What's best - total time or turbine time?
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What's best - total time or turbine time?
Hi all,
As a low time pilot what does everybody think it is more important to get - total time (even if it's all piston) - or - less time, but with some turbine hours.
For example:
Is it best to get to 1000hrs TT (no turbine).
OR
Get 700hrs TT, with 200hrs of that being turbine.
Any thoughts greatly appreciated.
As a low time pilot what does everybody think it is more important to get - total time (even if it's all piston) - or - less time, but with some turbine hours.
For example:
Is it best to get to 1000hrs TT (no turbine).
OR
Get 700hrs TT, with 200hrs of that being turbine.
Any thoughts greatly appreciated.
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I've always thought that it's more important to look at what a pilot has been doing in whatever hours he's got, that how many hours he's got, for example a guy who's got 500 hours during which he has done a little of frost control, a couple of photo flights, maybe a little of high altitude, is worth more to me than a guy who's got 1500 going around the pattern or something monotonous.
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Here in the U.K. they love you to have some turbine time. Mostly so they know you have experience how not to generate expensive bills for mishandled turbine starts. And then of course you always have the dreaded insurance.
So if you can afford some time on a turbine it would be money well spent.
It depends largely what job you are applying for. If it's a cojo position then it's not as vital.
So if you can afford some time on a turbine it would be money well spent.
It depends largely what job you are applying for. If it's a cojo position then it's not as vital.
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It seems TT is a plus. Insurance seems to dictate what jobs we can get, and they seem more willing to compromise if you have the required total time.
I know the bigger companies require about 3500hrs for command, regardless if you're ex-military with 1000hrs multi-turbine time.
It must suck if thats you as co-pilot and your captain flew 2000hrs of cattle-mustering in a 22.
It will all depend on what your goal with flying is.
I know the bigger companies require about 3500hrs for command, regardless if you're ex-military with 1000hrs multi-turbine time.
It must suck if thats you as co-pilot and your captain flew 2000hrs of cattle-mustering in a 22.
It will all depend on what your goal with flying is.
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Get some Turbine time..... TT is important but it seems from your post there is only going to be a 100hrs difference.
I have been trying to get a relief pilot for a few months now, so I can get some days off. problem is everyone I know has all 44, 22 and S300 time. they have well over a 1000 hrs TT but no Turbine. Our insurance requires 100hrs Turbine (Well actually in type, but they can waiver that.)
(not my idea)
Years ago I found a place that offered time building on a B206 for only $110 I am sure a lot of people have heard the same kind of thing. I needed 50hrs of time before I could sit for my CPL so I did that. Later that got me my first job as they were willing to help me get the rest of the time needed to satisfy the insurance requirements.
Long story short getting some Turbine time helped me.
I have been trying to get a relief pilot for a few months now, so I can get some days off. problem is everyone I know has all 44, 22 and S300 time. they have well over a 1000 hrs TT but no Turbine. Our insurance requires 100hrs Turbine (Well actually in type, but they can waiver that.)
(not my idea)Years ago I found a place that offered time building on a B206 for only $110 I am sure a lot of people have heard the same kind of thing. I needed 50hrs of time before I could sit for my CPL so I did that. Later that got me my first job as they were willing to help me get the rest of the time needed to satisfy the insurance requirements.
Long story short getting some Turbine time helped me.
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I must say, i do agree with the earlier posting, that it has a lot to do with the type of flying you have been doing. Some people accumulate many hours of instruction, though this is worthy flying, and prob a good basis for gaining TRI's and TRE's at a later date, it may not help as much with moving onto other single pilot positions, where a variety (not a jack of all trades mind) of experience in different areas will prove beneficial.
It is important in the UK to get some turbine time and more so time on type, but you can get these things if you stay with a company (the right sort of company)for a while. (that said, I do not condone those who use company gratis for ratings and then jump ship immediatley to move on to another offer that they may already have had).
Starting training, then moving up to light singles with a little charter and then onwards, as a companies confidence in you grows, then hopefully so will your turbine time and experience.
Larger corporate and utility operators require much more experience and to this there is no shortcut.
As for the larger types, and working as a co-pilot then the time on type and experience is not such an issue as you will be gaining and learning on the job under your captain.
In summary, it is important to hit a benchmark... 1000hrs sounds good, and if you can get a little worth while turbine time (dont just pay someone to sit next to them and watch them) in there then its good news. But dont pay over the odds to get it, whether you have 50hrs or 150hrs on a 206 for example prob wont make an enourmous difference in the UK, compared to the large monies it will cost you to achieve.
All the best
Rushes
It is important in the UK to get some turbine time and more so time on type, but you can get these things if you stay with a company (the right sort of company)for a while. (that said, I do not condone those who use company gratis for ratings and then jump ship immediatley to move on to another offer that they may already have had).
Starting training, then moving up to light singles with a little charter and then onwards, as a companies confidence in you grows, then hopefully so will your turbine time and experience.
