McRae Crash & Fatal Accident Inquiry
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
Crab said it a while back;
The Military spend many hours ensuring that low flying is a graduated, briefed and well trained event so when surprises happen, there is still sufficient skill or mental capacity to safely change the outcome. It's exactly the "winning" attitude that is completely incompatible with professional and safe flying. Flying faster, lower and riskier each time will only win you one race, the one to the pine box.
He was a professional risk-taker, you can't drive at 120mph down country lanes and tracks safely and, whilst he was very good at it, those skills do not automatically transfer to helicopter flying. Very sad that he took 3 other people with him when he discovered the limits of his ability.
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Im lost
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And not just motorsport champions either, sometimes its people with a little excess money that go out and get their private license, buy a helicopter and away they go flying for the next 2 years (well at least where I'm from) without any further training or scrutiny.
Its quite amazing how many private helicopter owners that have bit the dirt from doing stupid things in these machines.
As a commercial pilot you are under the watchful eye from Ops managers, Chief Pilots, fellow company and non company pilots, engineers and of course the customers also and if you do something wrong you are told about it in some form or another.
Maybe its not the low flying rules that need addressing.
Its quite amazing how many private helicopter owners that have bit the dirt from doing stupid things in these machines.
As a commercial pilot you are under the watchful eye from Ops managers, Chief Pilots, fellow company and non company pilots, engineers and of course the customers also and if you do something wrong you are told about it in some form or another.
Maybe its not the low flying rules that need addressing.
Thread Starter
RotoNutz
How very true, we have quite a few of those in the UK and equally we have the inexperienced and perhaps cautious but ignorant (poor choice of words but I can't think of a better one) owners who come to grief because they don't really understand what they are doing.
I hold my hands up to being an inexperienced owner 10 years ago and getting away with some things I did in an R22 , because I knew no better, so I can see where some of these guys come to the end of their abilities.
I noticed looking through a photo gallery of a well attended annual helicopter event in the UK that for a period of years if you look back through the photos roughly one of the helicopters has been written off per year in the last few years. Hardly conclusive proof of anything but it peaked my interest, its got absolutely nothing to do with the event itself, but it attracts lots of owners in their own aircraft.
In some respects it comes back to my catchphrase from last year 'You don't know what you don't know'.
GS
How very true, we have quite a few of those in the UK and equally we have the inexperienced and perhaps cautious but ignorant (poor choice of words but I can't think of a better one) owners who come to grief because they don't really understand what they are doing.
I hold my hands up to being an inexperienced owner 10 years ago and getting away with some things I did in an R22 , because I knew no better, so I can see where some of these guys come to the end of their abilities.
I noticed looking through a photo gallery of a well attended annual helicopter event in the UK that for a period of years if you look back through the photos roughly one of the helicopters has been written off per year in the last few years. Hardly conclusive proof of anything but it peaked my interest, its got absolutely nothing to do with the event itself, but it attracts lots of owners in their own aircraft.
In some respects it comes back to my catchphrase from last year 'You don't know what you don't know'.
GS
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Center of the Universe
Posts: 645
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"if you don't know where the line is, you'll never know when you're getting close to it."
Zorba,
I am in general agreement with what you say, HOWEVER, it is not necesary for each individual pilot to learn where the line is from personal experience. Many others have been to the line before us and we can leverage their often costly lessons by watching and seeking understanding rather than starting from zero for ourselves.
Zorba,
I am in general agreement with what you say, HOWEVER, it is not necesary for each individual pilot to learn where the line is from personal experience. Many others have been to the line before us and we can leverage their often costly lessons by watching and seeking understanding rather than starting from zero for ourselves.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 291
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
EN48 - I would agree that there is no merit in starting from scratch, as far as learning limits goes.
Some of us were fortunate enough to learn from a pool of other, more experienced, pilots in our formative (big squadron) aviation years, where the melting pot provided different opinions & methods of achieving a similar result. That said, when an individual was deemed experienced enough to bring on other, less experienced, pilots, it did not stop many from subsequently exploring their own, and/or aircraft limits - and sadly, in some cases, coming to a sticky end.
My earlier post was just commenting that an element of risk taking & limit finding is very much in the nature of the pilot-beast - especially in a Military environment where knowing the limits of man & machine can mean the difference between life & death, in more ways than one. In the military, however, it's obviously accepted that there's an element of risk - one that should not be transferred into a civilian arena unless the only person likely to be affected is the solo pilot . . . which is not to condone it, just reduce the fallout if it goes wrong.
