McRae Crash & Fatal Accident Inquiry
Capvermell
The fact that you think vortex ring is linked to bad weather illustrates very nicely why non-flyers are best advised not to engage in threads such as this. It has nothing to do with ego, and everything to do with credibility - have you ever experienced vortex ring? Do you know how insipid it can be? Do you even know what it is? What are the parameters needed to get into it?
Now, you can take that the wrong way and talk about pilots having ego and the like, or you can just reflect on the fact that aviation is a very complicated business and this forum is full of guys who know it inside out (and i don't include myself in that category) and are much better placed to comment than you.
As for reading books and watching TV programmes, that simply is not enough to make you 'shrewd'. Shrewdness is something you acquire from having been there and done it, not from armchair reading.
The fact that you think vortex ring is linked to bad weather illustrates very nicely why non-flyers are best advised not to engage in threads such as this. It has nothing to do with ego, and everything to do with credibility - have you ever experienced vortex ring? Do you know how insipid it can be? Do you even know what it is? What are the parameters needed to get into it?
Now, you can take that the wrong way and talk about pilots having ego and the like, or you can just reflect on the fact that aviation is a very complicated business and this forum is full of guys who know it inside out (and i don't include myself in that category) and are much better placed to comment than you.
As for reading books and watching TV programmes, that simply is not enough to make you 'shrewd'. Shrewdness is something you acquire from having been there and done it, not from armchair reading.
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Capvermell you blinking idiot.
I would not begin to speculate on what caused the current position the Northern Rock building soc has found itself in because I know nothing of finance. Your ridiculous comments about vortex ring and passengers distracting the pilot sound to professional helicopter aviators like if I started making up reasons why NR are in the poo on a financial analyst discussion forum. I would not do it as it would result in my own ridicule......and I would certainly deserve it. Please please go and spend some (or a lot) of time reading about rotary wing aviation and I will go and dig out my old GCSE economics text books in return.
At very least do a search on vortex ring and start reading. It was my understanding that finance is all about speculation.............aviation is based mainly around large servings of fact backed up by experience. Keep the speculation to the works canteen.
otbl
I would not begin to speculate on what caused the current position the Northern Rock building soc has found itself in because I know nothing of finance. Your ridiculous comments about vortex ring and passengers distracting the pilot sound to professional helicopter aviators like if I started making up reasons why NR are in the poo on a financial analyst discussion forum. I would not do it as it would result in my own ridicule......and I would certainly deserve it. Please please go and spend some (or a lot) of time reading about rotary wing aviation and I will go and dig out my old GCSE economics text books in return.
At very least do a search on vortex ring and start reading. It was my understanding that finance is all about speculation.............aviation is based mainly around large servings of fact backed up by experience. Keep the speculation to the works canteen.
otbl
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Capvermell
You have brought a small element of levity to what is otherwise a sad occurrence with the loss of someone respected by many.
This is, however, a Professional Pilots Rumour Network. Some of us with many years in the industry and many hours in command of helicopters (and we mostly know who we are here) choose to make speculative comment, some of which ends up being accurate and some which is not and can be ill informed, often acknowledged by the poster concerned.
This forum has a kind of "credibility scale" with generally a tacit respect among contributers when factored with their respective experience and location. We have our differences of opinion of course, but we generally agree to disagree like the professionals that we are.
The point is that it is quite possible for someone who is just starting out or even thinking about starting to post and be treated with respect and dignity as well as to garner a great deal of useful information.
Interestingly though, the Rotorheads Forum has a finely tuned Bullsh1t meter for those who have a flight simulator on their computer and become instant experts because they have heard a recording of an air traffic frequency while collecting registrations in a little book.
High BS meter readings are inversely proportional to credibility meter readings. Right now, you are in the danger zone on the BS meter while the credibility meter has not moved from the bottom scale.
Having read so many books, why don't you go and do a helicopter PPL. To me, you sound like a natural pilot so you should solo within a few hours. Read some more books, watch some more TV and you could do it in a couple of hours.
Maybe then, your comments will be taken seriously. Until then, you will remain the object of some hostility but mostly ridicule and mirth on this forum.
