Age Discrimination: Fighting the CAA! (+ update)
Just got the Governments reply to the petition:
"The age limit on single pilot operations implements the requirement of the Convention on International Civil Aviation. These requirements are based on internationally agreed medical standards. We believe that it is justified based on the available medical evidence."
Thought the age was set at 65 in ICAO?
FNW
"The age limit on single pilot operations implements the requirement of the Convention on International Civil Aviation. These requirements are based on internationally agreed medical standards. We believe that it is justified based on the available medical evidence."
Thought the age was set at 65 in ICAO?
FNW
The Veloceraptor of Lounge Lizards
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F***ing W***ers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The man who stole your old age pension is now determined to stop you working an extra five years to help put right some of the damage he has done since 1997.
C***!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
VH (Blood pressure now too high to fly for the rest of the day)
Get in there Ian and give them a good legal kicking
The man who stole your old age pension is now determined to stop you working an extra five years to help put right some of the damage he has done since 1997.
C***!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
VH (Blood pressure now too high to fly for the rest of the day)
Get in there Ian and give them a good legal kicking
Tightgit
Further to the above. I think this is the relevant part of the ICAO amendment (167 to annexe 1)
The bold type section is the area where our authority could have cut us all a little slack! However, in a typical example of 'joined up thinking', They tell us we'll have to work longer to pay for our pensions whilst depriving us of the major means to do it!
2.1.10.1 A Contracting State, having issued pilot licences, shall not permit the holders thereof to act as pilot-in-command of an aircraft engaged in international commercial international air transport operations if the licence holders have
attained their 60th birthday or, in the case of operations with more than one pilot where the other pilot is
younger than 60 years of age, their 65th birthday.
2.1.10.2 Recommendation.— A Contracting State, having issued pilot licences, should not permit the holders thereof to act as co-pilot of an aircraft engaged in international commercial air transport operations if the licence holders have attained their 65th birthday.
Note. Attention is drawn to paragraph 1.2.5.2.6 on the validity period of medical assessments for
pilots over the age of 60 who are engaged in commercial air transport operations.
. . .
attained their 60th birthday or, in the case of operations with more than one pilot where the other pilot is
younger than 60 years of age, their 65th birthday.
2.1.10.2 Recommendation.— A Contracting State, having issued pilot licences, should not permit the holders thereof to act as co-pilot of an aircraft engaged in international commercial air transport operations if the licence holders have attained their 65th birthday.
Note. Attention is drawn to paragraph 1.2.5.2.6 on the validity period of medical assessments for
pilots over the age of 60 who are engaged in commercial air transport operations.
. . .
This case is undoubtedly going to be a battle of the expert opinion.
Bear in mind that the "10 Downing St" reply is based on information received from the CAA - or "the defendant". Now read Ian's pre-hearing report above.
It becomes immediately apparent that the CAA defence will rely entirely upon "expert" medical opinion.
They have a small army of Profs, Specialists, Consultants who all accept part-time consultancies in exchange for having their bank accounts massaged with CAA (your) money. They use consultants from some of the leading hospitals.
Most of these same people would not agree that the age of a 60 or 65 yrs old pilot is in any way directly relevant to their medical condition.
One of the current aviation medical problem areas is actually with young(er) pilots working on long haul - and they are TOO fit to fly. Fit distance runners = enlarged heart + long haul = early death.
Ian - you will need your experts lined up. Suggest you start by approaching some of the ones on the CAA list. Friendly fire can win these cases.
Bear in mind that the "10 Downing St" reply is based on information received from the CAA - or "the defendant". Now read Ian's pre-hearing report above.
It becomes immediately apparent that the CAA defence will rely entirely upon "expert" medical opinion.
They have a small army of Profs, Specialists, Consultants who all accept part-time consultancies in exchange for having their bank accounts massaged with CAA (your) money. They use consultants from some of the leading hospitals.
Most of these same people would not agree that the age of a 60 or 65 yrs old pilot is in any way directly relevant to their medical condition.
One of the current aviation medical problem areas is actually with young(er) pilots working on long haul - and they are TOO fit to fly. Fit distance runners = enlarged heart + long haul = early death.
Ian - you will need your experts lined up. Suggest you start by approaching some of the ones on the CAA list. Friendly fire can win these cases.
