McRae Crash & Fatal Accident Inquiry
Thread Starter
McRae Crash & Fatal Accident Inquiry
I do not wish to start a debate inside the other thread running on the Colin Mcrae Crash, partly out of respect and also because I feel this is a related but seperate subject.
How do PPruners view the reporting of this and other crashes in the Media ?
Up to now the media seem to have incorrectly reported this to have been an R44 and a twin squirrel (which if G-CBHL is clearly an AS350).
In the other thread there was what appears to be a newpaper jumping the gun, to announce his death when they were basically quoting what had been written on another papers website at about 2310 last night.
I have just watched David Learmount (spelt correctly I hope) on Sky and couldn't work out if he was deliberately dumbing down hs opinions for the general public, or if what he was saying would make the general public believe that any mafunction of something as complex as a helicopter would cause it to crash. 2 of us just watched it and both thought the same thing. He also didn't make any effort to correct the interviewer who continually referred to a twin squirrel and the other high profile twin squirrel crashes. I am not trying to criticise David, I am just interested as to how these things get presented to the general public.
I would suggest that if there is to be debate on causes (as there usually is after an incident like this) that it is done in here and not on the other thread).
Heliport I hope you see why I've started a new thread, merge it or can it if
you feel appropriate.
How do PPruners view the reporting of this and other crashes in the Media ?
Up to now the media seem to have incorrectly reported this to have been an R44 and a twin squirrel (which if G-CBHL is clearly an AS350).
In the other thread there was what appears to be a newpaper jumping the gun, to announce his death when they were basically quoting what had been written on another papers website at about 2310 last night.
I have just watched David Learmount (spelt correctly I hope) on Sky and couldn't work out if he was deliberately dumbing down hs opinions for the general public, or if what he was saying would make the general public believe that any mafunction of something as complex as a helicopter would cause it to crash. 2 of us just watched it and both thought the same thing. He also didn't make any effort to correct the interviewer who continually referred to a twin squirrel and the other high profile twin squirrel crashes. I am not trying to criticise David, I am just interested as to how these things get presented to the general public.
I would suggest that if there is to be debate on causes (as there usually is after an incident like this) that it is done in here and not on the other thread).
Heliport I hope you see why I've started a new thread, merge it or can it if
you feel appropriate.
Last edited by VeeAny; 16th Sep 2007 at 13:33.
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On the face of it this sounds at least initially like mechanical failure whereas most of the other Twin Squirrel tragedies over the last few years have been pilot error. Although its still possible this was pilot error given that I understand the conditions were windy and rainy on landing, although there seems to be mention of a rotor blade separating before the plunge to the ground.
Is there any reason there should now have been several tragedies with the death of well known people in the Twin Squirrel in the UK or does it simply reflect the kind of customer clientele drawn towards this helicopter rather any inherent airworthiness or mechanical flaws?
Is there any reason there should now have been several tragedies with the death of well known people in the Twin Squirrel in the UK or does it simply reflect the kind of customer clientele drawn towards this helicopter rather any inherent airworthiness or mechanical flaws?
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David is one of those people who always makes himself available to the media after a major crash but is having to comment here in the absence of many hard facts having emerged about the crash as yet other than who was on board and that they would obviously appear to have been killed due to the severe nature of the accident.
Of course I would have expected someone in David's position to probably have contacts that let him fairly easily establish what helicopter Colin McRae owned but don't forget he no doubt agreed to do this interview not long after getting up on a Sunday morning.
Clearly the main issue is whether it was pilot error or not as although this seems kind of unthinkable with the pilot in question these appear to have been blustery conditions and also what about the aspect of the two young children being on board. Could they have caused some kind of distraction just at the wrong moment. The tragic case of the Aeroflot Airbus springs to mind, although that in that case the pilot actually allowed his teenage son to take the controls with disastrous consequences linked to a non fail safe auto pilot design.