You have brought a small element of levity to what is otherwise a sad occurrence with the loss of someone respected by many.
This is, however, a Professional Pilots Rumour Network. Some of us with many years in the industry and many hours in command of helicopters (and we mostly know who we are here) choose to make speculative comment, some of which ends up being accurate and some which is not and can be ill informed, often acknowledged by the poster concerned.
This forum has a kind of "credibility scale" with generally a tacit respect among contributers when factored with their respective experience and location. We have our differences of opinion of course, but we generally agree to disagree like the professionals that we are.
The point is that it is quite possible for someone who is just starting out or even thinking about starting to post and be treated with respect and dignity as well as to garner a great deal of useful information.
Interestingly though, the Rotorheads Forum has a finely tuned Bullsh1t meter for those who have a flight simulator on their computer and become instant experts because they have heard a recording of an air traffic frequency while collecting registrations in a little book.
High BS meter readings are inversely proportional to credibility meter readings. Right now, you are in the danger zone on the BS meter while the credibility meter has not moved from the bottom scale.
Having read so many books, why don't you go and do a helicopter PPL. To me, you sound like a natural pilot so you should solo within a few hours. Read some more books, watch some more TV and you could do it in a couple of hours.
Maybe then, your comments will be taken seriously. Until then, you will remain the object of some hostility but mostly ridicule and mirth on this forum.
Avoid imitations
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After only 29 years since my qualification as a professional helicopter pilot, and not earning a penny in any other way since, I have found it better in all ways not to speculate in these matters.
The old maxim of "keeping one's mouth firmly shut and risking someone thinking you might be a fool, rather than opening it and removing all doubt" usually holds true.
The old maxim of "keeping one's mouth firmly shut and risking someone thinking you might be a fool, rather than opening it and removing all doubt" usually holds true.
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Capvermell
You say
If your command of English is an indication, you are an intelligent man or woman. What I find puzzling is that an apparently intelligent person could consider it possible to get to the bottom of what happened, or to form even a preliminary view, at a time when so few facts are known.
There is no information yet available (reliable or even unreliable) which might point to one cause as being more likely than another, or to a combination of causes.
When I read that you consider yourself to be "relatively informed" because of the books you've read and the television programmes you've watched about air accident investigation, I couldn't help but reflect upon the wisdom of what Alexander Pope wrote almost 300 years ago:
"A little learning is a dangerous thing;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring."
The majority of people who post in this forum are professional pilots from all over the world, many of whom can properly be described as experts. Some are well known in the helicopter industry worldwide; others less well known but no less expert. Some, to my knowledge, have experience in a professional capacity of air accident investigations. Does it not occur to you that the reason they have declined to become involved in your speculation is that they know enough to know it's a ridiculous thing to do - particularly when there is so little information available?
Interesting that you've experienced "objectionable and contemptuous attitudes" in other aviation forums. I don't want to speculate with such little information available, but have you considered the possibility that you might be the cause?
The hostility you've encountered in this thread is relatively rare on PPRuNe, particularly in Rotorheads where those with expertise and experience giving generously to those with little or none is such a well-established part of the forum ethos.
If your attitude in this thread is typical, I can't say I'm surprised others have been contemptuous elsewhere. Frankly, your posts have become increasingly like a child stamping its feet because it can't get its own way.
FL
PS. People are now beginning to laugh at you. Perhaps a good time to back off with dignity?
You say
I would like to try to get the bottom of how such a terrible accident could have befallen him
There is no information yet available (reliable or even unreliable) which might point to one cause as being more likely than another, or to a combination of causes.
When I read that you consider yourself to be "relatively informed" because of the books you've read and the television programmes you've watched about air accident investigation, I couldn't help but reflect upon the wisdom of what Alexander Pope wrote almost 300 years ago:
"A little learning is a dangerous thing;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring."
The majority of people who post in this forum are professional pilots from all over the world, many of whom can properly be described as experts. Some are well known in the helicopter industry worldwide; others less well known but no less expert. Some, to my knowledge, have experience in a professional capacity of air accident investigations. Does it not occur to you that the reason they have declined to become involved in your speculation is that they know enough to know it's a ridiculous thing to do - particularly when there is so little information available?