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I'll be bringing expert witnesses myself. I have a very emminent cardiologist on the medical side but if there's any one else out there who can point me at further supportive medical opinion or the way aviation law is interpreted in other ICAO states I'd be most grateful.
We all know, for example, that the CAA has different rules to the FAA regarding the operation of non-scheduled aircraft (clearly the category most of us work in) yet claims to seek a level playing field on the age issue. Anyone who has a good knowledge of the way other nations treat our type of commercial operation and aerial work would be most helpful.
Incidentally, I note the ICAO ruling makes specific mention of "International Operations". That I am seeking to fly within the UK may strengthen our case.
We all know, for example, that the CAA has different rules to the FAA regarding the operation of non-scheduled aircraft (clearly the category most of us work in) yet claims to seek a level playing field on the age issue. Anyone who has a good knowledge of the way other nations treat our type of commercial operation and aerial work would be most helpful.
Incidentally, I note the ICAO ruling makes specific mention of "International Operations". That I am seeking to fly within the UK may strengthen our case.
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Age Concern
Hallo Ian,
First ... just to 'up' my pledge to £500 alongside the others.
In the mid 1970s, my business (Spooner Aviation) trained Doctor, (now Professor) Ralph Mc Creadey at Shoreham Airport, where he still flies the C150he bought from us in 1974. Ralph is now recognised as a worldwide authority on nuclear medicine and travels to other countries on his lecture circuit.
I'll approach him for his views on our situation and willingness to help.
PS ... Good to see many of you at HeliTech ... don't knock my LOOP and 'Blades' efforts too hard lads. I'm doing my best ... now at 75!
Dennis Kenyon.
First ... just to 'up' my pledge to £500 alongside the others.
In the mid 1970s, my business (Spooner Aviation) trained Doctor, (now Professor) Ralph Mc Creadey at Shoreham Airport, where he still flies the C150he bought from us in 1974. Ralph is now recognised as a worldwide authority on nuclear medicine and travels to other countries on his lecture circuit.
I'll approach him for his views on our situation and willingness to help.
PS ... Good to see many of you at HeliTech ... don't knock my LOOP and 'Blades' efforts too hard lads. I'm doing my best ... now at 75!
Dennis Kenyon.
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Thank you Dennis.
As one of the best respected members of our fraternity (which should include the girls omong us) your support is most welcome.
Sorry to saqy I missed your display, indeed the whole of Helitech for the first time in many years, I'm sure it was as brilliant as ever.
Ian
As one of the best respected members of our fraternity (which should include the girls omong us) your support is most welcome.
Sorry to saqy I missed your display, indeed the whole of Helitech for the first time in many years, I'm sure it was as brilliant as ever.
Ian
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Ian,
Have you talked to Doc Ian Perry. If you do not already know him, he is a well respected AME who has international credibility and does not accept the bureaucrats impositions lightly. Given your joint backgrounds, I suspect you do know him.
HN
Have you talked to Doc Ian Perry. If you do not already know him, he is a well respected AME who has international credibility and does not accept the bureaucrats impositions lightly. Given your joint backgrounds, I suspect you do know him.
HN
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Hi Ian!
Don't live in the same country as you but the CAA is an important pair of shins to give a good kicking to and a successful outcome against that particular Goliath will almost certainly have much wider implications.
You've £250 of mine to add to Whirly's little book for now, maybe more later! PM me when you need it or an a/c no to where it should be sent now.
Good hunting!!
Don't live in the same country as you but the CAA is an important pair of shins to give a good kicking to and a successful outcome against that particular Goliath will almost certainly have much wider implications.
You've £250 of mine to add to Whirly's little book for now, maybe more later! PM me when you need it or an a/c no to where it should be sent now.
Good hunting!!
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Helinut,
Ian Perry was the senior Spec Av Med at Wallop in '73 when I was there. I do, indeed, know him well.
Well respected as he is I am not sure he would convince the Court that he knows any more than the CAA's employed Doctors. Indeed, the CAA's own Doctors agree with me! The Authority's arguement is that "international concensus" is that we all are at much higher risk of a Cardiac Event post 60. I will argue that "international consensus" is not sound medical opinion and I will bring non-aviation medical experts to express that view.