Of course I would have expected someone in David's position to probably have contacts that let him fairly easily establish what helicopter Colin McRae owned but don't forget he no doubt agreed to do this interview not long after getting up on a Sunday morning.
Clearly the main issue is whether it was pilot error or not as although this seems kind of unthinkable with the pilot in question these appear to have been blustery conditions and also what about the aspect of the two young children being on board. Could they have caused some kind of distraction just at the wrong moment. The tragic case of the Aeroflot Airbus springs to mind, although that in that case the pilot actually allowed his teenage son to take the controls with disastrous consequences linked to a non fail safe auto pilot design.
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Why oh why oh why...
... in almost every incident of this unfortunate nature does discussion here end up with such scathing attacks on the media?
After scanning the frenzied and grotesquely ill-informed speculation on this site about Colin McRae's demise, I wonder how can anyone here can seriously accuse the media of intrusion, voyeurism or inaccuracy.
The media are grappling today with a lack of official information, trying to satisfy the public's craving for answers (so clearly evinced by posters here) and being pilloried for doing so. How can that possibly be fair? Isn't it just a teensy bit craven and hypocritical to shoot the messenger?
After scanning the frenzied and grotesquely ill-informed speculation on this site about Colin McRae's demise, I wonder how can anyone here can seriously accuse the media of intrusion, voyeurism or inaccuracy.
The media are grappling today with a lack of official information, trying to satisfy the public's craving for answers (so clearly evinced by posters here) and being pilloried for doing so. How can that possibly be fair? Isn't it just a teensy bit craven and hypocritical to shoot the messenger?
Thread Starter
Choppertop
I for one am not trying to pillory the media, Its a serious question about the innacuracies porttrayed by them at times like these.
There is no doubt in my mind that without the media, and sites like PPrune people who have more than a passing interest in events like this would not find out what is going on in a timely fashion (if at all).
I have had my own experiences delaing with the tabloids after a fatal helicopter accident (and the reporters that day, where nothing short of bloodthirsty, trying desperately to bend the conversation the way they wanted it). The media sometimes seem to have a disregard for factual information, perhaps because they have no specialist knowledge in cases like this.
Watching another news report, within the same report a reporter said that the helicopter was taking off, 2 minutes later he said it was returning from a short trip to a local village.
ChopperTop I hope you remain involved in this discussion, and please forgive me, if what I write comes across as overly critical, I am told it is just the way I say things and hope it wont detract from a healthy debate. I seem to remember you identifying yourself as a former Journalist last week. What do you think when things like this are reported innacurately in the media, should they hold back until the facts are established or should they just run with the first thing they pick up on ?
I am not trying to bait you, I am just asking questions.
G.
I for one am not trying to pillory the media, Its a serious question about the innacuracies porttrayed by them at times like these.
There is no doubt in my mind that without the media, and sites like PPrune people who have more than a passing interest in events like this would not find out what is going on in a timely fashion (if at all).
I have had my own experiences delaing with the tabloids after a fatal helicopter accident (and the reporters that day, where nothing short of bloodthirsty, trying desperately to bend the conversation the way they wanted it). The media sometimes seem to have a disregard for factual information, perhaps because they have no specialist knowledge in cases like this.
Watching another news report, within the same report a reporter said that the helicopter was taking off, 2 minutes later he said it was returning from a short trip to a local village.
ChopperTop I hope you remain involved in this discussion, and please forgive me, if what I write comes across as overly critical, I am told it is just the way I say things and hope it wont detract from a healthy debate. I seem to remember you identifying yourself as a former Journalist last week. What do you think when things like this are reported innacurately in the media, should they hold back until the facts are established or should they just run with the first thing they pick up on ?
I am not trying to bait you, I am just asking questions.
G.
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News 'reporting'
This is a tragic event and condolences to the families involved. Sadly as ever, we are now faced with reporters (Sky) and newsroom anchors (oh, sorry, did I leave a letter out), asking of people involved things such as 'can you tell us how the family are taking this', 'how do the family feel at this point' and other such banal questions. We can't begin to imagine how they feel - enough said. Our prayers are with them.
