Civilian Helicopter down in Iraq
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It's weird, but I just can't imagine the Islamic Insurgents who are aparently causing all the violence and bloodshed in Iraq all coming home and blogging away at their PC's over the philosophy of war, foreign policy and the rights and wrongs of the politics that led them to that place in their lives whenever they lose a bunch of their freedom fighters to an allied airstrike or an ambush.
I guess that's just another one of the differences between them and us in the west.
I guess that's just another one of the differences between them and us in the west.
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Letter From Downed Pilot's Brother
Dan Laguna, Brother of Art Laguna Tells Story of Blackwater Crash
01/25/2007 2:18 PM ET
"First of all my brother is and was a HERO. All he ever wanted to do from the time I can remember as a child, was he wanted to fly. He became one of the most professional pilots you could have ever known. I recruited my brother to join us with Blackwater Aviation. We get a lot of resumes but only a few have the qualifications to join us. This is one of the most demanding jobs in Iraq. The military flies some every day but we in Blackwater Aviation are up flying in the RED zone every day all day.
To get to your question of what happened, I got a call that we had some of our Blackwater PSD teams in contact and needed help. We are the QRF (Quick Reaction Force) for just about everyone. The military takes too long to respond because of the approval they have to get all the way up the chain of command. I am the only one that makes the decision to go or not and we always go when someone is in harm's way. I sent out two helicopters to help our team in contact. After they were on station for a very short time they began to receive automatic fire. One of my door gunners was shot immediately in the head. Both helicopters flew back to the Green zone to get him to the hospital.
I was monitoring the radio and knew we had at lest one wounded. I got my crew together and and my brother's crew then went back out to help our PSD team. When we arrived at their location which only took about three minutes, we started to receive heavy volumes of automatic fire from all around..
My brother was my wing man at that point and as we took evasive maneuvers I heard him they were taking rounds. By the time I got turned around to see him he was gone.
As I continued to look for his helicopter we were also shot down. I was able to land the helicopter in a small courtyard. I shut down the helicopter to assess the damage and to make sure my crew was ok. My crew was fine and the helicopter was shot up pretty bad but was able to fly the three to five minutes back to the Green zone.
I needed to get my crew out of that area because it would have been only a few minutes before the insurgents would have gotten to us. After I got back to our area I had the mechanics put on three more rotor blades and went back out to find my brother and his crew. It only took them about ten to fifteen minutes to get me airborne again. I was back up looking for my brother and was able to get the military to help with search.
It took about twenty minutes to locate the helicopter. It had been shot down in a small ally which made it very difficult to locate. By the time we found the helicopter two of the bodies were dragged out and into the street. The Army and our PSD team got there just in time before they could do anything with them.
I landed at that location so I could make sure they were my guys. When I unzipped the second body bag that the Army had already put them in, I found my brother.
I was told by the ground guys that they would get them all back to the Green zone. I walked back to my running helicopter, jumped in and flew back to the Green Zone. I then realized I had to make a very difficult call to my brother's wife. I did everything I could to let her know he did not suffer and how very sorry that I was. Later that night I was asked to go to the hospital to ID my guys. Latter at the hospital the US Ambassador showed up to talk with me.
I am only telling you this story because I don't believe the media really tells the public about these heroes and I wonder if civilians really believe in what we are doing over here. I know we are doing the right thing in helping the Iraqi people and wish everyone could understand that.
May God bless the men and woman here and their families.
— Dan Laguna,
Blackwater Aviation Program Manager,
Baghdad, Iraq
Dan Laguna, Brother of Art Laguna Tells Story of Blackwater Crash
01/25/2007 2:18 PM ET
"First of all my brother is and was a HERO. All he ever wanted to do from the time I can remember as a child, was he wanted to fly. He became one of the most professional pilots you could have ever known. I recruited my brother to join us with Blackwater Aviation. We get a lot of resumes but only a few have the qualifications to join us. This is one of the most demanding jobs in Iraq. The military flies some every day but we in Blackwater Aviation are up flying in the RED zone every day all day.
To get to your question of what happened, I got a call that we had some of our Blackwater PSD teams in contact and needed help. We are the QRF (Quick Reaction Force) for just about everyone. The military takes too long to respond because of the approval they have to get all the way up the chain of command. I am the only one that makes the decision to go or not and we always go when someone is in harm's way. I sent out two helicopters to help our team in contact. After they were on station for a very short time they began to receive automatic fire. One of my door gunners was shot immediately in the head. Both helicopters flew back to the Green zone to get him to the hospital.
I was monitoring the radio and knew we had at lest one wounded. I got my crew together and and my brother's crew then went back out to help our PSD team. When we arrived at their location which only took about three minutes, we started to receive heavy volumes of automatic fire from all around..
My brother was my wing man at that point and as we took evasive maneuvers I heard him they were taking rounds. By the time I got turned around to see him he was gone.
