Canada: Cormorant & Cyclone thread
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Decades-long mission to replace Sea Kings hits another snag
DANIEL LEBLANC
OTTAWA — The Globe and Mail
Published Monday, Jul. 02 2012, 12:01 AM EDT
Last updated Sunday, Jul. 01 2012, 11:33 PM EDT
Sikorsky International Operations Inc. was supposed to deliver the first of 28 state-of-the-art CH-148 Cyclones in June, after the Harper government agreed in late 2008 to extend the deadline on the $5.7-billion contract by 43 months.
In the latest in a string of missteps in military procurements, Sikorsky is pushing back on the delivery, with still no official date being offered for the completion of the contract.
“Sikorsky has yet to start delivering the Cyclones,” said Sébastien Bois, a spokesman for Public Works and Government Services Canada.
The Sea Kings, which are nearly 50 years old, have been famously unreliable in recent years as they were placed aboard Canadian frigates on overseas missions to places such as the Persian Gulf. The Cyclones are expected to be more effective in all types of challenging environments, with high-tech radars and sensors to patrol the world’s turbulent seas.
The purchase is the latest in a series of problematic procurements by the Canadian Forces, such as the purchase of underperforming second-hand submarines and delays in acquiring search-and-rescue planes. The biggest controversy for the Harper government to date surrounds the mishandling of the sole-sourced $15-billion deal for F-35 fighter jets, which was the subject of a hard-hitting report by the Auditor-General this spring.
Sikorsky signed a contract with the previous Liberal government in 2004 to start delivering the fleet of Cyclones in 2008. The Harper government agreed in late 2008 to extend the deadline for the delivery of helicopters to June of this year, citing technological hurdles faced by the company.
The contract extension included a funding increase of $117-million as Ottawa said it would receive more powerful choppers than initially planned.
Sikorsky and the federal government are remaining vague about the problems with the Cyclone program, but it is clear the company is struggling to obtain the “airworthiness certification” that is mandatory for the helicopters to fly off on military missions. In addition, the company is still working to ensure the helicopters have the necessary engine power to meet the government’s mandatory endurance requirements.
Ottawa has been trying to replace its Sea Kings with new ship-borne helicopters since the mid-1980s. The Mulroney government had decided to purchase EH-101 helicopters for the job, but in one of his first acts in office, former Liberal prime minister Jean Chrétien scrapped the contract in 1993. The cancellation cost taxpayers $478-million.
After a series of delays, the Liberals announced in 2004 that Sikorsky had won the competition to replace the Sea Kings, which the Canadian Forces had acquired between 1963 and 1969. Problems with the Sea Kings have abounded over the years, including crashes and routine groundings on military missions.
The opposition said the replacement program has become a national embarrassment.
“The whole program has been a disaster,” said NDP MP Jack Harris, who called on the government to slap maximum penalties against the company.
So far, Ottawa has imposed $8-million in liquidated damages against Sikorsky, and is threatening to run up the bill.
Failure to deliver fully compliant Maritime Helicopters will be met with significant additional charges to the company,” said Michelle Bakos, a spokeswoman for Public Works Minister Rona Ambrose.
The company is late on two fronts. In addition to delays in delivering the final version of the Cyclone helicopter, Sikorsky is also well behind on its promise to deliver an “interim” version of the Cyclone to be used for training.
According to the 2008 contract extension, the interim helicopters were supposed to meet watered-down requirements, and were scheduled to arrive at the Canadian Forces base in Shearwater, N.S., in November, 2010. However, that portion of the contract has also not been fulfilled, causing months of delays in the training of technicians and aircrews.
“Critical work remains to be done before the Government of Canada can take official delivery and assume ownership of the interim helicopters,” Mr. Bois said. “Sikorsky leadership has reconfirmed their commitment to deliver helicopters at no additional cost to the Crown.”
Public Works and National Defence are stating that they expect the delivery of the interim helicopters to occur “later this year.” This suggests the delivery of the fully compliant helicopters – initially scheduled for 2008 – will not happen until 2013.
The Auditor-General investigated the Cyclone purchase in 2010, and concluded that National Defence underestimated the complexity of developing the military helicopters, which were wrongly defined as being an “off-the-shelf” purchase.
“In our opinion, National Defence did not adequately assess the developmental nature of this aircraft, and the risks related to cost and the complexity of the required technical modifications were underestimated,” the Auditor-General said.
DANIEL LEBLANC
OTTAWA — The Globe and Mail
Published Monday, Jul. 02 2012, 12:01 AM EDT
Last updated Sunday, Jul. 01 2012, 11:33 PM EDT
Sikorsky International Operations Inc. was supposed to deliver the first of 28 state-of-the-art CH-148 Cyclones in June, after the Harper government agreed in late 2008 to extend the deadline on the $5.7-billion contract by 43 months.
In the latest in a string of missteps in military procurements, Sikorsky is pushing back on the delivery, with still no official date being offered for the completion of the contract.
“Sikorsky has yet to start delivering the Cyclones,” said Sébastien Bois, a spokesman for Public Works and Government Services Canada.
The Sea Kings, which are nearly 50 years old, have been famously unreliable in recent years as they were placed aboard Canadian frigates on overseas missions to places such as the Persian Gulf. The Cyclones are expected to be more effective in all types of challenging environments, with high-tech radars and sensors to patrol the world’s turbulent seas.