Larger corporate and utility operators require much more experience and to this there is no shortcut.
As for the larger types, and working as a co-pilot then the time on type and experience is not such an issue as you will be gaining and learning on the job under your captain.
In summary, it is important to hit a benchmark... 1000hrs sounds good, and if you can get a little worth while turbine time (dont just pay someone to sit next to them and watch them) in there then its good news. But dont pay over the odds to get it, whether you have 50hrs or 150hrs on a 206 for example prob wont make an enourmous difference in the UK, compared to the large monies it will cost you to achieve.
All the best
Rushes
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400hr/twin
Hi ManfromUncle..,
Being an almost CPL(H)(just the course to do and a 206 rating) I wonder if you can describe how that chap got to flying twins on 400hrs. It would be very helpful for my direction at the juncture.
Cheers
Chris
Being an almost CPL(H)(just the course to do and a 206 rating) I wonder if you can describe how that chap got to flying twins on 400hrs. It would be very helpful for my direction at the juncture.
Cheers
Chris
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LMAO.. I already have a big comfy set of kneepads... Fortunately coz I was doing a fair bit of carpet fitting in my house and not for any other reason!!!
Rushes (slight topic change soz..)
I agree with you on the gratis hours and buggering off scenario (We have that problem in IT with training) and in an industry as small as the helicopter industry is, it must be tantamount to career suicide...
If it is a problem, why do you not include in the employment contract, that all hours taken as gratis (different from working on type) are fully payable back to the company within 6 months of having been taken? It would only be similar to a bond contract but for a much shorter period ensuring the kindly employer would not lose out.
I would sign up for that in a heartbeat.. It is a standard in the industry I am leaving and I would be happy because my employer would be investing in me and my career goals with a very low return possibility..
SL
Rushes (slight topic change soz..)
I agree with you on the gratis hours and buggering off scenario (We have that problem in IT with training) and in an industry as small as the helicopter industry is, it must be tantamount to career suicide...
If it is a problem, why do you not include in the employment contract, that all hours taken as gratis (different from working on type) are fully payable back to the company within 6 months of having been taken? It would only be similar to a bond contract but for a much shorter period ensuring the kindly employer would not lose out.
I would sign up for that in a heartbeat.. It is a standard in the industry I am leaving and I would be happy because my employer would be investing in me and my career goals with a very low return possibility..
SL
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SL,
Just about all the larger companies do exactly as you suggest (albeit for differing timescales), as do most twin operators. The problem is that many FI's looking to get the turbine opportunities are self employed and have no contract let along one that bonds them (FI working conditions have been discussed lots on this site before
)
The knack to getting that all important break is having the required qualifications, AND most importantly knowing the right person at the right time.
FW
Just about all the larger companies do exactly as you suggest (albeit for differing timescales), as do most twin operators. The problem is that many FI's looking to get the turbine opportunities are self employed and have no contract let along one that bonds them (FI working conditions have been discussed lots on this site before
)The knack to getting that all important break is having the required qualifications, AND most importantly knowing the right person at the right time.
FW
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loaded question??
Depends upon where you are
We own a 141 Helicopter school in the US (British owned) and in my humble opinion Turbine time is virtually worthless here if you have less than 1,000 hrs.
You would be expected to teach until the 1,000 hr PIC point in pistons regardless.
Insurance companies in the USA will not (perhaps they will if you throw enough cash at them) insure pilots for turbine machines if you do not have at least 1,000 hrs and in most cases an IR. Its the liability risk they are very concerned about.
What most CFI's do at the 1,000 hr point is go into one of the following operations in the Gulf (Airlog,PHI,ERA, Rotorcraft Leasing) or Temsco in Alaska to get their first turbine job. These companies all pay for the piston - turbine transition. Therefore in the US I wouldnt bother, let your first turbine employer fund your transition.
I'm not that well versed with the European situation but I am led to believe that insurers are not quite so hung up on TT (I know private owners flying turbines with 200 hrs in the UK, mainly Bell 206's and Gazelles) and thus will insure lower hours pilots to fly turbine machines In this instance I do believe turbine time would be an asset to an employer (the more aircraft you are qualified to fly he more flexibility you have).
It really depends upon what your career and location objective is.
does that help? - probably not!!!!
Geoff
We own a 141 Helicopter school in the US (British owned) and in my humble opinion Turbine time is virtually worthless here if you have less than 1,000 hrs.
You would be expected to teach until the 1,000 hr PIC point in pistons regardless.
Insurance companies in the USA will not (perhaps they will if you throw enough cash at them) insure pilots for turbine machines if you do not have at least 1,000 hrs and in most cases an IR. Its the liability risk they are very concerned about.
