Helitech 2007 incl photos
skidlid.
No. Wrong colour.
I expect that full deroling [not just disconnecting a few wires and undoing a dozen bolts] was just held back by time available and the age old problem of getting enough engineers to do the job. If all of it is not stripped out it has payload issues.
No. Wrong colour.
I expect that full deroling [not just disconnecting a few wires and undoing a dozen bolts] was just held back by time available and the age old problem of getting enough engineers to do the job. If all of it is not stripped out it has payload issues.
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PANews
I doubt whether the "wrong colour" would put off a police ASU that was urgently in need of a spare. An available MD902 in police fit is a rare commodity at the moment and I'm sure would be lapped up whatever the colour. There are still some ASUs that don't use the now traditional blue/yellow colours.
Temporarily covering up the "Air Ambulance" sign is an easy process which PAS has used many times before. The old PAS BO105s continually flitted from one role to another with the use of stick-on signs.
With regard to lack of time and engineers, the removal of the belly role-pod is easy and takes little engineering time. It is just a case of "disconnecting a few wires and undoing a dozen bolts"; PAS Projects Department designed it that way. The removal of the Nitesun is even quicker.
The role-pod and Nitesun would have to have been removed for the re-spray anyway, so why spend extra engineering time in re-fitting them unless they wanted to use them again?
I doubt whether the "wrong colour" would put off a police ASU that was urgently in need of a spare. An available MD902 in police fit is a rare commodity at the moment and I'm sure would be lapped up whatever the colour. There are still some ASUs that don't use the now traditional blue/yellow colours.
Temporarily covering up the "Air Ambulance" sign is an easy process which PAS has used many times before. The old PAS BO105s continually flitted from one role to another with the use of stick-on signs.
With regard to lack of time and engineers, the removal of the belly role-pod is easy and takes little engineering time. It is just a case of "disconnecting a few wires and undoing a dozen bolts"; PAS Projects Department designed it that way. The removal of the Nitesun is even quicker.
The role-pod and Nitesun would have to have been removed for the re-spray anyway, so why spend extra engineering time in re-fitting them unless they wanted to use them again?
To take your points in order Skidkid...
I doubt whether the "wrong colour" would put off a police ASU.
Wrong colour should. Thats why they are blue and yellow - a Home Office requirement after all. Lets call it a 'deterent' to using KSSH then. The Met wanted to retain the difference represented by the 'jam sandwich on white' of their AS355N's but were over-ruled - as were Western Counties who wanted a snazzy scheme for their EC135.
Yes, if there was an urgent need of a spare it might be used but as I would guess that KAAT want it asap they might be displeased if PAS were to just put it back together for another operator. Hardly good customer relations when that customer has agreed to await the completion to a set timescale. Anyway, although I am not in possession of the work sheets I would expect that very soon KSSH will not be an MD902 in police fit, rare commodity or not.
Yes, there are still some ASUs that don't use the now traditional blue/yellow colours but that is mainly because their aircraft have not been repainted since new.
I am not arguing about the removal of the belly role-pod being easy and takes little engineering time. BUT.... if what has to be done to KSSH is simply "disconnecting a few wires and undoing a dozen bolts" then why is it scheduled to take a month? If it takes a month to de-role to ambulance then perhaps it takes a month to re-role it for a 'police spare' ? Spare aircraft by definition need to be capable of multi-tasking, air ambulances do not.
I assume [dangerous word I know] that to occupy themselves for a whole month [when the paint job is already done and dusted] that in addition to some level of service they will be extracting all that weighty gear out of the by the back door and all the EMC causing police role cable ... less the searchlight as they clearly have a use for it. All about weight, payload and performance.
G-KAAT was never to my knowledge dragged back from the customer to serve as a police spare by PAS in seven years. The Wiltshire [dual-role] aircraft is a different kettle of fish and that is occasionally dragged back to suit PAS. Also I know PAS have occasionally prevailed on customers to use their aircraft by arrangement as a demonstrator, the static park at Helitech showed examples of that. But that is not exactly acting as a spare for another customer.