If by any remote possibility someone from news production is reading this, tell your guys to think of something more intelligent to ask, or, better still, don't ask at all.
If by any remote possibility someone from news production is reading this, tell your guys to think of something more intelligent to ask, or, better still, don't ask at all.
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There is commercial pressure on heli pilots sometimes to fly at the edge of the weather envelope. Similarly, there is pressure on journalists to get the story out. People can only strive to get it right and they may fail.
At the BBC, it was a resolute rule that you never went with anything that couldn't be thoroughly 'stood up'. Sometimes sources are flawed. People under pressure are fallible. What can you do? Hacks are human beings. Heli pilots sometimes make bad calls too!
What dismays me is the appalling generalisation, widely shared on this forum, that all journalists distort the truth, hound innocent individuals, dwell ghoulishly on suffering and know disappointingly little about the technical minutiae of helicopters and the helicopter industry.
Is this presumption about journalists truly fair or realistic? If you want facts, someone has to ask the questions for you.
Chops
At the BBC, it was a resolute rule that you never went with anything that couldn't be thoroughly 'stood up'. Sometimes sources are flawed. People under pressure are fallible. What can you do? Hacks are human beings. Heli pilots sometimes make bad calls too!
What dismays me is the appalling generalisation, widely shared on this forum, that all journalists distort the truth, hound innocent individuals, dwell ghoulishly on suffering and know disappointingly little about the technical minutiae of helicopters and the helicopter industry.
Is this presumption about journalists truly fair or realistic? If you want facts, someone has to ask the questions for you.
Chops
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If by any remote possibility someone from news production is reading this, tell your guys to think of something more intelligent to ask, or, better still, don't ask at all.
The only intelligent news coverage is about how the crash seems to have happened, when it happened, who was killed, what type of helicopter is involved and whether there have been many previous serious or fatal incidents with that helicopter type.
The other relevant coverage is a biography of Colin McRae's life and achievements and tributes from all his motorsport friends and/or other relevant national figures like Gordon Brown (a fellow Scot).
Any gung ho me, me, me and my succesful life type news anchor who asks how the family is feeling in these circumstances needs to be either summarily sacked or at least suspended for a month and sent immediately on a course in bereavement counselling.
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Media petty
Hi
Firstly, who bloody cares what the media think anyway and to what information is given and what helicopter type is involved.
The fact of the matter is a helicopter had crashed yesterday and everyone that is writing in this forum are all jumping to conclusion.
No one has been identified and to start speculating about the cause and who was killed can we the professional's have a little maturity and let authorities do thier job
I would like pass my condolises to the familes involved in this tracic accident.
best regards
Firstly, who bloody cares what the media think anyway and to what information is given and what helicopter type is involved.
The fact of the matter is a helicopter had crashed yesterday and everyone that is writing in this forum are all jumping to conclusion.
No one has been identified and to start speculating about the cause and who was killed can we the professional's have a little maturity and let authorities do thier job
I would like pass my condolises to the familes involved in this tracic accident.
best regards
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One thing that often happens to me, being in the hgeli industry, is people asking me about it. I tend to always give the same reply "Wait for the AAIB report".
In the media, after a lot of coverage on an accident, they more often than not do not give the findings. When the report is published some months or years later, its old news - that angers me.
Another media point is there is always a lack of knowledge demonstrated. Also, an irritating habit of trying to link high profile crashes together, thereby creating a new story concerning a possibly 'flawed aircraft'.
With so much 'rolling news', I think quantity has sqashed quality. With any accident, the real cause or causes, will take time to discover. The media rush for a quick on-stop cause is futile and misleading. The use of phrases such as 'pilot error' is an example of outdated and simplistic thinking.
