Guimbal Cabri G2
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Entry level training machines are always going to see a higher incident rate by definition. I suspect that in another 10 years, when a significant history of G2 op's has been built up, that the incident rates of the R22 and G2 will be very comparable even though their design and construction is different.
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Keep in mind that the R66 had 2 fatal accidents well before sn 100 was delivered. Considering that the G2 is a trainer and a new design at that, the accident rate at present seems to quite reasonable.
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Thanks for your nice comment claudia
but next time and before to jump on a topic and to spit on someone, please make an effort, read the previous page. You'll be less ridiculous.
I've answered to H500 this morning.
By the way, I don't have any elements about the circonstances of these two crashes but I'm interested to get some.
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Thanks for your nice comment claudia
but next time and before to jump on a topic and to spit on someone, please make an effort, read the previous page. You'll be less ridiculous.
I've answered to H500 this morning.
By the way, I don't have any elements about the circonstances of these two crashes but I'm interested to get some.
.
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HH. I did read the previous pages and wondered why you had not alerted us to these disasters after being so good at keeping us up to date on the g 2.
To say that i would" spit" on you or anyone else is offensive, and out of order.
To say that i would" spit" on you or anyone else is offensive, and out of order.
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I have not post on this topic for nearly two months before this morning !
My job is not to post on this topic.
How can you call these accidents without any injury ''disasters" ?! (bashing in progress...)
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I have not post on this topic for nearly two months before this morning !
My job is not to post on this topic.
How can you call these accidents without any injury ''disasters" ?! (bashing in progress...)
.
Last edited by HeliHenri; 16th Sep 2015 at 06:58.
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The AS350 B3e had "tail issues". Eurocopter falls back on load compensator as fix for AS350 B3e | Vertical Magazine - The Pulse of the Helicopter Industry (Hyperlink insert not working). The R44 had "blade issues" (delamination - ask Blackmax). Those are examples of "issues"; this one is not.
By the definition applied in this thread there are "handling issues" for all teetering-head rotor craft (negative G tail chop) many Airbus (Jack stall - being a possible contribution to the McCrea fatal). I could go on and list "issues" for most machines by this definition.
I do not see any "tail issues" on the G2, or any other Fenestron tail aircraft - the model list for which is about to increase with the Swiss Marenco Marenco SwisshelicopterMarenco Swisshelicopter There are no "handling issues" on teetering-head rotorcraft, etc, etc.
Fenestron tails have characteristics different from open blade tails. Learn to fly them, stay within their operating envelope, and no problem.
Seriously, this is not rocket science.
And the training has been modified since the first days, as GS Alpha suggests. There is now much more emphasis on yaw control.
By the definition applied in this thread there are "handling issues" for all teetering-head rotor craft (negative G tail chop) many Airbus (Jack stall - being a possible contribution to the McCrea fatal). I could go on and list "issues" for most machines by this definition.
I do not see any "tail issues" on the G2, or any other Fenestron tail aircraft - the model list for which is about to increase with the Swiss Marenco Marenco SwisshelicopterMarenco Swisshelicopter There are no "handling issues" on teetering-head rotorcraft, etc, etc.
Fenestron tails have characteristics different from open blade tails. Learn to fly them, stay within their operating envelope, and no problem.
Seriously, this is not rocket science.
And the training has been modified since the first days, as GS Alpha suggests. There is now much more emphasis on yaw control.
John
Obviously not as people are still stuffing them in with tail issues ! What would be interesting is, is it people doing conversions from a normal TR to a fenestron ? This wouldn't surprise me as abinitio would understand the fenestron from start although having said that most students have a big problem with their feet even up to the end of a course. Most use their feet as a reaction rather than leading / anticipating with the feet !!! This is very common on H369D and E which probably is the most pedally of any helicopter ( due to short tail boom )
Obviously not as people are still stuffing them in with tail issues ! What would be interesting is, is it people doing conversions from a normal TR to a fenestron ? This wouldn't surprise me as abinitio would understand the fenestron from start although having said that most students have a big problem with their feet even up to the end of a course. Most use their feet as a reaction rather than leading / anticipating with the feet !!! This is very common on H369D and E which probably is the most pedally of any helicopter ( due to short tail boom )
Wasn't the whole point of the Cabri to teach these (and other) specific handling characteristics?
Although I heard that once you get past 20° yaw during approach the torque spin will not be recoverable in the Cabri, not sure if it's true?