The purchase is the latest in a series of problematic procurements by the Canadian Forces, such as the purchase of underperforming second-hand submarines and delays in acquiring search-and-rescue planes. The biggest controversy for the Harper government to date surrounds the mishandling of the sole-sourced $15-billion deal for F-35 fighter jets, which was the subject of a hard-hitting report by the Auditor-General this spring.
Sikorsky signed a contract with the previous Liberal government in 2004 to start delivering the fleet of Cyclones in 2008. The Harper government agreed in late 2008 to extend the deadline for the delivery of helicopters to June of this year, citing technological hurdles faced by the company.
The contract extension included a funding increase of $117-million as Ottawa said it would receive more powerful choppers than initially planned.
Sikorsky and the federal government are remaining vague about the problems with the Cyclone program, but it is clear the company is struggling to obtain the “airworthiness certification” that is mandatory for the helicopters to fly off on military missions. In addition, the company is still working to ensure the helicopters have the necessary engine power to meet the government’s mandatory endurance requirements.
Ottawa has been trying to replace its Sea Kings with new ship-borne helicopters since the mid-1980s. The Mulroney government had decided to purchase EH-101 helicopters for the job, but in one of his first acts in office, former Liberal prime minister Jean Chrétien scrapped the contract in 1993. The cancellation cost taxpayers $478-million.
After a series of delays, the Liberals announced in 2004 that Sikorsky had won the competition to replace the Sea Kings, which the Canadian Forces had acquired between 1963 and 1969. Problems with the Sea Kings have abounded over the years, including crashes and routine groundings on military missions.
The opposition said the replacement program has become a national embarrassment.
“The whole program has been a disaster,” said NDP MP Jack Harris, who called on the government to slap maximum penalties against the company.
So far, Ottawa has imposed $8-million in liquidated damages against Sikorsky, and is threatening to run up the bill.
Failure to deliver fully compliant Maritime Helicopters will be met with significant additional charges to the company,” said Michelle Bakos, a spokeswoman for Public Works Minister Rona Ambrose.
The company is late on two fronts. In addition to delays in delivering the final version of the Cyclone helicopter, Sikorsky is also well behind on its promise to deliver an “interim” version of the Cyclone to be used for training.
According to the 2008 contract extension, the interim helicopters were supposed to meet watered-down requirements, and were scheduled to arrive at the Canadian Forces base in Shearwater, N.S., in November, 2010. However, that portion of the contract has also not been fulfilled, causing months of delays in the training of technicians and aircrews.
“Critical work remains to be done before the Government of Canada can take official delivery and assume ownership of the interim helicopters,” Mr. Bois said. “Sikorsky leadership has reconfirmed their commitment to deliver helicopters at no additional cost to the Crown.”
Public Works and National Defence are stating that they expect the delivery of the interim helicopters to occur “later this year.” This suggests the delivery of the fully compliant helicopters – initially scheduled for 2008 – will not happen until 2013.
The Auditor-General investigated the Cyclone purchase in 2010, and concluded that National Defence underestimated the complexity of developing the military helicopters, which were wrongly defined as being an “off-the-shelf” purchase.
“In our opinion, National Defence did not adequately assess the developmental nature of this aircraft, and the risks related to cost and the complexity of the required technical modifications were underestimated,” the Auditor-General said.
Failure to deliver fully compliant Maritime Helicopters will be met with significant additional charges to the company,” said Michelle Bakos, a spokeswoman for Public Works Minister Rona Ambrose.
This is pretty incredible, what ever happened to the $100,000 per-day late fee?
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I have no idea from where the concept of "significant additional charges" for lateness comes. The original contract called for a $100,000 per day holdback for anything up to a max of 360 days late, after which there would be no further penalty (ie a max penalty of $36 million for late delivery). The Feb 2009 contract amendment (always referred to in the media as the "2008 contract announcement" or something to that effect) capped the late delivery penalty at $8 million. If it had indeed been $100K per day (no cap), Sikorsky would no longer be in business and Canada would still not have any new helicopters. Sikorsky is still in business. Canada's Navy still flies Sea Pigs.
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This story about newly identified delivery delay fallout came out today... I wonder if the German Navy is still wanting to join this party:
Sea King substitute’s delay means a scramble on the landing deck
DANIEL LEBLANC
OTTAWA — The Globe and Mail
Published Monday, Jul. 02 2012
As the Canadian Forces were getting ready to welcome their long-awaited fleet of new maritime helicopters, they modified the landing deck on HMCS Regina.
The move was essential to ensure the new CH-148 Cyclones could safely land on the frigate in turbulent waters, as the state-of-the-art aircraft have a different landing configuration than the nearly 50-year-old Sea Kings that have been flown off the vessel for decades.
However, a new round of delays in the delivery of the Sikorsky aircraft has forced the military to go back on the modifications to HMCS Regina. Turning back the clock, the military has had to get the vessel ready to again welcome old Sea Kings on its deck, government sources said Monday.
The situation illustrates the cost and complexity to the government of the multiple delays in the delivery of the fleet of 28 Cyclones, purchased in 2004 at a cost of $5.7-billion.
The bungled procurement has reinforced the perception in Ottawa that the military acquisition process is flawed and might need to be reorganized under the single umbrella of a specialized agency. Under the current system, major military purchases are handled jointly by the departments of National Defence and Public Works.