Interesting that you've experienced "objectionable and contemptuous attitudes" in other aviation forums. I don't want to speculate with such little information available, but have you considered the possibility that you might be the cause?
The hostility you've encountered in this thread is relatively rare on PPRuNe, particularly in Rotorheads where those with expertise and experience giving generously to those with little or none is such a well-established part of the forum ethos.
If your attitude in this thread is typical, I can't say I'm surprised others have been contemptuous elsewhere. Frankly, your posts have become increasingly like a child stamping its feet because it can't get its own way.
FL
PS. People are now beginning to laugh at you. Perhaps a good time to back off with dignity?
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 17th Sep 2007 at 23:57.
Moderator
Capvermell,
It would appear that you have firmly entrenched yourself on the wrong side of a lot of PPrune members. If that was your objective (and who can imagine why...) you have achieved it. Best now to change your name and start all over again, becasue it would appear that you'll not be forgotten here for a while!
I posted to another new PPrune member, in a whole other forum just the other day. The circumstances are a little different here, but you'll get the idea anyway. I'll paste in that post shortly...
When you've actually carried your dead pilot friend out of the aircraft he has just perrished in, you will probably tone down the nonsense of your own accord. Hopefully you will never have to do this, I wish I had not. Until then, perhaps the following post to another PPruner will inspire you to a more diplomatic approach to aviation in general, and members here....
(Oh, and disregard the reference to 35 hours flying time, I understand that the other member actually is a pilot!)
Here it is.......
You will probably get the most from this forum, and the genuine good well of it's participants if you respect that for many here aviation is a passion and often a career. After more than thirty years in aviation, the most important thing I have learned is that there will always be something else to learn, thus someone else to teach it. Aviators are eager to spread their passion far and wide, to those they consider worthy. After all, why waste one's time directing an effort to a person who will not appreciate it, or take it seriously? I do my very best to never antagonize anyone, as they might be a teacher now, or in the future. Kids I took flying 25 years ago, are now very experienced pilots, with a lot to teach me!
The same caution extends to commenting negatively on aircraft types. Each aircraft type, for better or not so much, has it's following. Why insult them? Those people probably have a wealth of knowledge as to how to get the most out of that type of aircraft. Why not rub those people the right way, and just ask for help?
One of the sayings includes a phrase that there are "no old bold pilots". I have met some young ones, and a few are still alive. How one approaches the people of aviation will say a lot about how you will approach aviation itself. If you want to endear yourself to those aviators who really have the wisdom you want, approach slowly, and with respect. Treat them as you would want them to see you treating their aircraft, should they allow you to fly it.
One PPrune member who was a new pilot on the other side of the world when she first communicated with me, has now had many hours of flying with me, and my support to be employed in an enviable project development job in aviation, with great opportunities, simply because she used the right approach. The only thing she ever knocked in her communication with me, were people who knocked her first.
35 hours is a great accomplishment, congratulations. Soon I'll have that in helicopters - I'm a newbie there for sure, I tread very lightly. However, my 5000+ hours in 120 fixed wing types (including C172's) make me nearly bold enough to suggest that you to ease into aviation, and spread out the experience, You'll enjoy it longer!
Today's free wisdom, for whatever it's worth,
Pilot DAR
It would appear that you have firmly entrenched yourself on the wrong side of a lot of PPrune members. If that was your objective (and who can imagine why...) you have achieved it. Best now to change your name and start all over again, becasue it would appear that you'll not be forgotten here for a while!
I posted to another new PPrune member, in a whole other forum just the other day. The circumstances are a little different here, but you'll get the idea anyway. I'll paste in that post shortly...
When you've actually carried your dead pilot friend out of the aircraft he has just perrished in, you will probably tone down the nonsense of your own accord. Hopefully you will never have to do this, I wish I had not. Until then, perhaps the following post to another PPruner will inspire you to a more diplomatic approach to aviation in general, and members here....
(Oh, and disregard the reference to 35 hours flying time, I understand that the other member actually is a pilot!)
Here it is.......