I should add that, like many, I have read the accident reports in detail for many years, in the hope that, if the chips are ever down, I might have learnt something from someone else's misfortune.
Some of us were fortunate enough to learn from a pool of other, more experienced, pilots in our formative (big squadron) aviation years, where the melting pot provided different opinions & methods of achieving a similar result. That said, when an individual was deemed experienced enough to bring on other, less experienced, pilots, it did not stop many from subsequently exploring their own, and/or aircraft limits - and sadly, in some cases, coming to a sticky end.
My earlier post was just commenting that an element of risk taking & limit finding is very much in the nature of the pilot-beast - especially in a Military environment where knowing the limits of man & machine can mean the difference between life & death, in more ways than one. In the military, however, it's obviously accepted that there's an element of risk - one that should not be transferred into a civilian arena unless the only person likely to be affected is the solo pilot . . . which is not to condone it, just reduce the fallout if it goes wrong.
I should add that, like many, I have read the accident reports in detail for many years, in the hope that, if the chips are ever down, I might have learnt something from someone else's misfortune.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: An ATC centre this side of the moon.
Posts: 1,160
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Colin McCrae Fatal Accident Inquiry
The FAI starts today in Lanak, it doesnt seem like 3 years since that fatefull day!!
Racing champ Colin McRae's helicopter crash inquiry begins | Glasgow and West | STV News
Racing champ Colin McRae's helicopter crash inquiry begins | Glasgow and West | STV News
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: on standby.....
Age: 38
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Second that Fis!
Am not however surprised that our journalist friends still get details wrong, even with the AAIB report in front of them. I flew that aircraft on a few occasions and never once did I notice the second engine...!
Am not however surprised that our journalist friends still get details wrong, even with the AAIB report in front of them. I flew that aircraft on a few occasions and never once did I notice the second engine...!
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 191
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why the inquiry? I think it's pretty obvious by the report what happened.
Air Accidents Investigation: Eurocopter AS350B2 Squirrel, G-CBHL
Paragraph four on page 101 of the PDF makes for some interesting reading. (130 kt IAS with a 60 degrees bank angle)
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/292...ndolences.html
Air Accidents Investigation: Eurocopter AS350B2 Squirrel, G-CBHL
Paragraph four on page 101 of the PDF makes for some interesting reading. (130 kt IAS with a 60 degrees bank angle)
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/292...ndolences.html
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 5,197
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
hands_on123
In England & Wales there would be an Inquest.
A Fatal Accident Inquiry is the Scottish equivalent.
Opinions differ about whether any useful purpose is actually served, but it's SOP.
Why the inquiry? I think it's pretty obvious by the report what happened.
A Fatal Accident Inquiry is the Scottish equivalent.
Opinions differ about whether any useful purpose is actually served, but it's SOP.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: UK
Age: 61
Posts: 159
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wind "probably" caused difficulties for a helicopter piloted by Colin McRae which crashed killing all on board, a fatal accident inquiry has heard.
But the witness told the court there was no sign of engine problems at the point when he saw the helicopter.
"The engine was fine," he told the inquiry.
He also told the court: "I do remember it was quite a windy day. I thought, the guy's probably having difficulty flying in that condition."
"The engine was fine," he told the inquiry.
He also told the court: "I do remember it was quite a windy day. I thought, the guy's probably having difficulty flying in that condition."
right... is tax payer money being spent on this?? sounds naive but hope not as it goes right to the core of why great britain plc is bankrupt. i thought the aaib report was perfectly sufficient.
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Croydon
Posts: 285
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
An AAIB investigation, conducted in private though publically reported, is to prevent future accidents, does not consider blame and only publishes edited output from interviews.
A coroner in England and Wales examines the circumstances of all deaths. While a hearing would not occur if someone died in their sleep for a clear medical condition it is naive to expect there not to be a hearing after multiple untimely fatalties.
Some posters should reflect if they would take a different line if their own 5 or 5 year old children had died a sudden an physically violent death.
A coroner in England and Wales examines the circumstances of all deaths. While a hearing would not occur if someone died in their sleep for a clear medical condition it is naive to expect there not to be a hearing after multiple untimely fatalties.