The Sikorsky purchase is the second major procurement headache afflicting the Harper government, which has been overhauling the process to acquire a new fleet of fighter jets to replace its CF-18s after a damning report by the Auditor-General earlier this year.
Plans to replace the Sea Kings go back to the mid-1980s. After ripping up a contract for new choppers in 1993, the Liberal government bought the Cyclones in 2004, stating the aircraft would start arriving at CFB Shearwater in 2008. At the time, the Liberals boasted the contract with Sikorsky International Operations Inc. marked “the end of an extremely rigorous procurement process.”
However, the company faced a variety of technological hurdles that delayed the development and production of the new aircraft, and the Harper government was forced to offer a 43-month reprieve on the delivery of the helicopters in 2008.
Under a deal signed by the Conservative government at the time, Sikorsky agreed to start delivering fully compliant helicopters by June 30 of this year. That deadline has come and gone, however, and neither Sikorksy nor Public Works could offer a new delivery schedule on Monday.
The delay has forced the HMCS Regina to re-modify its landing deck.
“In preparation for the receipt of new maritime helicopters, the deck of the HMCS Regina was converted to accept a Cyclone,” said an official at National Defence.
“Given Sikorsky’s recent delay to the delivery date set out in the contract, modifications were necessary to ensure the HMCS Regina would be deployable.”
The company has also failed to deliver “interim” helicopters for training of Canadian aircrews and technicians. The interim helicopters, which only had to meet watered-down performance requirements, were due to be delivered to the Canadian Forces in 2010.
Government and military sources said there is much frustration at the delays, as highlighted by the series of modifications that had to be made on HMCS Regina.
Over time, all of the Canadian Forces frigates will have to be modified to welcome the Cyclones, although it is unclear when that will happen.
So far, Ottawa has imposed $8-million in liquidated damages against Sikorsky, and is threatening to run up the bill.
“Failure to deliver fully compliant Maritime Helicopters will be met with significant additional charges to the company,” said Michelle Bakos, a spokeswoman for Public Works Minister Rona Ambrose.
Sikorsky and the federal government are remaining vague about the problems with the Cyclone program, but it is clear the company is struggling to obtain the “airworthiness certification” that is mandatory for the helicopters to fly on military missions. In addition, the company is still working to ensure the helicopters have the necessary engine power to meet the government’s mandatory endurance requirements.
The Auditor-General investigated the Cyclone purchase in 2010, and concluded that National Defence underestimated the complexity of developing the military helicopters, which were wrongly defined as being an “off-the-shelf” purchase.
The Sea Kings, bought in the 1960s, have been famously unreliable in recent years as they were placed aboard Canadian frigates on overseas missions to places such as the Persian Gulf. The Cyclones are expected to be more effective in all types of challenging environments, with high-tech radars and sensors to patrol the world’s turbulent seas.
Sea King substitute’s delay means a scramble on the landing deck
DANIEL LEBLANC
OTTAWA — The Globe and Mail
Published Monday, Jul. 02 2012
As the Canadian Forces were getting ready to welcome their long-awaited fleet of new maritime helicopters, they modified the landing deck on HMCS Regina.
The move was essential to ensure the new CH-148 Cyclones could safely land on the frigate in turbulent waters, as the state-of-the-art aircraft have a different landing configuration than the nearly 50-year-old Sea Kings that have been flown off the vessel for decades.
However, a new round of delays in the delivery of the Sikorsky aircraft has forced the military to go back on the modifications to HMCS Regina. Turning back the clock, the military has had to get the vessel ready to again welcome old Sea Kings on its deck, government sources said Monday.
The situation illustrates the cost and complexity to the government of the multiple delays in the delivery of the fleet of 28 Cyclones, purchased in 2004 at a cost of $5.7-billion.
The bungled procurement has reinforced the perception in Ottawa that the military acquisition process is flawed and might need to be reorganized under the single umbrella of a specialized agency. Under the current system, major military purchases are handled jointly by the departments of National Defence and Public Works.
The Sikorsky purchase is the second major procurement headache afflicting the Harper government, which has been overhauling the process to acquire a new fleet of fighter jets to replace its CF-18s after a damning report by the Auditor-General earlier this year.
Plans to replace the Sea Kings go back to the mid-1980s. After ripping up a contract for new choppers in 1993, the Liberal government bought the Cyclones in 2004, stating the aircraft would start arriving at CFB Shearwater in 2008. At the time, the Liberals boasted the contract with Sikorsky International Operations Inc. marked “the end of an extremely rigorous procurement process.”
However, the company faced a variety of technological hurdles that delayed the development and production of the new aircraft, and the Harper government was forced to offer a 43-month reprieve on the delivery of the helicopters in 2008.
Under a deal signed by the Conservative government at the time, Sikorsky agreed to start delivering fully compliant helicopters by June 30 of this year. That deadline has come and gone, however, and neither Sikorksy nor Public Works could offer a new delivery schedule on Monday.
The delay has forced the HMCS Regina to re-modify its landing deck.
“In preparation for the receipt of new maritime helicopters, the deck of the HMCS Regina was converted to accept a Cyclone,” said an official at National Defence.
“Given Sikorsky’s recent delay to the delivery date set out in the contract, modifications were necessary to ensure the HMCS Regina would be deployable.”
