoway.
Although the new Sikorsky S92 coastguard helicopter - based at Stornoway - was closer it does not have such a long range as the former Bristows aircraft used for coastguard operations.
Previous assurances that extra fuel tanks would be fitted into the new aircraft to allow it to fly on such a mission have not been enacted into reality. The fuel tanks are lying empty at the operator's base in Stornoway awaiting a decision whetever to install them or not.
On Wednesday night, the sick man suffering with chest pains was winched off the factory trawler Semyon Lapshenkov.
The MCA said the RAF Sea King was alerted to the mission as it had a longer range.
Coastguard helicopter did not undertake rescue mission 14/3/08
The new Stornoway coastguard helicopter could not undertake a rescue mission on Wednesday because new fuel tanks have yet to be fitted.
Instead, a RAF Sea King crew from Lossiemouth flew the return emergency flight some 200 miles west off the Western Isles to airlift a seriously ill Russian fisherman to hospital in Stornoway.
Although the new Sikorsky S92 coastguard helicopter - based at Stornoway - was closer it does not have such a long range as the former Bristows aircraft used for coastguard operations.
Previous assurances that extra fuel tanks would be fitted into the new aircraft to allow it to fly on such a mission have not been enacted into reality. The fuel tanks are lying empty at the operator's base in Stornoway awaiting a decision whetever to install them or not.
On Wednesday night, the sick man suffering with chest pains was winched off the factory trawler Semyon Lapshenkov.
The MCA said the RAF Sea King was alerted to the mission as it had a longer range.
Last edited by sonas; 15th Mar 2008 at 20:44. Reason: Where the story came from
Surely not - the super-duper all singing and dancing SAR helicopter with less capability than the old one - so much for a seamless transition then