I doubt whether the "wrong colour" would put off a police ASU.
Wrong colour should. Thats why they are blue and yellow - a Home Office requirement after all. Lets call it a 'deterent' to using KSSH then. The Met wanted to retain the difference represented by the 'jam sandwich on white' of their AS355N's but were over-ruled - as were Western Counties who wanted a snazzy scheme for their EC135.
Yes, if there was an urgent need of a spare it might be used but as I would guess that KAAT want it asap they might be displeased if PAS were to just put it back together for another operator. Hardly good customer relations when that customer has agreed to await the completion to a set timescale. Anyway, although I am not in possession of the work sheets I would expect that very soon KSSH will not be an MD902 in police fit, rare commodity or not.
Yes, there are still some ASUs that don't use the now traditional blue/yellow colours but that is mainly because their aircraft have not been repainted since new.
I am not arguing about the removal of the belly role-pod being easy and takes little engineering time. BUT.... if what has to be done to KSSH is simply "disconnecting a few wires and undoing a dozen bolts" then why is it scheduled to take a month? If it takes a month to de-role to ambulance then perhaps it takes a month to re-role it for a 'police spare' ? Spare aircraft by definition need to be capable of multi-tasking, air ambulances do not.
I assume [dangerous word I know] that to occupy themselves for a whole month [when the paint job is already done and dusted] that in addition to some level of service they will be extracting all that weighty gear out of the by the back door and all the EMC causing police role cable ... less the searchlight as they clearly have a use for it. All about weight, payload and performance.
G-KAAT was never to my knowledge dragged back from the customer to serve as a police spare by PAS in seven years. The Wiltshire [dual-role] aircraft is a different kettle of fish and that is occasionally dragged back to suit PAS. Also I know PAS have occasionally prevailed on customers to use their aircraft by arrangement as a demonstrator, the static park at Helitech showed examples of that. But that is not exactly acting as a spare for another customer.
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Helitech 2007 icl photos
CDME I expressed an opion based on visits to previous Helitech exibitions and the comments made by a number of engineers who visited the show and like me have done so for many years. Whilst the sales side may well have been a success, the show from the engineers point of view was bloody awful. Engineers like new little inventions, bits of metal they can pick up and handle. prototype machines they can steal ideas off and occassionaly a salesman who does not talk complete bollocks . Bug.
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PANews
The blue and yellow colours are only a Home Office requirement when Home Office money is being provided to purchase a new aircraft. There is nothing to stop a police service using an aircraft of any colour when Home Office money is not involved, particularly if it is only going to be hired on a temporary basis.
Do you actually know that "KAAT want it asap"? If so, why was G-KSSH sitting on the ground at Duxford last week with a police belly role-pod fitted? Maybe the lease agreement to KAAT has not started yet. You have already said that, "KAAT are not expecting delivery of the aircraft for another month [or so]...". G-INFO shows that G-KSSH is still owned by PAS, so I assume that PAS are entitled to use it as they require, including using it as a police spare.
You are assuming that it will take a month to de-role/re-role the aircraft but I doubt whether this is the case. All of the "weighty gear" such as the police camera system, video recorder, ops console etc can easily be removed within a couple of days. Virtually all the electrical connections are via quick disconnect plugs and sockets.
If I was a decision maker at PAS, I would retain the internal wiring looms so that the aircraft could be used for multi-tasking in the future if necessary. Pulling a few circuit breakers would isolate the police role wiring and prevent any EMC problems. The weight and CofG penalties would be minimal.
I doubt that the Wiltshire aircraft is ever "dragged back to suit PAS...". I am sure you will find that Wiltshire Police allow PAS to use it on occasions, no doubt in exchange for some remuneration or other favour.
The blue and yellow colours are only a Home Office requirement when Home Office money is being provided to purchase a new aircraft. There is nothing to stop a police service using an aircraft of any colour when Home Office money is not involved, particularly if it is only going to be hired on a temporary basis.