Having said that, I'm sure Ian is aware of my action and I would be very happy to have his support in Court if my lawyers agree. His position at BHAB, who are understandably reluctant to show me overt support, makes it difficult for me to contact him though. Should he wish to contact me, of course, that would be another matter.
Ian Evans
Ian Perry was the senior Spec Av Med at Wallop in '73 when I was there. I do, indeed, know him well.
Well respected as he is I am not sure he would convince the Court that he knows any more than the CAA's employed Doctors. Indeed, the CAA's own Doctors agree with me! The Authority's arguement is that "international concensus" is that we all are at much higher risk of a Cardiac Event post 60. I will argue that "international consensus" is not sound medical opinion and I will bring non-aviation medical experts to express that view.
Having said that, I'm sure Ian is aware of my action and I would be very happy to have his support in Court if my lawyers agree. His position at BHAB, who are understandably reluctant to show me overt support, makes it difficult for me to contact him though. Should he wish to contact me, of course, that would be another matter.
Ian Evans
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Uncle Ian,
I spoke to Dr Perry about this very subject at my last medical and he was very supportive. He had just returned from JAR conference where he had strongly argued for the limit to be raised to 65. He said that it was other medical representatives from JAR countries who refused to consider it.
He also said that he would be very happy to offer medical expertise for free.
Great guy. Worth a call.
Cheers
I spoke to Dr Perry about this very subject at my last medical and he was very supportive. He had just returned from JAR conference where he had strongly argued for the limit to be raised to 65. He said that it was other medical representatives from JAR countries who refused to consider it.
He also said that he would be very happy to offer medical expertise for free.
Great guy. Worth a call.
Cheers
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It seems to me that this issue should be/will be decided on the basis of statistical evidence, concerning, mainly, heart problems. (And I know the saying, “there are lies etc……..”). I would guess that the expert witnesses that the CAA will call, will be arguing their case on this basis, as will the witnesses that Ian may use.
There must be a point that, statistically, sudden incapacitation occurs more often over a certain age. There are, of course, many factors governing this issue, regardless of age, but at some point, statistically, there will be an age when above average rates of incapacitation will occur – and this figure should be used as a basis for argument. Whether these statistics should be restricted to pilots is an additional question, but I would guess that the general population is probably a better yardstick, if only because there will be a much greater source of information. And if you argue stress levels are different, I would say it’s the younger pilots who are mostly affected - as they learn from experience!
There must be a point that, statistically, sudden incapacitation occurs more often over a certain age. There are, of course, many factors governing this issue, regardless of age, but at some point, statistically, there will be an age when above average rates of incapacitation will occur – and this figure should be used as a basis for argument. Whether these statistics should be restricted to pilots is an additional question, but I would guess that the general population is probably a better yardstick, if only because there will be a much greater source of information. And if you argue stress levels are different, I would say it’s the younger pilots who are mostly affected - as they learn from experience!
2 million in damages...
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=297934
See above thread for fixed wing pilot age discrimination case going to court in Nov, anything to be learnt from this case that is relevant to Ians case?
Mickjoebill
See above thread for fixed wing pilot age discrimination case going to court in Nov, anything to be learnt from this case that is relevant to Ians case?
Mickjoebill
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OAP's in flying !
Hallo Ian ... Am following the thread and note your call for possible press publicity.
You may know I write for Loop Publishing (LOOP) and its new 'all helicopter' brother ... the quarterly 'BLADES.' Copy number one appeared at Duxford earlier this month.
I'll be happy to raise the issue on request ... (subject to Editor approval.) I think I can obtain most of the facts from this thread, but please advise if you feel the LOOP publication would benefit the action and any particular items/areas you'd like highlighted.
Also to re-affirm my donation when required. Just need a bank 'sort code' and the usual account no.
Great to see the pprune support, particularly from the youger guys.
Dennis K.
You may know I write for Loop Publishing (LOOP) and its new 'all helicopter' brother ... the quarterly 'BLADES.' Copy number one appeared at Duxford earlier this month.
I'll be happy to raise the issue on request ... (subject to Editor approval.) I think I can obtain most of the facts from this thread, but please advise if you feel the LOOP publication would benefit the action and any particular items/areas you'd like highlighted.