You will probably get the most from this forum, and the genuine good well of it's participants if you respect that for many here aviation is a passion and often a career. After more than thirty years in aviation, the most important thing I have learned is that there will always be something else to learn, thus someone else to teach it. Aviators are eager to spread their passion far and wide, to those they consider worthy. After all, why waste one's time directing an effort to a person who will not appreciate it, or take it seriously? I do my very best to never antagonize anyone, as they might be a teacher now, or in the future. Kids I took flying 25 years ago, are now very experienced pilots, with a lot to teach me!
The same caution extends to commenting negatively on aircraft types. Each aircraft type, for better or not so much, has it's following. Why insult them? Those people probably have a wealth of knowledge as to how to get the most out of that type of aircraft. Why not rub those people the right way, and just ask for help?
One of the sayings includes a phrase that there are "no old bold pilots". I have met some young ones, and a few are still alive. How one approaches the people of aviation will say a lot about how you will approach aviation itself. If you want to endear yourself to those aviators who really have the wisdom you want, approach slowly, and with respect. Treat them as you would want them to see you treating their aircraft, should they allow you to fly it.
One PPrune member who was a new pilot on the other side of the world when she first communicated with me, has now had many hours of flying with me, and my support to be employed in an enviable project development job in aviation, with great opportunities, simply because she used the right approach. The only thing she ever knocked in her communication with me, were people who knocked her first.
35 hours is a great accomplishment, congratulations. Soon I'll have that in helicopters - I'm a newbie there for sure, I tread very lightly. However, my 5000+ hours in 120 fixed wing types (including C172's) make me nearly bold enough to suggest that you to ease into aviation, and spread out the experience, You'll enjoy it longer!
Today's free wisdom, for whatever it's worth,
Pilot DAR
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Time to move on
I think the time is right to move on
Journalists think they know everything do they Or do they
NOP
Why do we all not wait and see what the AAIB publish and as I said before don't we all shut the hell up and think about some of the families and freind's in this difficult time's that are invovled in this tragic accident and to stop speculating about what has happend
At the end of the day Know one of us , Not one has any clue what had happend on Saturday and you don't know who will read this forum and lets just think about what we right in this forum
Their are innocent people invovled here and it is bad enough what the media right in the papers but just as bad when we write negative things in a forum.
The media are doing a job the same as you and I but I wish that they think about what they say and write and some things mentioned are so unacceptable, they don't care it is only a job to them.
Please lets get on with other things and let the Authorities do thier job
Best regards
Journalists think they know everything do they Or do they
NOP
Why do we all not wait and see what the AAIB publish and as I said before don't we all shut the hell up and think about some of the families and freind's in this difficult time's that are invovled in this tragic accident and to stop speculating about what has happend
At the end of the day Know one of us , Not one has any clue what had happend on Saturday and you don't know who will read this forum and lets just think about what we right in this forum
Their are innocent people invovled here and it is bad enough what the media right in the papers but just as bad when we write negative things in a forum.
The media are doing a job the same as you and I but I wish that they think about what they say and write and some things mentioned are so unacceptable, they don't care it is only a job to them.
Please lets get on with other things and let the Authorities do thier job
Best regards
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G
Unfortunately it is their job. Not nice but it sells the tabloids and sensationalism if the name of the game.
if you remember Lockerbie they said the reporters were there allowed to access the cordoned off area even after relatives where trying to get access to the site where their loved ones last moments were.
Very sad and to think a 5 year old was involved. They should show more respect.
TnT
I have had my own experiences delaing with the tabloids after a fatal helicopter accident (and the reporters that day, where nothing short of bloodthirsty, trying desperately to bend the conversation the way they wanted it)
if you remember Lockerbie they said the reporters were there allowed to access the cordoned off area even after relatives where trying to get access to the site where their loved ones last moments were.
Very sad and to think a 5 year old was involved. They should show more respect.
TnT
This was in yesterdays 'Independent' by the Arts correspondent no less:
The sad death of Colin McRae and his passengers led to the appearance of a phrase that has a paradoxical familiarity in such stories: "the Twin Squirrel helicopter has a good safety record". It's paradoxical because you generally only encounter it after a fatal crash. I'm sure it was used when Matthew Harding died in 1996 in the same helicopter and I know it was used when the businessman Phillip Carter died with his son in another Twin Squirrel. Which prompts one to ask, a good safety record compared with what exactly? Only, one presumes, other helicopters – a form of aircraft that defies gravity in an unnervingly overcomplicated way. Compared with not owning a helicopter at all you'd have to say it really doesn't look that great.