Do you actually know that "KAAT want it asap"? If so, why was G-KSSH sitting on the ground at Duxford last week with a police belly role-pod fitted? Maybe the lease agreement to KAAT has not started yet. You have already said that, "KAAT are not expecting delivery of the aircraft for another month [or so]...". G-INFO shows that G-KSSH is still owned by PAS, so I assume that PAS are entitled to use it as they require, including using it as a police spare.
You are assuming that it will take a month to de-role/re-role the aircraft but I doubt whether this is the case. All of the "weighty gear" such as the police camera system, video recorder, ops console etc can easily be removed within a couple of days. Virtually all the electrical connections are via quick disconnect plugs and sockets.
If I was a decision maker at PAS, I would retain the internal wiring looms so that the aircraft could be used for multi-tasking in the future if necessary. Pulling a few circuit breakers would isolate the police role wiring and prevent any EMC problems. The weight and CofG penalties would be minimal.
I doubt that the Wiltshire aircraft is ever "dragged back to suit PAS...". I am sure you will find that Wiltshire Police allow PAS to use it on occasions, no doubt in exchange for some remuneration or other favour.
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PANews
Well well, Bryn, I've just found this article taken from the October 2007 edition of 'Police Aviation News', edited by yourself!
Well well, Bryn, I've just found this article taken from the October 2007 edition of 'Police Aviation News', edited by yourself!
The new Explorer helicopter c/n 0062 G-KSSH [ex-West Midlands Police GWMID] is expected to enter service some time after Helitech, perhaps as late as November.
Yes skidlid.... written by me....
The two points are the same.... 'as late as November'. No shock horror job here.
And both comments [here and there] relate to two conversations I had with the CEO of KAAT as to their expectations for delivery. Not sure why that is supposed to be such a big deal. Certainly not sure what or whom I am supposed to be bashing, certainly not KAAT or the aircraft.... someone thrown a wobbly out there?
There is thick skin, thin skin and no skin here from quichmech. Just stating what I knew to be a fact based on one reasonably important source. And no I didn't ask him any further detail, nuff said on the subject.
G-KSSH was sitting on the ground at Duxford last week with a police belly role-pod fitted for the reasons I gave, it was not role changed to ambulance. That seems to be a fact whether the wires are in or out.
Maybe the lease agreement to KAAT has not started yet? Well I thought there was a leased BO105 aircraft at Dunsfold? That fits the bill doesn't it? So the basic lease has started and KAAT EXPECT TO TAKE DELIVERY OF KSSH IN NOVEMBER. Clearly there will be different costs... so perhaps there will be a new lease created to replace the BO105 lease.
Perhaps rather than knocking the guesses you can enlighten us with chapter and verse then?
The two points are the same.... 'as late as November'. No shock horror job here.
And both comments [here and there] relate to two conversations I had with the CEO of KAAT as to their expectations for delivery. Not sure why that is supposed to be such a big deal. Certainly not sure what or whom I am supposed to be bashing, certainly not KAAT or the aircraft.... someone thrown a wobbly out there?
There is thick skin, thin skin and no skin here from quichmech. Just stating what I knew to be a fact based on one reasonably important source. And no I didn't ask him any further detail, nuff said on the subject.
G-KSSH was sitting on the ground at Duxford last week with a police belly role-pod fitted for the reasons I gave, it was not role changed to ambulance. That seems to be a fact whether the wires are in or out.
Maybe the lease agreement to KAAT has not started yet? Well I thought there was a leased BO105 aircraft at Dunsfold? That fits the bill doesn't it? So the basic lease has started and KAAT EXPECT TO TAKE DELIVERY OF KSSH IN NOVEMBER. Clearly there will be different costs... so perhaps there will be a new lease created to replace the BO105 lease.
Perhaps rather than knocking the guesses you can enlighten us with chapter and verse then?
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Quiche/Skidkid, don’t knock PAN !!!! If all he has to comment about is a couple of Lo-Jack antennas then I think things are going really well. Obviously he has decided to back off MDHI bashing and go for PAS’s throat instead.