How should the media deal with accidents such as this? With the known facts at the time. There should be none of the tedious and useless speculation and a parade of 'experts' who don't have any further knowledge of the event or its causes (consider the rolling news coverage of events like the London bombings with hours of television, minutes of facts and the remainder pure speculation).
Simply stick to the basic facts of what has occured, when and perhaps, to whom (the latter unavoidable if famous). Eye witness reports and other associated information should be left out and maybe, just maybe, the media could inform the public where to find the official report once it is ready. I would suspect that most would be surprised at the length of time that will take but will give the best explanation of the accident. However, by that time the mass media will be on to something else by then.
In the media, after a lot of coverage on an accident, they more often than not do not give the findings. When the report is published some months or years later, its old news - that angers me.
Another media point is there is always a lack of knowledge demonstrated. Also, an irritating habit of trying to link high profile crashes together, thereby creating a new story concerning a possibly 'flawed aircraft'.
With so much 'rolling news', I think quantity has sqashed quality. With any accident, the real cause or causes, will take time to discover. The media rush for a quick on-stop cause is futile and misleading. The use of phrases such as 'pilot error' is an example of outdated and simplistic thinking.
How should the media deal with accidents such as this? With the known facts at the time. There should be none of the tedious and useless speculation and a parade of 'experts' who don't have any further knowledge of the event or its causes (consider the rolling news coverage of events like the London bombings with hours of television, minutes of facts and the remainder pure speculation).
Simply stick to the basic facts of what has occured, when and perhaps, to whom (the latter unavoidable if famous). Eye witness reports and other associated information should be left out and maybe, just maybe, the media could inform the public where to find the official report once it is ready. I would suspect that most would be surprised at the length of time that will take but will give the best explanation of the accident. However, by that time the mass media will be on to something else by then.
McRae's father, Jimmy, has just given a BBC interview in which he states that he is certain (from the track flown by the Squirrel) that the accident is due to a problem, not pilot error.
Choppertop - perhaps if the media stopped broadcasting 'eyewitness' reports that 'the engine sounded rough' or 'a blade looked like it fell off' in a pathetic attempt at newsgathering then people might be more understanding of your plight.
Joe public has no understanding of most aviation matters and vague, inaccurate or misleading information from a bloke standing in his field is not what quality media journalists should be giving to the world , no matter how 'hungry' for the news we appear to be.
JimBall, while I sympathise with Jimmy McRae's loss - he is hardly in a position to speculate on the cause.
Joe public has no understanding of most aviation matters and vague, inaccurate or misleading information from a bloke standing in his field is not what quality media journalists should be giving to the world , no matter how 'hungry' for the news we appear to be.
JimBall, while I sympathise with Jimmy McRae's loss - he is hardly in a position to speculate on the cause.
Crab wrote:
You can't blame the media for broadcasting eyewitness accounts. These are precisely what the general public wants, and since the general public is the punter, that's what they are given.
And, if what the eyewitnesses sound stupid (often, I agree), then that's not the news outlets' fault, either.
What I do dislike is when aviation journalists give interviews to the broadcast media when they don't actually have anything to say. Often, it smacks of commercial opportunism, and rarely does it add anything to the picture.
David Learmount may well have been pressed into giving an interview by his paymasters at Flight, but when he got on camera he should have been quite clear that speculation was unhelpful and not in the immediate best interests of the families of those involved.
Choppertop - perhaps if the media stopped broadcasting 'eyewitness' reports that 'the engine sounded rough' or 'a blade looked like it fell off' in a pathetic attempt at newsgathering then people might be more understanding of your plight.
And, if what the eyewitnesses sound stupid (often, I agree), then that's not the news outlets' fault, either.
What I do dislike is when aviation journalists give interviews to the broadcast media when they don't actually have anything to say. Often, it smacks of commercial opportunism, and rarely does it add anything to the picture.