I sent an e-mail as follows:
Sir,
Tom Sutcliffe asks if the safety record of a particular type of helicopter is derived from comparison with other types of helicopter. Well yes actually it is. What else would you compare it with? Data such as accidents per million flying hours, would be typically used. Records over many years on both sides of the Atlantic show the AS355 to have an excellent record and thousands have been in use for over 25 years, worldwide, for Police and Air Ambulance operations. Mr Sutcliffe’s comments, based on 3 crashes involving high profile individuals over a 12 year period, are about as sensible as questioning the safety of all Mercedes Benz cars, because of the crash which killed Diana, Princess of Wales.
I look forward with interest to some forthcoming Arts reviews from your Aviation Correspondent..
Yours Sincerely
The reply:
Thanks for your note...Of course I understand that the safety record is by comparison with other helicopters...I was being rhetorical... My point was that such boasts are rather pointless when they ignore other ways of travelling -- and as you almost certainly know helicopters have a worse safety record than fixed wing aircraft...
I think our aviation correspondent may be a surprisingly cultured man by the way..
Best Wishes
Tom Sutcliffe
Can anyone point me to some data on comparative safety of Fixed wing v Helicopter? I seem to remember that the Jet Ranger was statistically the safest single engined aircraft, fixed wing or rotary.
Regards
The sad death of Colin McRae and his passengers led to the appearance of a phrase that has a paradoxical familiarity in such stories: "the Twin Squirrel helicopter has a good safety record". It's paradoxical because you generally only encounter it after a fatal crash. I'm sure it was used when Matthew Harding died in 1996 in the same helicopter and I know it was used when the businessman Phillip Carter died with his son in another Twin Squirrel. Which prompts one to ask, a good safety record compared with what exactly? Only, one presumes, other helicopters – a form of aircraft that defies gravity in an unnervingly overcomplicated way. Compared with not owning a helicopter at all you'd have to say it really doesn't look that great.
I sent an e-mail as follows:
Sir,
Tom Sutcliffe asks if the safety record of a particular type of helicopter is derived from comparison with other types of helicopter. Well yes actually it is. What else would you compare it with? Data such as accidents per million flying hours, would be typically used. Records over many years on both sides of the Atlantic show the AS355 to have an excellent record and thousands have been in use for over 25 years, worldwide, for Police and Air Ambulance operations. Mr Sutcliffe’s comments, based on 3 crashes involving high profile individuals over a 12 year period, are about as sensible as questioning the safety of all Mercedes Benz cars, because of the crash which killed Diana, Princess of Wales.
I look forward with interest to some forthcoming Arts reviews from your Aviation Correspondent..
Yours Sincerely
The reply:
Thanks for your note...Of course I understand that the safety record is by comparison with other helicopters...I was being rhetorical... My point was that such boasts are rather pointless when they ignore other ways of travelling -- and as you almost certainly know helicopters have a worse safety record than fixed wing aircraft...
I think our aviation correspondent may be a surprisingly cultured man by the way..
Best Wishes
Tom Sutcliffe
Can anyone point me to some data on comparative safety of Fixed wing v Helicopter? I seem to remember that the Jet Ranger was statistically the safest single engined aircraft, fixed wing or rotary.
Regards
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Slightly off topic, but I feel the 'celebrity' culture we are forced to live and breathe in has a lot to do with this ill informed witch hunt.
The fact that 49 people have lost their lives as a direct or indirect result of police pursuits in the first six months of the year should be a greater cause for concern than the independents witch hunt on the squirrell helicopter. Journalists
The fact that 49 people have lost their lives as a direct or indirect result of police pursuits in the first six months of the year should be a greater cause for concern than the independents witch hunt on the squirrell helicopter. Journalists
Keep in mind -
" Most people have a higher-than-average number of feet (it only takes a single man with one foot to bring the average below 2).