Why isn’t G-KSSH going out till November? Well it’s not due to lack of engineers, there’s buckets of those. Why does it still have a belly pannier? Showing your lack of knowledge here PAN but “A belly pannier does not a police aircraft make”, any helicopter can have a pannier and KAAT still want to use the Skyshout, HISL and Nightsun as they do with G-KAAT. It doesn’t weight that much anyway so it may as well stay. Will it ever be used in the police role again? Never ever, just like G-KAAT which incidentally still has the old camera looms fitted and colour has nothing to do with it as G-YPOL is almost identical.
All I can say is the reason is out of PAS’s, KAAT’s and even my hands. Why was East and West Mids new police aircraft delayed so long leaving one unit without air support for weeks? Was it Macs fault? Nope. Sometimes third party equipment takes time to get hold of as Macs found with the camera system.
As for the lo-jack antennas, I’ll chop them off with an axe tomorrow just to keep PAN happy.
Dr A
Why isn’t G-KSSH going out till November? Well it’s not due to lack of engineers, there’s buckets of those. Why does it still have a belly pannier? Showing your lack of knowledge here PAN but “A belly pannier does not a police aircraft make”, any helicopter can have a pannier and KAAT still want to use the Skyshout, HISL and Nightsun as they do with G-KAAT. It doesn’t weight that much anyway so it may as well stay. Will it ever be used in the police role again? Never ever, just like G-KAAT which incidentally still has the old camera looms fitted and colour has nothing to do with it as G-YPOL is almost identical.
All I can say is the reason is out of PAS’s, KAAT’s and even my hands. Why was East and West Mids new police aircraft delayed so long leaving one unit without air support for weeks? Was it Macs fault? Nope. Sometimes third party equipment takes time to get hold of as Macs found with the camera system.
As for the lo-jack antennas, I’ll chop them off with an axe tomorrow just to keep PAN happy.
Dr A
Aha, thanks for the tirade there Dr A, so I am wrong all along and the delay is all about late availability of the medical fit.
There that didn't hurt did it?
There that didn't hurt did it?
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dr atkins
Many thanks for your post and all is now clear.
PANews
It is well known in the UK Emergency Services Aviation community that you have been "bashing" PAS, MDHI and the MD902 for many years. It dates back to at least 10 years ago when you were publishing 'Police Aviation News' (PAN) in a paper format. I have no idea why you do it but, as a result, most people that I know within the industry - pilots, engineers, police officers and medical staff - treat your publication with a certain amount of suspicion.
As editor of PAN, you presumably want your publication to be highly respected, be read with interest, and be an authority within the community. If this is the case then you, as editor, must remain neutral in your opinions and publish only the facts. Otherwise, you will end up like many of the UK Sunday tabloids and be treated as a comic.
If you sign in on PPRuNe as PANews, then people on this forum will know who you are and expect your views to be those of your publication. If you don't maintain the same neutrality and adherence to facts, then your publication will suffer.
In a post on this thread you say that your information is,
You are, presumably, referring to your conversations with the CEO of KAAT. Would it not have been a good idea to ask him for the further details? And, would it not have been a good idea to contact PAS and ascertain the other side of the story? A responsible editor would have done so; or is it because of your dislike of PAS that you didn't do so?
Your posts use phrases such as,
Would it not be a good idea, as a responsible editor, to state the facts and not guess or speculate?
This forum revolves around rumour and speculation and long may it continue. But, the vast majority of the contributors are not editors of responsible aviation publications. If you wish to rumour and speculate, why not sign in under another anonymous name? Otherwise, PAN will suffer even more than it does now.
Many thanks for your post and all is now clear.
PANews
Certainly not sure what or whom I am supposed to be bashing...
As editor of PAN, you presumably want your publication to be highly respected, be read with interest, and be an authority within the community. If this is the case then you, as editor, must remain neutral in your opinions and publish only the facts. Otherwise, you will end up like many of the UK Sunday tabloids and be treated as a comic.
If you sign in on PPRuNe as PANews, then people on this forum will know who you are and expect your views to be those of your publication. If you don't maintain the same neutrality and adherence to facts, then your publication will suffer.