The company has also failed to deliver “interim” helicopters for training of Canadian aircrews and technicians. The interim helicopters, which only had to meet watered-down performance requirements, were due to be delivered to the Canadian Forces in 2010.
Government and military sources said there is much frustration at the delays, as highlighted by the series of modifications that had to be made on HMCS Regina.
Over time, all of the Canadian Forces frigates will have to be modified to welcome the Cyclones, although it is unclear when that will happen.
So far, Ottawa has imposed $8-million in liquidated damages against Sikorsky, and is threatening to run up the bill.
“Failure to deliver fully compliant Maritime Helicopters will be met with significant additional charges to the company,” said Michelle Bakos, a spokeswoman for Public Works Minister Rona Ambrose.
Sikorsky and the federal government are remaining vague about the problems with the Cyclone program, but it is clear the company is struggling to obtain the “airworthiness certification” that is mandatory for the helicopters to fly on military missions. In addition, the company is still working to ensure the helicopters have the necessary engine power to meet the government’s mandatory endurance requirements.
The Auditor-General investigated the Cyclone purchase in 2010, and concluded that National Defence underestimated the complexity of developing the military helicopters, which were wrongly defined as being an “off-the-shelf” purchase.
The Sea Kings, bought in the 1960s, have been famously unreliable in recent years as they were placed aboard Canadian frigates on overseas missions to places such as the Persian Gulf. The Cyclones are expected to be more effective in all types of challenging environments, with high-tech radars and sensors to patrol the world’s turbulent seas.
CDNNIGHTHAWK. I guess that Ottowa has grounds to cancel the order now or at least sue for breach of contract after the latest delays.That might be why they can claim additional fines.After all the cost of derigging Regina must have cost at least a million dollars.As for Germany buying the aircraft that has doubtless disappeared out the window thanks to the Euro crisis and a surplus of NH90 airframes from deferred orders.
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Rock and a hard place
I'm sure that all the Canadians want is a decent machine to replace their Sea Kings. 
I guess that AW would be happy to sell you some 101's, but that would be losing face in the extreme and they'd have another wait. How about the Seahawk as a compromise?
Canada could always try and out bid New Zealand on the SH-2G Super Seasprites that are still kicking around in a hangar somewhere after the cancelled Aus order.
I guess that AW would be happy to sell you some 101's, but that would be losing face in the extreme and they'd have another wait. How about the Seahawk as a compromise?
Canada could always try and out bid New Zealand on the SH-2G Super Seasprites that are still kicking around in a hangar somewhere after the cancelled Aus order.
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Halifax Herald ~ 4 July 2012
Tories to hit Sikorsky for delay
July 3, 2012 - 8:07pm By PAUL McLEOD Ottawa Bureau
The government says it will level “significant” fines against Sikorsky Aircraft Corp. for missing yet another deadline to deliver CH-148 Cyclone helicopters.
But it’s not saying whether it will demand the entire $80.6 million it can charge Sikorsky for breach of contract.
Meanwhile, the delays continue to handcuff the Canadian Forces.
The government retrofitted HMCS Regina and HMCS Montreal, two Halifax-class frigates, in order to allow the Cyclones to land on and take off from the ships’ flight deck.
But when it became clear the choppers would not arrive on time, the Forces had to spend more money to reverse the HMCS Regina retrofit so it could once again handle Sea Kings.
A Defence Department spokesman estimated the cost of the retrofits to be about $600,000 per ship. The Canadian Forces could not confirm that number by deadline Tuesday or provide the cost of reversing the Regina refit.
With work to return its flight deck and hangar to original specifications completed, the Regina was deployed Tuesday to the Arabian Sea as part of Operation Artemis, a Combined Maritime Forces counter-terrorism mission.
The Cyclones and Sea Kings are significantly different vehicles and that would require major changes to the flight deck and the hangar, said Lee Myrhaugen, a retired colonel and former deputy commander of Maritime Air Group.
“It’s extremely frustrating for the navy, for sure,” said Myrhaugen.
“You put all your efforts into making sure that you’re prepared for the new aircraft and when things get delayed, you have to turn around and say, ‘What is all this good planning and activity for?’ ”
The $5.7-billion purchase has become a nightmare for the government. Announced in 2004 by the former Liberal government, Sikorsky was supposed to start delivering the choppers in 2008 and the entire fleet of 28 was supposed to have arrived by now.
Instead the government gave Sikorsky a 43-month extension in exchange for more than $100 million in extra industrial and economic promises from the company. That deadline ran out on June 30 without a single helicopter delivered.
The government has already collected $8 million in fines from Sikorsky and can now charge a further $80.6 million.
The Department of Public Works would not confirm Tuesday if it was charging the full amount, saying it was in talks with the company.
“Failure to deliver fully compliant marine helicopters will be met with significant additional charges,” said Amber Irwin, spokeswoman for Public Works Minister Rona Ambrose.
The government did not set a new target date for receiving the Cyclones, but there are signs it won’t be any time soon.
There are currently no plans to convert any more ships to handle Cyclones, said Chris McCluskey, spokesman for Associate Defence Minister Julian Fantino.
There are two Cyclones sitting at CFB Shearwater, but they are not up to specifications and do not count as delivered aircraft.
While the choppers are theoretically flyable, no flight training is currently being done with them. Instead they are being used only for maintenance training.