David Learmount may well have been pressed into giving an interview by his paymasters at Flight, but when he got on camera he should have been quite clear that speculation was unhelpful and not in the immediate best interests of the families of those involved.
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Defending journalism (or not)
I never sought to defend sloppy journalism. And I wince when I see lazying interviewing techniques, ill-informed reporter speculation dressed up as fact and so on. It just gets on my tits that people here are happy to speculate feverishly about a crash and its causes and yet, when the media does the exact same thing, it is seen has immoral and disgraceful. Many of my mates work bloody hard to get the truth out -- and not only for their own self-agrandisement or financial reward. I defend them.
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Whilst we must not speculate excessively given where the accident happened and what happened (i.e. helicopter fell out of the sky near landing with no Mayday call after no previous reported problems with the flight) there are only really a limited number of likely causes:-
(a) Sudden catastrophic mechanical failure that there was no time to recover or do anything about so near the ground. Although helicopters are supposed to auto rotate to the ground in the events of engine failure does this still work when there is so little clearance from the ground or in the event of catastrophic gearbox failure. It also goes without saying that if the rotors themselves break then you are presumably a dead duck. Also I suppose that unexpected mechanical failure can then be broken down in to neglected or poor quality maintenance or alternatively a hidden manufacturer production defect or an inherent design defect on this helicopter type in certain flying situations.
(b) Sudden freak weather conditions with a massive downdraft or sideways wind shear as the helicopter neared the landing site. Perhaps such conditions were outside the experience of this pilot or perhaps unrecoverable by any pilot in this helicopter with so little altitude left to play with.
(c) Unthinkable but that something happened with the 5 and 6 year old children on board to massively distract Colin at a critical moment thus causing him to lose control of the flight.
(d) Not speculated on so far but how about something as simple and tragic as running out of fuel. It seems unlikely and one imagines there are warning buzzers etc for low fuel condition and obviously unlike a fixed wing aircraft in a copter you should be able to find somewhere to set down in time. But what if the low fuel warning system was defective.
What have I left out? Perhaps only the aircraft being brought down by gunfire or a ground to air missile. This last option seems so unlikely as to be able to be almost immediately discounted.
In the absent of any black boxes or voice recorders on a small helicopter like this we are obviously going to have to wait for a very long and painstaking analysis of the wreckage by the AAIB. The fact that the wreckage is nearly all findable within a small area and is not on the bottom of a lake or the sea must improve the chances of the cause being deduced if it was mechanical failure. If it was not mechanical failure then it is doubtful that precisely what happened and how it happened will ever be known. The tragic crash of JFK Junior at Martha's Vineyard springs to mind as such a case.
(a) Sudden catastrophic mechanical failure that there was no time to recover or do anything about so near the ground. Although helicopters are supposed to auto rotate to the ground in the events of engine failure does this still work when there is so little clearance from the ground or in the event of catastrophic gearbox failure. It also goes without saying that if the rotors themselves break then you are presumably a dead duck. Also I suppose that unexpected mechanical failure can then be broken down in to neglected or poor quality maintenance or alternatively a hidden manufacturer production defect or an inherent design defect on this helicopter type in certain flying situations.
(b) Sudden freak weather conditions with a massive downdraft or sideways wind shear as the helicopter neared the landing site. Perhaps such conditions were outside the experience of this pilot or perhaps unrecoverable by any pilot in this helicopter with so little altitude left to play with.
(c) Unthinkable but that something happened with the 5 and 6 year old children on board to massively distract Colin at a critical moment thus causing him to lose control of the flight.
(d) Not speculated on so far but how about something as simple and tragic as running out of fuel. It seems unlikely and one imagines there are warning buzzers etc for low fuel condition and obviously unlike a fixed wing aircraft in a copter you should be able to find somewhere to set down in time. But what if the low fuel warning system was defective.
What have I left out? Perhaps only the aircraft being brought down by gunfire or a ground to air missile. This last option seems so unlikely as to be able to be almost immediately discounted.