The 355 is probably the most popular light twin in the UK which would have nothing to do with it would it?
" Most people have a higher-than-average number of feet (it only takes a single man with one foot to bring the average below 2).
The 355 is probably the most popular light twin in the UK which would have nothing to do with it would it?
There are no limits
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But it does not matter a jot what you are flying if it transpires that the cause of the accident was CFIT. The Harding crash certainly was and Carter MAY have been the same. It remains to be seen what happened to McRae. 
Having made a brief study of statistics, they are there to prove whatever you will. Much has been made of the safety record of Robinsons and Jet Rangers, but when you count up how many there are and add in the fact that they are used frequently in high risk situations, the accident rate is quite low.
Perhaps its time for a period of reflection by pilots - what the hell are we doing consistently chucking perfectly serviceable aircraft into the ground?
Having made a brief study of statistics, they are there to prove whatever you will. Much has been made of the safety record of Robinsons and Jet Rangers, but when you count up how many there are and add in the fact that they are used frequently in high risk situations, the accident rate is quite low.
Perhaps its time for a period of reflection by pilots - what the hell are we doing consistently chucking perfectly serviceable aircraft into the ground?
tread carefully
>
Can anyone point me to some data on comparative safety of Fixed wing v Helicopter?
<
It’s a very lopsided comparison when it includes the FW attempts at heliport landings.
Can anyone point me to some data on comparative safety of Fixed wing v Helicopter?
<
It’s a very lopsided comparison when it includes the FW attempts at heliport landings.
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How can there be comparisons when the rotary aircraft are sometimes used to do things which are both impossible to achieve in fixed wings and more risky.
A fixed wing isn't going to do close-up reconnaissance of power lines, land frequently in unprepared areas or do air-rescue / HEMS.
You would have to incorporate the average level of operational risk per average 1,000,000 flying hours alongside the accident rate to truly compare the safety, and this is very subjective. This means you could assess every 1M hours as being X% corporate airfield-to-airfield, Y% as corporate with one or more ends being off-field, Z% HEMS, etc, attach a risk to each.
If rotary were 30% more accidents per hour flown on simple comparison than fixed wings, that may mean they are substantially safer than fixed-wing for the same risk-area of operation, field to field.
BW
A fixed wing isn't going to do close-up reconnaissance of power lines, land frequently in unprepared areas or do air-rescue / HEMS.
You would have to incorporate the average level of operational risk per average 1,000,000 flying hours alongside the accident rate to truly compare the safety, and this is very subjective. This means you could assess every 1M hours as being X% corporate airfield-to-airfield, Y% as corporate with one or more ends being off-field, Z% HEMS, etc, attach a risk to each.
If rotary were 30% more accidents per hour flown on simple comparison than fixed wings, that may mean they are substantially safer than fixed-wing for the same risk-area of operation, field to field.
BW
Avoid imitations
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Yes, it's more to do with what we are required to do with the aircraft, rather than the aircraft itself.
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Press reporting of all things aviatory
There have been numerous wailings and gnashing of teeth on this forum about the dramatising and mis-reporting of aviation details in the press.
I saw in the paper recently, an article reporting the crash in Phuket. In amongst all of the survivor reports and eye-witness accounts - in a box in the centre of the page was a sub-headline which was something like:
"MD-80, a troubled history"
Then followed three accounts of accidents involving MD-80's covering umpteen years. Nothing, of course to mention the hundreds of thousands of accident-free hours flown by the type during the same period.
What about the articles every time there's a fatal RTA, followed by a scathing history of the Vauxhall Nova, or some such vehicle with a "troubled history"?
If man had been meant to fly, why were we given the railway?
I saw in the paper recently, an article reporting the crash in Phuket. In amongst all of the survivor reports and eye-witness accounts - in a box in the centre of the page was a sub-headline which was something like:
"MD-80, a troubled history"
Then followed three accounts of accidents involving MD-80's covering umpteen years. Nothing, of course to mention the hundreds of thousands of accident-free hours flown by the type during the same period.
What about the articles every time there's a fatal RTA, followed by a scathing history of the Vauxhall Nova, or some such vehicle with a "troubled history"?
If man had been meant to fly, why were we given the railway?