Sikorsky was supposed to deliver a series of “training” Cyclones with weaker specs than the final product, but those have not yet arrived.
The road to replacing the Sea Kings began in 1992 when the Brian Mulroney government announced they would buy 50 EH-101s at a price of $5.8 billion. The next year, the Jean Chretien government tore up that deal and had to pay a penalty of close to $500 million.
Over the years, the cost of the program has ballooned from a projected $2.8 billion to an estimated $5.7 billion.
([email protected])
Tories to hit Sikorsky for delay
July 3, 2012 - 8:07pm By PAUL McLEOD Ottawa Bureau
The government says it will level “significant” fines against Sikorsky Aircraft Corp. for missing yet another deadline to deliver CH-148 Cyclone helicopters.
But it’s not saying whether it will demand the entire $80.6 million it can charge Sikorsky for breach of contract.
Meanwhile, the delays continue to handcuff the Canadian Forces.
The government retrofitted HMCS Regina and HMCS Montreal, two Halifax-class frigates, in order to allow the Cyclones to land on and take off from the ships’ flight deck.
But when it became clear the choppers would not arrive on time, the Forces had to spend more money to reverse the HMCS Regina retrofit so it could once again handle Sea Kings.
A Defence Department spokesman estimated the cost of the retrofits to be about $600,000 per ship. The Canadian Forces could not confirm that number by deadline Tuesday or provide the cost of reversing the Regina refit.
With work to return its flight deck and hangar to original specifications completed, the Regina was deployed Tuesday to the Arabian Sea as part of Operation Artemis, a Combined Maritime Forces counter-terrorism mission.
The Cyclones and Sea Kings are significantly different vehicles and that would require major changes to the flight deck and the hangar, said Lee Myrhaugen, a retired colonel and former deputy commander of Maritime Air Group.
“It’s extremely frustrating for the navy, for sure,” said Myrhaugen.
“You put all your efforts into making sure that you’re prepared for the new aircraft and when things get delayed, you have to turn around and say, ‘What is all this good planning and activity for?’ ”
The $5.7-billion purchase has become a nightmare for the government. Announced in 2004 by the former Liberal government, Sikorsky was supposed to start delivering the choppers in 2008 and the entire fleet of 28 was supposed to have arrived by now.
Instead the government gave Sikorsky a 43-month extension in exchange for more than $100 million in extra industrial and economic promises from the company. That deadline ran out on June 30 without a single helicopter delivered.
The government has already collected $8 million in fines from Sikorsky and can now charge a further $80.6 million.
The Department of Public Works would not confirm Tuesday if it was charging the full amount, saying it was in talks with the company.
“Failure to deliver fully compliant marine helicopters will be met with significant additional charges,” said Amber Irwin, spokeswoman for Public Works Minister Rona Ambrose.
The government did not set a new target date for receiving the Cyclones, but there are signs it won’t be any time soon.
There are currently no plans to convert any more ships to handle Cyclones, said Chris McCluskey, spokesman for Associate Defence Minister Julian Fantino.
There are two Cyclones sitting at CFB Shearwater, but they are not up to specifications and do not count as delivered aircraft.
While the choppers are theoretically flyable, no flight training is currently being done with them. Instead they are being used only for maintenance training.
Sikorsky was supposed to deliver a series of “training” Cyclones with weaker specs than the final product, but those have not yet arrived.
The road to replacing the Sea Kings began in 1992 when the Brian Mulroney government announced they would buy 50 EH-101s at a price of $5.8 billion. The next year, the Jean Chretien government tore up that deal and had to pay a penalty of close to $500 million.
Over the years, the cost of the program has ballooned from a projected $2.8 billion to an estimated $5.7 billion.
([email protected])
In general they seem to be pretty much set on a machine at least as big as the Sea King. As it is planned to go for a single type it has to be capable of all current and planned missions in one single air frame without any setbacks compared to the prdecessors.
And that basically leaves you with only very few options:
Cyclone or the EH-101.
The latter is too big+heavy for the actual and projected ships (not mentioning that it seems to be plagued by generally not overwhelming availability rates with the current users), so either Cyclone or a smaller machine than the predecessor it is.
Looking at the actual situation of the CH-148 I hope they wait at least a bit before fully comitting to that route.
Sorry if that leaves all of the risk with you Canadians but we do have enough other military procurement programs going awry. We are in no particular need for another one...
Last edited by henra; 4th Jul 2012 at 21:54.
But when it became clear the choppers would not arrive on time, the Forces had to spend more money to reverse the HMCS Regina retrofit so it could once again handle Sea Kings.
A Defence Department spokesman estimated the cost of the retrofits to be about $600,000 per ship. The Canadian Forces could not confirm that number by deadline Tuesday or provide the cost of reversing the Regina refit.
With work to return its flight deck and hangar to original specifications completed, the Regina was deployed Tuesday to the Arabian Sea as part of Operation Artemis, a Combined Maritime Forces counter-terrorism mission.
A Defence Department spokesman estimated the cost of the retrofits to be about $600,000 per ship. The Canadian Forces could not confirm that number by deadline Tuesday or provide the cost of reversing the Regina refit.
With work to return its flight deck and hangar to original specifications completed, the Regina was deployed Tuesday to the Arabian Sea as part of Operation Artemis, a Combined Maritime Forces counter-terrorism mission.