In a post on this thread you say that your information is,
based on one reasonably important source. And no I didn't ask him any further detail...
Your posts use phrases such as,
"I expect that" - "What might happen" - "It might be used" - "I would guess" - "They might be displeased"
This forum revolves around rumour and speculation and long may it continue. But, the vast majority of the contributors are not editors of responsible aviation publications. If you wish to rumour and speculate, why not sign in under another anonymous name? Otherwise, PAN will suffer even more than it does now.
Firstly you take on a mantle that could well be an editor .... yes we know I am one because I have no sneaky title [nor would I consider posting on Pprune using one]. Thought about that years ago and decided against it.
PAN is my publication and you take it as you wish. I do my very best to ensure that what appears there is the best I can do. Sometimes I am duped. [Unlike some] I make no claims to know it all, never have done - although plenty seem to believe that I have to be better than everyone else.
What appears here I stand by. When I write phrases like 'I expect that" - "What might happen" - "It might be used" - "I would guess" that is a clue that I might not be being pedantic about what follows. Remove those words then you have a right to suggest that I am telling porkies.
Pprune is freehand. I do NOT go away and spend six hours researching before uttering a word then wonder why the World has passed on. Like you I guess I take it from the recesses of my brain raw, no spell-check, no dozen rewrites [yes just like you in fact].
So, if I do not know I am now forbidden to openly speculate?
So what is this breed apart that cannot openly speculate in our society? Are we playing Animal Farm? What is Pprune. One thing for you and one for me?
Nuts.
Bashing MDHI?
Oh yes, I bashed MDHI hard and long but it was muted when set against what I THOUGHT I knew and was researched before launching. And I was pretty much right and on the button. Eventually pretty much everyone sang the same song. But that was yesteryear and grown ups forget that - dont they?
So now? Well I would not say the 902 is absolved, but its coming along reasonably well and barring the loss of 10 years research is set to give the others a run for their money in the timescale set by MD. And that means recovery not really starting till early next year, so if there are gripes to come it will be after the team fails to meet stated 2008 targets.
No aircraft is perfect.
PAN is my publication and you take it as you wish. I do my very best to ensure that what appears there is the best I can do. Sometimes I am duped. [Unlike some] I make no claims to know it all, never have done - although plenty seem to believe that I have to be better than everyone else.
What appears here I stand by. When I write phrases like 'I expect that" - "What might happen" - "It might be used" - "I would guess" that is a clue that I might not be being pedantic about what follows. Remove those words then you have a right to suggest that I am telling porkies.
Pprune is freehand. I do NOT go away and spend six hours researching before uttering a word then wonder why the World has passed on. Like you I guess I take it from the recesses of my brain raw, no spell-check, no dozen rewrites [yes just like you in fact].
So, if I do not know I am now forbidden to openly speculate?
So what is this breed apart that cannot openly speculate in our society? Are we playing Animal Farm? What is Pprune. One thing for you and one for me?
Nuts.
Bashing MDHI?
Oh yes, I bashed MDHI hard and long but it was muted when set against what I THOUGHT I knew and was researched before launching. And I was pretty much right and on the button. Eventually pretty much everyone sang the same song. But that was yesteryear and grown ups forget that - dont they?
So now? Well I would not say the 902 is absolved, but its coming along reasonably well and barring the loss of 10 years research is set to give the others a run for their money in the timescale set by MD. And that means recovery not really starting till early next year, so if there are gripes to come it will be after the team fails to meet stated 2008 targets.
No aircraft is perfect.
But...
I have sung that song many times before! Honest!
The 'trouble' is that most readers tend to read the bits about themselves three times and then read the rest quickly... and yes I read my postings ten times and yours only twice...
Human nature!
Must get myself an 'ology BA!
I have sung that song many times before! Honest!
The 'trouble' is that most readers tend to read the bits about themselves three times and then read the rest quickly... and yes I read my postings ten times and yours only twice...
Human nature!
Must get myself an 'ology BA!