Although I heard that once you get past 20° yaw during approach the torque spin will not be recoverable in the Cabri, not sure if it's true?
Fenestron's have different characteristics to open tail rotors as John says and you just need to get used to them. I predominantly fly R44 and haven't had any difficulties with yaw control in the G2 on the handful of occasions I've flown them.
As a balancing comment to some of those bashing the G2 above; of all of the post-crash photo's I've seen of the G2, the helicopter always seem to be intact and appears to be doing a good job of protecting its occupants. How many similar mishaps have ended up in a rolled up ball of tin-foil in flames...I notice that the Denham R66 that has rolled over appears to have lost its blades, nose and buckled its tail. The G2 just looks like its lying down for a little sleep!
Training helicopters will crash frequently, simply because of their job and the fact that they spend a lot of time close to the ground!
I would much rather have to pay attention to making the correct pedal inputs than worry about a reacting to an engine failure in less than a second, catching fire after a minor crash or having the rotor or tail come off in unexpected turbulence.
Lets be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Even if you want to brand the fenestron as an 'issue', which I think is unfair, surely that is more than offset by the many other safety improvements that the type offers over the R22.
As I say, I predominately fly R44's and as a personal helicopter think they are the best bet. I think the G2 is too expensive and a little too slow, but it is a fantastic piece of engineering and it is proving itself to be a safe pair of hands in the training environment.
As a balancing comment to some of those bashing the G2 above; of all of the post-crash photo's I've seen of the G2, the helicopter always seem to be intact and appears to be doing a good job of protecting its occupants. How many similar mishaps have ended up in a rolled up ball of tin-foil in flames...I notice that the Denham R66 that has rolled over appears to have lost its blades, nose and buckled its tail. The G2 just looks like its lying down for a little sleep!
Training helicopters will crash frequently, simply because of their job and the fact that they spend a lot of time close to the ground!
I would much rather have to pay attention to making the correct pedal inputs than worry about a reacting to an engine failure in less than a second, catching fire after a minor crash or having the rotor or tail come off in unexpected turbulence.
Lets be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Even if you want to brand the fenestron as an 'issue', which I think is unfair, surely that is more than offset by the many other safety improvements that the type offers over the R22.
As I say, I predominately fly R44's and as a personal helicopter think they are the best bet. I think the G2 is too expensive and a little too slow, but it is a fantastic piece of engineering and it is proving itself to be a safe pair of hands in the training environment.
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whoknows idont
Wasn't the whole point of the Cabri to teach these (and other) specific handling characteristics?
Although I heard that once you get past 20° yaw during approach the torque spin will not be recoverable in the Cabri, not sure if it's true?
Wasn't the whole point of the Cabri to teach these (and other) specific handling characteristics?
Although I heard that once you get past 20° yaw during approach the torque spin will not be recoverable in the Cabri, not sure if it's true?
correct pedal applied
I have flown quite a few types with different rotor directions, tail rotor types - tractor and pusher, plus a couple with the fenestron.
All of them turn left when you apply left pedal and vice versa.
People are obviously reading too much into it and over thinking the whole thing.
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BS?
Early hour pilots, even some high hour pilots, tend to operate their aircraft via muscle memory with insufficient emphasis on external cues, particularly when load shedding under stress.
For these pilots, exposed to an aircraft with the rotor going the other way (I'll leave the question of right or wrong to others) they may.......have difficulty assimilating the response of the aircraft being different to their expectation......
While figuring all this out, the earth may arise and smite thee, although it seems for the Cabri, without the permanence associated with other aircraft types.
Something to consider for those without the mighty experience beholden to some of those on these fora.
Early hour pilots, even some high hour pilots, tend to operate their aircraft via muscle memory with insufficient emphasis on external cues, particularly when load shedding under stress.
For these pilots, exposed to an aircraft with the rotor going the other way (I'll leave the question of right or wrong to others) they may.......have difficulty assimilating the response of the aircraft being different to their expectation......
While figuring all this out, the earth may arise and smite thee, although it seems for the Cabri, without the permanence associated with other aircraft types.
Something to consider for those without the mighty experience beholden to some of those on these fora.
Not true. I was shown a 360 with power applied and pedals unchanged at the bottom of a standard descent profile. yaw ceased in less than another 30 degrees.
Btw I found clockwise MR feeling more natural because the left foot has to move up when the left arm moves up as opposed to "crossed input".