What most CFI's do at the 1,000 hr point is go into one of the following operations in the Gulf (Airlog,PHI,ERA, Rotorcraft Leasing) or Temsco in Alaska to get their first turbine job. These companies all pay for the piston - turbine transition. Therefore in the US I wouldnt bother, let your first turbine employer fund your transition.
I'm not that well versed with the European situation but I am led to believe that insurers are not quite so hung up on TT (I know private owners flying turbines with 200 hrs in the UK, mainly Bell 206's and Gazelles) and thus will insure lower hours pilots to fly turbine machines In this instance I do believe turbine time would be an asset to an employer (the more aircraft you are qualified to fly he more flexibility you have).
It really depends upon what your career and location objective is.
does that help? - probably not!!!!
Geoff
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In South Africa turbine time is more there to cover for insurance. Most insurances here require 1,000hrs TT and 200hrs Turbine. So until you have that magic 1,000hrs forget about chasing turbine time. If the employer really wants you for who you are and how you fly then that little 200hrs turbine time won't make a difference. Putting someone on a named pilot list isn't a very hard thing to do. Rather chase the hours to 1,000 and then worry about it later.
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You know it really depends on what kind of work you want to do. As posted before it is alot easier to get you 1000hrs PIC and then work for an off shore company as they will pay for all your transition training.
Even with the 100hrs of turbine insurance companies will ussualy want a factory course completted. Remeber though smaller companies will not want to invest the money in you if they think you may leave soon. I did not want to go offshore so the little turbine time I had and knowing the right people paid off as I was able to do the factory course cheap, build turbine time and be home every night. (apart from the occasional call out of course)
If you have a misses or for any other reason you can not go off shore and you want to work in the area you live. The best thing is networking.... this is even better than having a lot of hrs. The old saying, treat everyone in the helicopter bussiness as though they were your next employer. If not the next employer, they may be able to line you up with someone that is looking for a pilot. It is a lot to do with who you know, especially if you are a low time pilot.
Everyone that sent me a PM, I really appreciate the offers but I think I am going to give a low Turbine time pilot I know a break.....
Again it is who you know. And no he will not be under paid.
Even with the 100hrs of turbine insurance companies will ussualy want a factory course completted. Remeber though smaller companies will not want to invest the money in you if they think you may leave soon. I did not want to go offshore so the little turbine time I had and knowing the right people paid off as I was able to do the factory course cheap, build turbine time and be home every night. (apart from the occasional call out of course)
If you have a misses or for any other reason you can not go off shore and you want to work in the area you live. The best thing is networking.... this is even better than having a lot of hrs. The old saying, treat everyone in the helicopter bussiness as though they were your next employer. If not the next employer, they may be able to line you up with someone that is looking for a pilot. It is a lot to do with who you know, especially if you are a low time pilot.
Everyone that sent me a PM, I really appreciate the offers but I think I am going to give a low Turbine time pilot I know a break.....
Again it is who you know. And no he will not be under paid.
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Thanks
Anti Talk...Thanks for the info.. not a loaded question..just an open one!
I am hoping to follow the 'local' path here in SE UK as my girfriend has a career in motion in London - and I am happy here.. of course if that transpires as not possible I am open to all options globally - she is too..
I did commercial mountain and sling training in New Zealand and loved that environment - but I also love the challenge of airspace over London etc.. Anyway to improve my chances though I'm just wondering what the costs/ licence pitfalls are of doing turbine hours with/without an instructor over there. I am doing my 206 rating here imminently in the last hours pre-CPL (all exams done) and have a very supportive CFI/other instructors/company who intend to ease me into work here.. but I am sure they would like me to have more turbine experience post my CPL. If there is someway/where that I can do that I would be interested to hear...
Chris
I am hoping to follow the 'local' path here in SE UK as my girfriend has a career in motion in London - and I am happy here.. of course if that transpires as not possible I am open to all options globally - she is too..
I did commercial mountain and sling training in New Zealand and loved that environment - but I also love the challenge of airspace over London etc.. Anyway to improve my chances though I'm just wondering what the costs/ licence pitfalls are of doing turbine hours with/without an instructor over there. I am doing my 206 rating here imminently in the last hours pre-CPL (all exams done) and have a very supportive CFI/other instructors/company who intend to ease me into work here.. but I am sure they would like me to have more turbine experience post my CPL. If there is someway/where that I can do that I would be interested to hear...
Chris
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Thanks for the answers everybody!
As in many industries, if can often be who you know!
As I'll probably be going back to the UK it sounds like the turbine time will be quite useful.
Also I should have mentioned that the turbine time won't be down to my expense, it's a couple of first job opportunities that I'm trying to weigh up which one to go for.
Take care,
B1GJ1M
As in many industries, if can often be who you know!
As I'll probably be going back to the UK it sounds like the turbine time will be quite useful.
Also I should have mentioned that the turbine time won't be down to my expense, it's a couple of first job opportunities that I'm trying to weigh up which one to go for.
Take care,
B1GJ1M