As an aside, I toured HMCS Regina when she came to Saigon a few years ago. I did ask a rather pointed question while standing in the empty hangar "Where's your Sea King?"
and I got a rather defensive answer "We don't always deploy with them."
What on earth requires $600,000 to change the deck and hangar to support a different type?
In a similar vein, while the Cyclone will (eventually?) deliver bring a more modern capability than the Sea King, there's no way the new aircraft will be able to operate in the same deck conditions as the venerable Sea King unless a 'son of beartrap' is developed...not currently part of the design spec I believe? Watching the beartrap/Sea King combo in action (on video rather than live, in my case) is highly impressive!
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TOTD - I can assure you that operating the Sea King using the beartrap is pretty impressive too. As I recall, the limits for operation were 9 degrees of pitch and 30 degrees of roll.
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Some more on this story plus some interesting video feed can be found at
New military helicopters may not be ready for 5 years - Politics - CBC News
New military helicopters may not be ready for 5 years - Politics - CBC News
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TOTD re $600K rework job...
The beartrap and deck handling equipment had to be completely redesigned for the Cyclone. The large steel tail probe bars required by the Sea King at the after end of the flight deck had to be removed (and then reinstalled again in the case of HMCS REGINA). The Sea King's tail guide winch system had to be replaced by a nose guide winch system because, like the Sea King's tail wheel, the Cyclone nose wheel is fully castoring (not steerable) and needs to be kept from rolling during ship roll (this gear had to be reversed in the case of REGINA); a nose wheel tray had to be added (and removed in the case of REGINA) to keep the Cyclone straight when being moved in and out of the hangar because it has to be offset well to port of the hangar centreline in order to fit in the hangar whereas the Sea King rides along the centre deck track; work platforms and other hangar apparatus required for the Sea King that had been removed needed to be reinstalled in REGINA,etc, etc. Bear in mind the $600K figure was undoubtedly an out-of-the-anus estimate. I would not be surprised to learn that the bill was actually more than that.
The beartrap and deck handling equipment had to be completely redesigned for the Cyclone. The large steel tail probe bars required by the Sea King at the after end of the flight deck had to be removed (and then reinstalled again in the case of HMCS REGINA). The Sea King's tail guide winch system had to be replaced by a nose guide winch system because, like the Sea King's tail wheel, the Cyclone nose wheel is fully castoring (not steerable) and needs to be kept from rolling during ship roll (this gear had to be reversed in the case of REGINA); a nose wheel tray had to be added (and removed in the case of REGINA) to keep the Cyclone straight when being moved in and out of the hangar because it has to be offset well to port of the hangar centreline in order to fit in the hangar whereas the Sea King rides along the centre deck track; work platforms and other hangar apparatus required for the Sea King that had been removed needed to be reinstalled in REGINA,etc, etc. Bear in mind the $600K figure was undoubtedly an out-of-the-anus estimate. I would not be surprised to learn that the bill was actually more than that.
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Both aircraft use the RAST system, just a different variation of it. The Sea King is set up for a reverse tricycle gear and the Cyclone works with a newer version based on a standard tricycle gear arrangement. I believe both systems are by what used to be DAF Indal. Cdnnighthawks comments are quite good on the impacts from my memories of the city class development.
Quick edit, at least that's what was planned back then for the new aircraft. Does anyone know if they took up the harpoon deck lock instead?
Quick edit, at least that's what was planned back then for the new aircraft. Does anyone know if they took up the harpoon deck lock instead?
Last edited by RWBooy; 5th Jul 2012 at 21:34.
Cyclones touch down in Shearwater | Vertical - Helicopter News
So in addition to the failure to meet various feature KPPs, this confirms the issue with engine power.
CYCLONES TOUCH DOWN IN SHEARWATER
Friday July 6th 2012 - by Ken Pole
At the end of June, the Royal Canadian Air Force took delivery of two long-awaited Sikorsky CH-148 Cyclones at 12 Wing Shearwater, N.S. However, neither is the aircraft that has been the subject of controversy since it was delivered to the base early last year.
That original model, Maritime Helicopter 806, has been returned to the Sikorsky assembly centre in West Palm Beach, Fla., for unspecified modifications. It will be returned to Shearwater “at a later date,” said the Department of National Defence (DND).
The newly-arrived pair of Cyclones, MH805 and 808, which remain Sikorsky’s property until the DND takes possession, are still considered “interim maritime helicopters” and, like 806, are being used primarily for maintenance and non-flight aircrew training.
“Some critical work remains outstanding before the Canadian Forces [CF] can take formal delivery of the first interim maritime helicopters,” DND commented. “Most notably, a Canadian military flight clearance and training for the initial cadre of aircrew and technicians need to be completed. . . . Once the delivery requirements have been met, DND/CF will take delivery . . . to commence initial operational test and evaluation.”
While official lips are sealed at DND and Public Works & Government Services Canada (PWGSC), the other department most involved in the procurement, the fundamental deficiency is understood to be the power-to-weight ratio. The original General Electric CT7-8A1 evidently was heavier than expected which, coupled with “Canadianization” of what was supposed to be an off the shelf (OTS) aircraft, compromised its performance.
The OTS angle was highlighted by the Office of the Auditor-General, which said in a report to Parliament in late 2010 that DND not only had failed to adequately assess the “developmental nature” of the aircraft, but also had underestimated “the risks related to cost and the complexity of the required technical modifications.”
