Guimbal Cabri G2
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: france
Age: 64
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Me wonders if they are contemplating buying design rights or a manufacturing licence.
They simply need a safe, reliable, modern and low cost machine that behaves like an EC for teaching debutants ab initio.
And the Cabri does it.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Kings Caple, Ross-on-Wye.orPiccots End. Hertfordshire
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G2 going on G4 !
Bruno Guimbal's Cabri.
EC are very obliquely involved with Monsieur Guimbal's new machine. Yes it is a smaller ship even than R22, but the cabin size is similar but wider. Conventional cyclic and the only reserve I had was the heavier than expected controls.
Still, as an instructor, I teach off the standard beam with the even heavier Enstrom models.
Royal Air Force teaching. Change .. Check .. Adjust .. Trim.
Once the G2 arrives in the schools, I'd suggest instructors teach leading with trim. (horror of horrors I know!) But they don't fly 74s manually and trim later.
In any case Monsieur Guimbal may be working on lightening up the cyclic.
A 40 Kg Luggage locker is standard and the crew's bum are a sensible distance from the point of impact.
Also a very expensive F1 style rubber fuel tank that doesn't tear when impacted. Lots and lots of safety goodies like that. M/R head and blades subjected to 200,000 events for certification.
I liked the G2, mainly because I feel ... like the R22 did, it will further the ab initio market for everyones benefit.
It is a sharp handler, but I don't think Bruno has any plans to let me display his pet baby.
For those that aren't LOOP readers, the Feb issue has our air test report which will answer most questions above. All can get on the distribution list.
Just log on to: www.loop.aero ... and its free. Currently circulating 25,000 copies to a dedicated audience. Overseas ... they will ask you to pay postage only.
Best wishes all,
dennis Kenyon.
EC are very obliquely involved with Monsieur Guimbal's new machine. Yes it is a smaller ship even than R22, but the cabin size is similar but wider. Conventional cyclic and the only reserve I had was the heavier than expected controls.
Still, as an instructor, I teach off the standard beam with the even heavier Enstrom models.
Royal Air Force teaching. Change .. Check .. Adjust .. Trim.
Once the G2 arrives in the schools, I'd suggest instructors teach leading with trim. (horror of horrors I know!) But they don't fly 74s manually and trim later.
In any case Monsieur Guimbal may be working on lightening up the cyclic.
A 40 Kg Luggage locker is standard and the crew's bum are a sensible distance from the point of impact.
Also a very expensive F1 style rubber fuel tank that doesn't tear when impacted. Lots and lots of safety goodies like that. M/R head and blades subjected to 200,000 events for certification.
I liked the G2, mainly because I feel ... like the R22 did, it will further the ab initio market for everyones benefit.
It is a sharp handler, but I don't think Bruno has any plans to let me display his pet baby.
For those that aren't LOOP readers, the Feb issue has our air test report which will answer most questions above. All can get on the distribution list.
Just log on to: www.loop.aero ... and its free. Currently circulating 25,000 copies to a dedicated audience. Overseas ... they will ask you to pay postage only.
Best wishes all,
dennis Kenyon.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: UK
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Fantastic news
It looks and must be a fantastic heli....
as an FI i would prefer this to the R22!!! Lets see if UK schools will trust it in the near future.
We must move forward, helis like this must me supported!!!
The price difference looks small if you consider what you're buying..
It is like comparing the EC120 with the 206...hence Bell stoped the production now!!!
Could that be the end of the R22
hhhhhmmmmm
This chap's story reminds me of Frank Robinson's success story....
Only time will tell, can't wait to fly one of this now
as an FI i would prefer this to the R22!!! Lets see if UK schools will trust it in the near future.
We must move forward, helis like this must me supported!!!
The price difference looks small if you consider what you're buying..
It is like comparing the EC120 with the 206...hence Bell stoped the production now!!!
Could that be the end of the R22
hhhhhmmmmmThis chap's story reminds me of Frank Robinson's success story....
Only time will tell, can't wait to fly one of this now
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Sydney
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another goat?
Great article, once I got used to reading through a letterbox slot. So cabri is french for goat & the turbine R44 is a goat too, what is it with these manufacturers?
Wonder if the 'on condition' nature of cabri maintenance will make it cheaper than an R22 over the 12 year cycle of the latter?