As I continued to look for his helicopter we were also shot down. I was able to land the helicopter in a small courtyard. I shut down the helicopter to assess the damage and to make sure my crew was ok. My crew was fine and the helicopter was shot up pretty bad but was able to fly the three to five minutes back to the Green zone.
I needed to get my crew out of that area because it would have been only a few minutes before the insurgents would have gotten to us. After I got back to our area I had the mechanics put on three more rotor blades and went back out to find my brother and his crew. It only took them about ten to fifteen minutes to get me airborne again. I was back up looking for my brother and was able to get the military to help with search.
It took about twenty minutes to locate the helicopter. It had been shot down in a small ally which made it very difficult to locate. By the time we found the helicopter two of the bodies were dragged out and into the street. The Army and our PSD team got there just in time before they could do anything with them.
I landed at that location so I could make sure they were my guys. When I unzipped the second body bag that the Army had already put them in, I found my brother.
I was told by the ground guys that they would get them all back to the Green zone. I walked back to my running helicopter, jumped in and flew back to the Green Zone. I then realized I had to make a very difficult call to my brother's wife. I did everything I could to let her know he did not suffer and how very sorry that I was. Later that night I was asked to go to the hospital to ID my guys. Latter at the hospital the US Ambassador showed up to talk with me.
I am only telling you this story because I don't believe the media really tells the public about these heroes and I wonder if civilians really believe in what we are doing over here. I know we are doing the right thing in helping the Iraqi people and wish everyone could understand that.
May God bless the men and woman here and their families.
— Dan Laguna,
Blackwater Aviation Program Manager,
Baghdad, Iraq
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Dave Blevins
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flungdung referred to "Iraqi civilians trying to live a normal life, but for whom each day is a question of survival."
Your reference to the 'populace' is unfair to ordinary Iraqis who, like us, just want to get on living their normal lives. They are caught up in a battle not of their making. Those struggling to survive day by day are the lucky ones; the unlucky ones have already been killed.
Your reference to the 'populace' is unfair to ordinary Iraqis who, like us, just want to get on living their normal lives. They are caught up in a battle not of their making. Those struggling to survive day by day are the lucky ones; the unlucky ones have already been killed.
I have a hard time considering a populace that strings dead aviators from a bridge and crowing about it as "real heroes".
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It is very very hard to wake up and realize that your country is considered by some to be the Bad Guys. Doubly so if you have the Milk of Human kindness flowing in your veins, injected there by the supreme ignorance of counties and cultures borne by the Bush administration, where Al Queda, Weapons of Mass Destruction and the War on Terror created this mindless confusion of cause and effect that stirred a million rednecks to fly 6 foot flags from their Chevy Trucks as we proudly sailed into a country that had nothing to do with it. I am reminded of the scene from "Robo Cop" where the super-robot draws its weapon and tells the executive to "drop his weapon or he will be killed" and the poor sod screams "What weapon?" as he is mowed down in the board room.
Would I string up a dead Iraqi on a bridge if Iraqis had killed my mother and brother by "mistake" or with an armed helicopter flown by a guy who got paid 250,000 dollars for it, and who made YouTube videos of the thrills he got?
Is it a real stretch to think that some Iraqis hate us because we attacked their country, tore down every system that fed, housed, powered and treated them medically? Did each one of the 100,000 to 600,000 of the Iraqis who died (number uncertain because we didn't bother to count them) create 10 each who hate us?
And now we hear the same drum beat about Iran, the same words and the same broad-brush view of geopolitics. I feel a cold draft at my feet.
I used to shudder to think we had given the Red Launch Button to that ignorant idiot, but in horror, I now realize - He is us.
Would I string up a dead Iraqi on a bridge if Iraqis had killed my mother and brother by "mistake" or with an armed helicopter flown by a guy who got paid 250,000 dollars for it, and who made YouTube videos of the thrills he got?
Is it a real stretch to think that some Iraqis hate us because we attacked their country, tore down every system that fed, housed, powered and treated them medically? Did each one of the 100,000 to 600,000 of the Iraqis who died (number uncertain because we didn't bother to count them) create 10 each who hate us?
And now we hear the same drum beat about Iran, the same words and the same broad-brush view of geopolitics. I feel a cold draft at my feet.
I used to shudder to think we had given the Red Launch Button to that ignorant idiot, but in horror, I now realize - He is us.
Last edited by rjsquirrel; 29th Jan 2007 at 10:08.
The people who did this are dipicable humans but I would venture to give the benifit of the doubt to the vast majority of people in that devastated country, that they are good people just trying to survive. Put them in a society that has known peace and democracy that we have been privelaged with and you just may be surprised. I find it very sad that so called civilised people are willing to condem a whole nation for the few really bad apples.
Some of them, misguided maybe, genuinely believe they are trying to defend their country no doubt. I can assure you if some northern neighbour tried to invade us they may control the country through numbers but would still suffer the same fate as our troops suffer in Iraq from those willing to continue the fight behind the lines.