In the absent of any black boxes or voice recorders on a small helicopter like this we are obviously going to have to wait for a very long and painstaking analysis of the wreckage by the AAIB. The fact that the wreckage is nearly all findable within a small area and is not on the bottom of a lake or the sea must improve the chances of the cause being deduced if it was mechanical failure. If it was not mechanical failure then it is doubtful that precisely what happened and how it happened will ever be known. The tragic crash of JFK Junior at Martha's Vineyard springs to mind as such a case.
Since you use the term 'we' in response to a thread that queries the standard of media reporting on this mishap, I have to ask if you are you a journo, Capvermell?
If you are, then I would advise that rather than suggesting likely causes based on what appears to be a half-baked concept of both flying and helicopters, you should instead ask questions and then wait for the responses that may well follow from experienced aviators.
I am a specialist aviation journalist and a PPL(H) holder of 8 years, but I still don't think I know enough to be able to produce in public a definitive list of what was the likely cause. For example, you haven't considered a sudden control restriction or blockage, dynamic roll over, vortex ring, controlled flight into terrain in reduced visibility and so on.
In the interests of getting it right, I am more interested in talking to and listening to experienced helicopter pilots for their take on matters. I would suggest you stand to gain a lot if you do the same.
If you are, then I would advise that rather than suggesting likely causes based on what appears to be a half-baked concept of both flying and helicopters, you should instead ask questions and then wait for the responses that may well follow from experienced aviators.
I am a specialist aviation journalist and a PPL(H) holder of 8 years, but I still don't think I know enough to be able to produce in public a definitive list of what was the likely cause. For example, you haven't considered a sudden control restriction or blockage, dynamic roll over, vortex ring, controlled flight into terrain in reduced visibility and so on.
In the interests of getting it right, I am more interested in talking to and listening to experienced helicopter pilots for their take on matters. I would suggest you stand to gain a lot if you do the same.
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I am a journalist and a PPL(H) holder of 8 years, but I still don't think I know enough to be able to produce in public a definitive list of what was the likely cause. For example, you haven't considered a sudden control restriction or blockage, dynamic roll over, vortex ring, controlled flight into terrain in reduced visibility and so on.
I listed sudden bad weather conditions as a possible cause (I imagine vortex ring is one of those) although I would think controlled flight in to terrain is highly unlikely given that it was daylight and that eyewitness reports do not suggest fog or mist although there was some rain.
I am not a journalist but a financial information collection specialist and investment fund analyst. I will always try to analyse any situation based on the known facts that currently exist. Obviously when more facts come along then one's current holding analytical position may shift.
With respect I think I have enough fascination in air accidents and have read enough books about them and watched enough air accident investigation programs to have a pretty shrewd idea about the likely possible range of causes. Of course I cannot actually fly a helicopter but if the pilot screwed up in operating the controls in an otherwise flyable aircraft then that can all be summarised by the lay person as being pilot error.
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Quote
"With respect I think I have enough fascination in air accidents and have read enough books about them and watched enough air accident investigation programs to have a pretty shrewd idea about the likely possible range of causes. Of course I cannot actually fly a helicopter but if the pilot screwed up in operating the controls in an otherwise flyable aircraft then that can all be summarised by the lay person as being pilot error."
Capvermell, I'd stick to Analysing your financial information, rather than fascinating about air accidents (in public) with an obvious lack of knowledge.
The word 'Muppet' comes to mind!
"With respect I think I have enough fascination in air accidents and have read enough books about them and watched enough air accident investigation programs to have a pretty shrewd idea about the likely possible range of causes. Of course I cannot actually fly a helicopter but if the pilot screwed up in operating the controls in an otherwise flyable aircraft then that can all be summarised by the lay person as being pilot error."
Capvermell, I'd stick to Analysing your financial information, rather than fascinating about air accidents (in public) with an obvious lack of knowledge.
The word 'Muppet' comes to mind!