So is someone going to organise a pic of the Cabri against the background of that new 'bridge in the sky' the frogs have bulit themselves?
Wonder if the 'on condition' nature of cabri maintenance will make it cheaper than an R22 over the 12 year cycle of the latter?
So is someone going to organise a pic of the Cabri against the background of that new 'bridge in the sky' the frogs have bulit themselves?
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As much as it looks like a great little heli and possibly a better trainer than the R22 I can't see it really catching on until it is as cheap to buy and run as the R22. Cost to the punter rules the training market. The only reason people choose the R22 over the R44 to do their licence is due to cost. Everyone knows the R44 is a much better heli but when their PPL is going to cost £8,000 more, people always choose the R22, unless they are stinking rich and planning to buy an R44.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: London
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Hi Guys
I'm a PPL(H) trainee, nearing completion, read the boards quite a lot, but wanted to contribute to this one.
Having flown an R22, plenty of EOL's... some quite bumpy, sadly upset by the lack of goodies (glass), range, speed, and other shallow matters like that one. I'm very interested in this machine, for one if Dennis and the Gumibal's claims are true, this is a safer machine - more time to get the lever down makes safer low hrs pilots, and smoother less damaging landings. The glass is very cool and reduces pilot load, and the more advanced fenestron and head make it a better trainer if you are ever looking into the bigger 120's etc
I like it, and I think that it's popularity vs. the R22 will come down to a combination of the above and the cost. The cost of cousre will depend on a number of factors, insurance (possibly safer), Fuel consumption with that new gadgety plasma thingy and auto carb heater and light weight, resale - which I imagine will be much slower than the R22's.
I for one hope, and allmost imagine that you will be cost neutral / minimal. If I'd have been given the choice at say £10-£20 per hour more... I'd have probably done it.... More intertia in the head, is a very good thing.
Having said that, I don't regret a minute in the 22, can't wait to finish and get involved in some type conversions though. 44 next
I do very much like the idea of it getting a mini jet engine though ;-)
I'm a PPL(H) trainee, nearing completion, read the boards quite a lot, but wanted to contribute to this one.
Having flown an R22, plenty of EOL's... some quite bumpy, sadly upset by the lack of goodies (glass), range, speed, and other shallow matters like that one. I'm very interested in this machine, for one if Dennis and the Gumibal's claims are true, this is a safer machine - more time to get the lever down makes safer low hrs pilots, and smoother less damaging landings. The glass is very cool and reduces pilot load, and the more advanced fenestron and head make it a better trainer if you are ever looking into the bigger 120's etc
I like it, and I think that it's popularity vs. the R22 will come down to a combination of the above and the cost. The cost of cousre will depend on a number of factors, insurance (possibly safer), Fuel consumption with that new gadgety plasma thingy and auto carb heater and light weight, resale - which I imagine will be much slower than the R22's.
I for one hope, and allmost imagine that you will be cost neutral / minimal. If I'd have been given the choice at say £10-£20 per hour more... I'd have probably done it.... More intertia in the head, is a very good thing.
Having said that, I don't regret a minute in the 22, can't wait to finish and get involved in some type conversions though. 44 next
I do very much like the idea of it getting a mini jet engine though ;-)
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"more time to get the lever down makes safer low hrs pilots,"
Why is everyone hung up on how long it takes to get the lever down in an R22? Weather, hitting things (the ground, fence posts, trees etc), lack of fuel, lack of carb-heat, lack of power (eg too heavy, downwind), and bad-decision making make up the majority of small helicopter accidents.
Why is everyone hung up on how long it takes to get the lever down in an R22? Weather, hitting things (the ground, fence posts, trees etc), lack of fuel, lack of carb-heat, lack of power (eg too heavy, downwind), and bad-decision making make up the majority of small helicopter accidents.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: London
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Sorry to wake you up manfromuncle... maybe I should have said:
More inertia in the blades allows more time than an R22 does to sucessfully enter autorotaion, whilst the practice of quick decision in the R22 is valuable experience, the extra time in the G2 may allow more sucessful decisions to enter auto, of course this is only one aspect of safe flying a heli and pilots should allways considder "Weather, hitting things (the ground, fence posts, trees etc), lack of fuel, lack of carb-heat, lack of power (eg too heavy, downwind), and bad-decision making make up the majority of small helicopter accidents"
Of course the G2 also has auto carb heat, so that's something I'm glad you pointed out.