Also to re-affirm my donation when required. Just need a bank 'sort code' and the usual account no.
Great to see the pprune support, particularly from the youger guys.
Dennis K.
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Dennis, currently no bank account has been set up yet. At the moment, all Ian is doing is asking for pledges so that, if need be, he knows he has the financial support of fellow pilots. In this regard, I have agreed to act as his 2IC (and signatory) so that pledgors can have some faith that we're not adding to the Bahamas Fund! 
Cheers
Whirls
Cheers
Whirls
Chief Bottle Washer
Ian,
This announcement from the FAA yesterday:
This announcement from the FAA yesterday:
FAA welcomes new US law allowing commercial pilots to fly until age 65
The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) welcomes the legislation signed into law last night by the President that allows U.S. commercial pilots to fly until age 65. The determined efforts of Congress have averted a lengthy federal rulemaking process while enabling some of our nation’s most experienced pilots to keep flying.
Effective last night, the Fair Treatment for Experienced Pilots Act allows both pilots on a domestic flight to be up to age 65. For international flights, one pilot may be up to age 65 provided the other pilot is under age 60, consistent with the November 2006 International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) standard.
While the law is not retroactive, airlines do have the option to rehire pilots who are under age 65. The rehiring of pilots is not mandatory and is the decision of each airline.
In January, the FAA announced that it would raise the retirement age for commercial pilots to 65. The mandatory federal rulemaking process would have taken 18 months to two years. The FAA took a renewed look at its longstanding rule in September 2006 with the help of aviation industry and medical experts who provided the agency with valuable insight and analysis. The “Age 60 Rule” had been in effect since 1959.
The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) welcomes the legislation signed into law last night by the President that allows U.S. commercial pilots to fly until age 65. The determined efforts of Congress have averted a lengthy federal rulemaking process while enabling some of our nation’s most experienced pilots to keep flying.
Effective last night, the Fair Treatment for Experienced Pilots Act allows both pilots on a domestic flight to be up to age 65. For international flights, one pilot may be up to age 65 provided the other pilot is under age 60, consistent with the November 2006 International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) standard.
While the law is not retroactive, airlines do have the option to rehire pilots who are under age 65. The rehiring of pilots is not mandatory and is the decision of each airline.
In January, the FAA announced that it would raise the retirement age for commercial pilots to 65. The mandatory federal rulemaking process would have taken 18 months to two years. The FAA took a renewed look at its longstanding rule in September 2006 with the help of aviation industry and medical experts who provided the agency with valuable insight and analysis. The “Age 60 Rule” had been in effect since 1959.
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Very interesting to see the US has moved a step beyond Europe in allowing both crew members to be over 60.
Of course this is of little help in the single pilot arguement as the "risk" is 1000 times greater according to the CAA. What they fail to mention in their evidence is that Part 135 operations in the States (the stuff we do) has no pilot age limit.
I am ploughing through CAA witness statements at the moment which come with 550 separate documents occupying 17 lever arch files! It's a farce.
I will be looking for some money in the new year so all those who have pledged can expect a call (or a message here, or both with details). I was rather naive about the costs involved and I will be asking for a little more from anyone who thinks they can justify it.........I've had several pledges of £500 two of £1000 and lots of £200. As it stands I would realise about £8500 if everyone honours their pledge. To date I have outlayed £6000 and can expect a minimum of another £15000. I hate to ask but it I really do need it.
Ian Evans
Of course this is of little help in the single pilot arguement as the "risk" is 1000 times greater according to the CAA. What they fail to mention in their evidence is that Part 135 operations in the States (the stuff we do) has no pilot age limit.
I am ploughing through CAA witness statements at the moment which come with 550 separate documents occupying 17 lever arch files! It's a farce.
I will be looking for some money in the new year so all those who have pledged can expect a call (or a message here, or both with details). I was rather naive about the costs involved and I will be asking for a little more from anyone who thinks they can justify it.........I've had several pledges of £500 two of £1000 and lots of £200. As it stands I would realise about £8500 if everyone honours their pledge. To date I have outlayed £6000 and can expect a minimum of another £15000. I hate to ask but it I really do need it.
Ian Evans