The first production aircraft, MH801, flew in November 2008 and the power problem soon became apparent, prompting confirmation of an engine upgrade in May 2010. Designated CT7-8A7, the new engine, developed at GE’s expense, generates 10 percent more power with a redesigned fuel manifold and nozzles, among other modifications. In the meantime, the “interim” aircraft have CT7-8A1 engines.
The Cyclone project dates to the mid-1980s, when DND acknowledged the need to plan on replacing its fleet of 1960s-era Sikorsky CH-124 Sea Kings. But it would be years before the need for Sea King replacements became urgent. In 2008-2009, the federal government awarded a contract to Sikorsky to begin delivering 28 aircraft. It also opted to purchase 15 EH101s from AgustaWestland for DND’s search and rescue (SAR) work, and those CH-149 Cormorants remain the backbone of coastal SAR today.
Nearly a year before the first Cyclone was to be delivered, Sikorsky sought “schedule relief” because of what it called “excusable” issues with the project. Then, about the time the first aircraft had been originally expected, DND and PWGSC agreed to a new schedule, which would see deliveries of “interim” platforms in November 2010 and fully compliant helicopters by June 2012.
That amended contract, which involved no penalties for Sikorsky, also saw the cost of 28 helicopters increase by more than five percent to some $1.9 billion US. Then, in late 2009, Sikorsky advised that it could not deliver a fully compliant helicopter by the new deadline. The contract was amended again in June 2010, providing for delivery of the first six aircraft with preliminary mission software by that November. A short time later, however, Sikorsky said first delivery would not take place until possibly February 2011, which eventually was pushed back yet again, to May 2011, when MH 806 arrived at Shearwater.
DND’s current but anodyne position is that it “continues to closely monitor progress” with a view to taking formal delivery of a fully compliant interim aircraft this year.
Friday July 6th 2012 - by Ken Pole
At the end of June, the Royal Canadian Air Force took delivery of two long-awaited Sikorsky CH-148 Cyclones at 12 Wing Shearwater, N.S. However, neither is the aircraft that has been the subject of controversy since it was delivered to the base early last year.
That original model, Maritime Helicopter 806, has been returned to the Sikorsky assembly centre in West Palm Beach, Fla., for unspecified modifications. It will be returned to Shearwater “at a later date,” said the Department of National Defence (DND).
The newly-arrived pair of Cyclones, MH805 and 808, which remain Sikorsky’s property until the DND takes possession, are still considered “interim maritime helicopters” and, like 806, are being used primarily for maintenance and non-flight aircrew training.
“Some critical work remains outstanding before the Canadian Forces [CF] can take formal delivery of the first interim maritime helicopters,” DND commented. “Most notably, a Canadian military flight clearance and training for the initial cadre of aircrew and technicians need to be completed. . . . Once the delivery requirements have been met, DND/CF will take delivery . . . to commence initial operational test and evaluation.”
While official lips are sealed at DND and Public Works & Government Services Canada (PWGSC), the other department most involved in the procurement, the fundamental deficiency is understood to be the power-to-weight ratio. The original General Electric CT7-8A1 evidently was heavier than expected which, coupled with “Canadianization” of what was supposed to be an off the shelf (OTS) aircraft, compromised its performance.
The OTS angle was highlighted by the Office of the Auditor-General, which said in a report to Parliament in late 2010 that DND not only had failed to adequately assess the “developmental nature” of the aircraft, but also had underestimated “the risks related to cost and the complexity of the required technical modifications.”
The first production aircraft, MH801, flew in November 2008 and the power problem soon became apparent, prompting confirmation of an engine upgrade in May 2010. Designated CT7-8A7, the new engine, developed at GE’s expense, generates 10 percent more power with a redesigned fuel manifold and nozzles, among other modifications. In the meantime, the “interim” aircraft have CT7-8A1 engines.
The Cyclone project dates to the mid-1980s, when DND acknowledged the need to plan on replacing its fleet of 1960s-era Sikorsky CH-124 Sea Kings. But it would be years before the need for Sea King replacements became urgent. In 2008-2009, the federal government awarded a contract to Sikorsky to begin delivering 28 aircraft. It also opted to purchase 15 EH101s from AgustaWestland for DND’s search and rescue (SAR) work, and those CH-149 Cormorants remain the backbone of coastal SAR today.
Nearly a year before the first Cyclone was to be delivered, Sikorsky sought “schedule relief” because of what it called “excusable” issues with the project. Then, about the time the first aircraft had been originally expected, DND and PWGSC agreed to a new schedule, which would see deliveries of “interim” platforms in November 2010 and fully compliant helicopters by June 2012.
That amended contract, which involved no penalties for Sikorsky, also saw the cost of 28 helicopters increase by more than five percent to some $1.9 billion US. Then, in late 2009, Sikorsky advised that it could not deliver a fully compliant helicopter by the new deadline. The contract was amended again in June 2010, providing for delivery of the first six aircraft with preliminary mission software by that November. A short time later, however, Sikorsky said first delivery would not take place until possibly February 2011, which eventually was pushed back yet again, to May 2011, when MH 806 arrived at Shearwater.
DND’s current but anodyne position is that it “continues to closely monitor progress” with a view to taking formal delivery of a fully compliant interim aircraft this year.
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Ken Pole's most recent article on the subject is not accurate. He should have researched the subject more thoroughly before hitting the send button.