Many appologies.
More inertia in the blades allows more time than an R22 does to sucessfully enter autorotaion, whilst the practice of quick decision in the R22 is valuable experience, the extra time in the G2 may allow more sucessful decisions to enter auto, of course this is only one aspect of safe flying a heli and pilots should allways considder "Weather, hitting things (the ground, fence posts, trees etc), lack of fuel, lack of carb-heat, lack of power (eg too heavy, downwind), and bad-decision making make up the majority of small helicopter accidents"
Of course the G2 also has auto carb heat, so that's something I'm glad you pointed out.
Many appologies.
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Also missed the fact that the G2 has digital fuel computer. It tells you burn rates and time left. Another possible R22 vs safety feature.
Thanks for making these points manfromuncle
Thanks for making these points manfromuncle
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Yes, auto carb heat sounds good. Much better than the carb-heat assist in the R22 which no-one seems to like.
If they get the cost per hour-to-the-punter down to under £30 per hour more than the R22 - then it'll be a winner.
Although it's a bit 'chicken-and-egg' with the numbers of aircraft available. If there is hardly any around then people won't train on them (bit like the Schweizer these days in the UK).
We'll see what happens, I wouldn't mind a go in one myself.
If they get the cost per hour-to-the-punter down to under £30 per hour more than the R22 - then it'll be a winner.
Although it's a bit 'chicken-and-egg' with the numbers of aircraft available. If there is hardly any around then people won't train on them (bit like the Schweizer these days in the UK).
We'll see what happens, I wouldn't mind a go in one myself.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Kings Caple, Ross-on-Wye.orPiccots End. Hertfordshire
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Operating cost Cabri G2
Okay guys ...
Here's a personal estimate of the likely costs of flying the Cabri G2 and I hasten to add these ARE personal and not approved by the parent factory. (Just my forty years of experience operating light training helicopters.)
Many operators don't want to know about the depreciation element and IF you are clever enough to sell your machines for the same or more as you paid for them ... then wipe out that figure.
Depreciation is based on a twelve year write down of 70% of the capital cost. ie ... a residual value of 30% in twelve years time. Probably conservative.
Insurance came today from an aviation broker offering a CSL and a declared
hull value of £180k.
I imagine the trade will get a buying discount of the RRP but who knows. AND once the type arrives on the second hand market, the capital (fixed) costs will come tumbling down, albeit as the machine gets older the hourly maintenance and parts cost go up!.
So here we go.
Acquistion cost. Euro 250,000. Say £180,000
Fixed costs.
Depreciation. £180,000 less residual £54k
Gives £126,000 over twelve years. £10,500 per annum
Insurance at 5.4% CSL 9,720 " "
Interest at say 6% on £180k 10,800 " "
Some hangarage Say 2,500 " "
Total fixed costs PA. £33,520
Fly 300 hrs PA £111, 70p per hour
Fly 500 hrs PA 67. 00p " "
Fly 700 hrs PA 47. 98p " "
Hourly costs.
Fuel at 38 litres an hour 105p per litre £39. 0p per hr.
Airframe parts. Best guess ! Say 12. 00 " "
Lycoming engine £12,000 @ 2300 hrs 6. 00 " "
Labour Another best guess ! 15. 00 " "
Unscheduled bits & pieces Say 5. 00 " "
Total estimated hourly cost £77. 00 " "
Total hourly cost.
300 hrs PA £188. 00p
500 hrs PA 144. 00p
700 hrs PA 125. 00p
So there we have it. For the high houred operators who build in ALL their costs and fly 700 hrs. ALL over £125 per hour is sales margin. Fly 1000 hrs a year and the rate drops to £110. Buy a second hand Cabri and the rate could be 75% less than the above!
Just to say again, the above are my estimates and I await with interest the factory published figures.
And just as a side note. The fixed costs are mostly related to the acquisition cost, not the name on the side of the helicopter, albit depreciation and insurance could vary marginally.
Accountants please have fun with my figures!
Best wishes aLL,
Dennis Kenyon
Here's a personal estimate of the likely costs of flying the Cabri G2 and I hasten to add these ARE personal and not approved by the parent factory. (Just my forty years of experience operating light training helicopters.)