Some posters should reflect if they would take a different line if their own 5 or 5 year old children had died a sudden an physically violent death.
squibb your reference to the two deceased children adds clarity and personal context to the tragedy, and yes it was a naive comment.
but from what i digested from report over confident pilot exceeds the machines ability in the prevailing weather conditions and a tragedy ensues.
im just not sure i understand why disecting that should take months??
but from what i digested from report over confident pilot exceeds the machines ability in the prevailing weather conditions and a tragedy ensues.
im just not sure i understand why disecting that should take months??
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,044
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
An example of the separate inquries / reports... Let us say CM had survived, but the children had not. The AAIB process would have run as it did, but would not have addressed any possible legal liability, or even criminal proceedings, re CM. As it is, there still might be implications for his estate?
In short, the AAIB type process is far better for steering well clear of those areas. But a consequence is that those processes then need to run, and potentially without (?) being able to use/access the AAIB findings / evidence directly (?)
NoD
In short, the AAIB type process is far better for steering well clear of those areas. But a consequence is that those processes then need to run, and potentially without (?) being able to use/access the AAIB findings / evidence directly (?)
NoD
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 2,584
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
An awareness of "trends" in this case just might have prevented the accident had they been recognised in time and acted upon. The AAIB report is a dismal litany of indications that, once put together, give a clear indication that all was not well with CM's approach and attitude to his flying. How the instructors hid behind that pathetic excuse for not checking his licence is beyond me. Had it been checked properly and followed up then perhaps the subsequent brouhaha and further investigations might have changed the course of events.
Perhaps the inquiry will highlight such matters in a way that the AAIB cannot.
Perhaps the inquiry will highlight such matters in a way that the AAIB cannot.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Euroville
Posts: 455
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
An awareness of "trends" in this case just might have prevented the accident had they been recognised in time and acted upon.
I was a huge fan of the man when behind the wheel of a rally car, and it pains me to say it but he was a prat behind the controls of an aircraft.
I remember seeing an interview he did on one of the satellite channels and he took the reporter up for a joyride including flying down a narow forrest track/Fire break below tree top level and at high speed and performing a torque turn at quite a low level. I couldn't believe that he allowed himself to be filmed doing all this. He obviously had a total disregard for any and all of the rules of flying and wasn't worried about the CAA catching up with him.
That he was almost certainly doing the same as the above with his young child, someone elses much loved child and another adult on board and took them all with him on the way out just makes his lack of maturity, judgement and responsibility even more hard to accept. Throwing more taxpayers money after the probably millions spent by the AAIB is a scandalous waste of money.
Last edited by Telstar; 15th Jan 2011 at 16:37.
BBC News Link
Inquiry told rally star McRae flew helicopter illegally
Rally driver Colin McRae should not have been flying the helicopter in which he and three passengers died, a fatal accident inquiry has been told.
The Civil Aviation Authority's Raymond Elgy told the hearing that Mr McRae was neither licensed nor qualified to fly the Squirrel helicopter.
The 39-year-old crashed in woodland near Lanark in September 2007.
He died along with his son Johnny, five, Ben Porcelli, six, and family friend Graeme Duncan, 37.
The group had been returning to the landing strip at the McRae family's home in Lanark after a short trip to a friend's farm.
An Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) report issued in February 2009 stated that Mr McRae's five-year flying licence had expired in February 2005.
He was also not authorised to fly the helicopter he was operating because his "valid type rating" had lapsed in March 2007.
The fatal accident inquiry, at Lanark Sheriff Court, is ongoing.
Rally driver Colin McRae should not have been flying the helicopter in which he and three passengers died, a fatal accident inquiry has been told.
The Civil Aviation Authority's Raymond Elgy told the hearing that Mr McRae was neither licensed nor qualified to fly the Squirrel helicopter.
The 39-year-old crashed in woodland near Lanark in September 2007.
He died along with his son Johnny, five, Ben Porcelli, six, and family friend Graeme Duncan, 37.
The group had been returning to the landing strip at the McRae family's home in Lanark after a short trip to a friend's farm.
An Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) report issued in February 2009 stated that Mr McRae's five-year flying licence had expired in February 2005.
He was also not authorised to fly the helicopter he was operating because his "valid type rating" had lapsed in March 2007.
The fatal accident inquiry, at Lanark Sheriff Court, is ongoing.