The fact is that Sikorsky originally proposed to Canada a MH-92 with the CT7-8A engine at an estimated aircraft mission weight (unknown at the time because the MH-92 was just a paper aircraft) that was about 3000 lbs lighter than the aircraft eventually came in at (its currently estimated to be 29,400 lbs MGTOW).
The FAA Type Certificate Data Sheet for the CT7 FAA TCDS #E8NE (available on the FAA website) confirms that the dry weights of the CT7-8A and the CT7-8A1 are identical. In GE's defence, the Cyclone engine is therefore NOT heavier than anticipated. The difference between the CT7-8A and the CT7-8A1 is related to their different engine fuel filters and slightly different power output ... not their weight.
The same TCDS also confirms that the recently certified (21 May 2012) CT7-8A7 engine (same dry weight as the CT7-8A! BTW) failed to meet the required 10% take-off and OEI power increase needed for the Cyclone to meet the contract OEI performance requirements.
I attach a comparison below... you have to read the data presented against the initial order of column titles at the top of the list because the PPrune site can't seem to accept the table as extracted.. it may still be understandable as presented but to get a clearer picture of the data presented, go to the FAA's online TCDS Library and ask for TCDS E8NE.
Extract from FAA Type Certificate Data Sheet E8NE Revision 27
CT7-8A1
CT7-8A7
SHP Increase
% Increase
Maximum Continous
2041 (CT7-8A1)
2323 (CT7-8A7)
282 SHP increase
13.8% increase
Take Off ~ 5 Minute
2538 (CT7-8A1)
2685 (CT7-8A7)
147 SHP increase
5.8% increase
30 Minute
2334 (CT7-8A1)
2627 (CT7-8A7)
293 SHP increase
12.6% increase
OEI ~ Continuous
2495 (CT7-8A1)
2627 (CT7-8A7)
132 SHP increase
5.3% increase
OEI ~ 2 Minute
2502 (CT7-8A1)
2667 (CT7-8A7)
165 SHP increase
6.6% increase
OEI ~ 30 Second
2712 (CT7-8A1)
2788 (CT7-8A7)
76 SHP increase
2.8% increase
NOTE 45. The Instructions for Continued Airworthiness (ICA) for the CT7-8A6/-8A7 engines are incomplete. No aircraft with these engines will be eligible for a Standard Airworthiness Certificate until the ICA are complete and accepted.
The Cyclone's underpower issue is still unresolved.
The fact is that Sikorsky originally proposed to Canada a MH-92 with the CT7-8A engine at an estimated aircraft mission weight (unknown at the time because the MH-92 was just a paper aircraft) that was about 3000 lbs lighter than the aircraft eventually came in at (its currently estimated to be 29,400 lbs MGTOW).
The FAA Type Certificate Data Sheet for the CT7 FAA TCDS #E8NE (available on the FAA website) confirms that the dry weights of the CT7-8A and the CT7-8A1 are identical. In GE's defence, the Cyclone engine is therefore NOT heavier than anticipated. The difference between the CT7-8A and the CT7-8A1 is related to their different engine fuel filters and slightly different power output ... not their weight.
The same TCDS also confirms that the recently certified (21 May 2012) CT7-8A7 engine (same dry weight as the CT7-8A! BTW) failed to meet the required 10% take-off and OEI power increase needed for the Cyclone to meet the contract OEI performance requirements.
I attach a comparison below... you have to read the data presented against the initial order of column titles at the top of the list because the PPrune site can't seem to accept the table as extracted.. it may still be understandable as presented but to get a clearer picture of the data presented, go to the FAA's online TCDS Library and ask for TCDS E8NE.
Extract from FAA Type Certificate Data Sheet E8NE Revision 27
CT7-8A1
CT7-8A7
SHP Increase
% Increase
Maximum Continous
2041 (CT7-8A1)
2323 (CT7-8A7)
282 SHP increase
13.8% increase
Take Off ~ 5 Minute
2538 (CT7-8A1)
2685 (CT7-8A7)
147 SHP increase
5.8% increase
30 Minute
2334 (CT7-8A1)
2627 (CT7-8A7)
293 SHP increase
12.6% increase
OEI ~ Continuous
2495 (CT7-8A1)
2627 (CT7-8A7)
132 SHP increase
5.3% increase
OEI ~ 2 Minute
2502 (CT7-8A1)
2667 (CT7-8A7)
165 SHP increase
6.6% increase
OEI ~ 30 Second
2712 (CT7-8A1)
2788 (CT7-8A7)
76 SHP increase
2.8% increase
NOTE 45. The Instructions for Continued Airworthiness (ICA) for the CT7-8A6/-8A7 engines are incomplete. No aircraft with these engines will be eligible for a Standard Airworthiness Certificate until the ICA are complete and accepted.
The Cyclone's underpower issue is still unresolved.
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The Canadian Minister of Defence said yesterday that the Cyclone deal is the worst procurement in Canadian history and he has no idea when it will finally be delivered....
MacKay: Cyclone helicopter deal 'worst' in Canada's history | CTVNews
MacKay: Cyclone helicopter deal 'worst' in Canada's history | CTVNews
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The stomach churning has erupted again...
Ottawa again renegotiating huge chopper contract - Canada - CBC News
Ottawa again renegotiating huge chopper contract - Canada - CBC News