Many operators don't want to know about the depreciation element and IF you are clever enough to sell your machines for the same or more as you paid for them ... then wipe out that figure.
Depreciation is based on a twelve year write down of 70% of the capital cost. ie ... a residual value of 30% in twelve years time. Probably conservative.
Insurance came today from an aviation broker offering a CSL and a declared
hull value of £180k.
I imagine the trade will get a buying discount of the RRP but who knows. AND once the type arrives on the second hand market, the capital (fixed) costs will come tumbling down, albeit as the machine gets older the hourly maintenance and parts cost go up!.
So here we go.
Acquistion cost. Euro 250,000. Say £180,000
Fixed costs.
Depreciation. £180,000 less residual £54k
Gives £126,000 over twelve years. £10,500 per annum
Insurance at 5.4% CSL 9,720 " "
Interest at say 6% on £180k 10,800 " "
Some hangarage Say 2,500 " "
Total fixed costs PA. £33,520
Fly 300 hrs PA £111, 70p per hour
Fly 500 hrs PA 67. 00p " "
Fly 700 hrs PA 47. 98p " "
Hourly costs.
Fuel at 38 litres an hour 105p per litre £39. 0p per hr.
Airframe parts. Best guess ! Say 12. 00 " "
Lycoming engine £12,000 @ 2300 hrs 6. 00 " "
Labour Another best guess ! 15. 00 " "
Unscheduled bits & pieces Say 5. 00 " "
Total estimated hourly cost £77. 00 " "
Total hourly cost.
300 hrs PA £188. 00p
500 hrs PA 144. 00p
700 hrs PA 125. 00p
So there we have it. For the high houred operators who build in ALL their costs and fly 700 hrs. ALL over £125 per hour is sales margin. Fly 1000 hrs a year and the rate drops to £110. Buy a second hand Cabri and the rate could be 75% less than the above!
Just to say again, the above are my estimates and I await with interest the factory published figures.
And just as a side note. The fixed costs are mostly related to the acquisition cost, not the name on the side of the helicopter, albit depreciation and insurance could vary marginally.
Accountants please have fun with my figures!
Best wishes aLL,
Dennis Kenyon
Join Date: Feb 2006
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euro envy
Well, I never thought I'd say this, but I'm a bit envious of you guys on the continent. With the low production volumes me thinks it's going to be a looong time before we see one down here in Oz.
Join Date: Jan 2003
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UK Certification
Being a bit dim in this and many other matters, how will UK certification of the Cabri go? Having been EASA approved, how far does that go with the CAA here in the UK? Are we looking at a lengthy certification process for the Cabri in the UK? (Apologies if I've missed this question elsewhere)
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Looks like Guimbal will be operated typical French style. I have emailed them twice for info & they have not both to respond, at least not in the last 4 weeks. If only they learnt some people skills. Any one know of how or through who to arrange a sale?
News!
New flight video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2_zWf-Ywpk
and if you go to www.loop.aero and sign up for a free acount you can read a review of the Cabri it's a bit fiddly and god only knows why you just can't download the pdf but the feb 2008 edition has a flight review.
New flight video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2_zWf-Ywpk
and if you go to www.loop.aero and sign up for a free acount you can read a review of the Cabri it's a bit fiddly and god only knows why you just can't download the pdf but the feb 2008 edition has a flight review.
Join Date: Jul 2000
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A few notes. It is an impressive looking helicopter. It appears that the high inertia rotor system will make this a much safer helicopter than the R22. Would love to fly one and compare. The biggest issue I have with it right now is that they are associated with Eurocopter and it appears that they are learning some of Eurocopters bad ways. Lack of communication and parts availability. If they can get past that and understand that the market they are dealing with is much different than the government market the Eurocopter works best in, they will give Frank a hard run for his money.
Personally, it is my view that most flight schools treat the R22 as a throw-away helicopter. Run it out, sell it for as much as they can and get and new one. In many ways it makes sense for them to do that. With reasonable component and inspection times, this helicopter will do quite well in the training and personal market.
Personally, it is my view that most flight schools treat the R22 as a throw-away helicopter. Run it out, sell it for as much as they can and get and new one. In many ways it makes sense for them to do that. With reasonable component and inspection times, this helicopter will do quite well in the training and personal market.