To condem Iragis for some of these acts is like condeming all Americans for the actions of a few for 'Columbine' or Tim McVey or any number of the dregs that inhabit any nation. I'm sure I do not have to worry about my daughter visiting Canada, being fed to pigs as per the case there at the momment.
If a little more respect was given to the inhabitants of Iraq, from our side before and after the invasion and destruction, I would be confident in saying we would not be in the mess we are at the momment. This comment is not aimed at the troops on the ground but more at the leadership who set the culture and standards of behaviour.
Thread Starter
The Iraqi people sure are losing in this war. Why did you not see videos of 12,000,000 purple fingers proudly held up to the cameras....the bloody cheek of them to do so. Why, everyone knows that was a sham....and in furtherance of the sham they danced in the streets. To make it worse....they voted three times just to fool us into believing freedom and being able to select their own leaders was something they wanted.
Just like in Afghanistan, who do the women think they are fooling with this going to school, working outside the home, and the like. Kid's flying kites just to fool the rest of the world how much they hate living without the Taliban.
Well...time for a cup of coffee, I smell it brewing in the kitchen. Perhaps some of ya'll might try that too.
Just like in Afghanistan, who do the women think they are fooling with this going to school, working outside the home, and the like. Kid's flying kites just to fool the rest of the world how much they hate living without the Taliban.
Well...time for a cup of coffee, I smell it brewing in the kitchen. Perhaps some of ya'll might try that too.
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SASless,
Surely we all feel that the votes were historic and important, and won with the blood of US soldiers. The problem is they seem to be proving to be impotent, with the failure of the civil system to achieve stability. This failure could also be part of the US intervention, cast when Rumsfeld disbanded all civil and military authority and replaced it with nothing, for years.
The symbolic gesture of that purple finger raised tears in my eyes, and hope as well. But the other image I have in my mind is the sensless looting of all national buildings, including the museums, while US soldiers (under orders to do so) stood by. We were witnesses to the chaos we caused, and then celebrated.
Any study of WWII shows the stunning statescraft of MacArthur, who held the Emperor in place in Japan, so he could give orders supporting the US occupation, and thus legitimize it. Patton employed former Nazis to run the show while Germany was settling down. How does this compare with the firing of the Baath Party members (the only political game in town) and the complete disbanding of the Army (which freed millions of trained young men to form the insurgency).
The failure to actually build the nation, fueled by the ignorance of the civilians who took over for the US Military in Iraq, is stunning, and as usual, the soldiers are now paying the price.
As an example of how to do it right, here is the order Hirohito gave (as dictated to him by MacArthur):
"Hirohito, By the Grace of Heaven, Emperor of Japan, seated on the Throne occupied by the same Dynasty changeless through ages eternal, To all whom these presents shall come, Greeting:
We do hereby authorize Lieutenant-General Torashiro Kawabe, Zyusii, Second Class of the Imperial Order of the Sacred Treasure, to make, on behalf of Ourselves, any arrangements directed by the Supreme Commander for Allied Powers, as stated in the second clause of the message of the Government of the United States of America which was conveyed to our Government through the Government of Switzerland on August sixteenth of this year. Given at Our Palace in Tokyo, this eighteenth day of the eight month of the twentieth year of Syowa, being the two thjousand six hundred and fifth year from the Accession of the Emperor Zinmu."
Surely we all feel that the votes were historic and important, and won with the blood of US soldiers. The problem is they seem to be proving to be impotent, with the failure of the civil system to achieve stability. This failure could also be part of the US intervention, cast when Rumsfeld disbanded all civil and military authority and replaced it with nothing, for years.
The symbolic gesture of that purple finger raised tears in my eyes, and hope as well. But the other image I have in my mind is the sensless looting of all national buildings, including the museums, while US soldiers (under orders to do so) stood by. We were witnesses to the chaos we caused, and then celebrated.
Any study of WWII shows the stunning statescraft of MacArthur, who held the Emperor in place in Japan, so he could give orders supporting the US occupation, and thus legitimize it. Patton employed former Nazis to run the show while Germany was settling down. How does this compare with the firing of the Baath Party members (the only political game in town) and the complete disbanding of the Army (which freed millions of trained young men to form the insurgency).
The failure to actually build the nation, fueled by the ignorance of the civilians who took over for the US Military in Iraq, is stunning, and as usual, the soldiers are now paying the price.
As an example of how to do it right, here is the order Hirohito gave (as dictated to him by MacArthur):
"Hirohito, By the Grace of Heaven, Emperor of Japan, seated on the Throne occupied by the same Dynasty changeless through ages eternal, To all whom these presents shall come, Greeting:
We do hereby authorize Lieutenant-General Torashiro Kawabe, Zyusii, Second Class of the Imperial Order of the Sacred Treasure, to make, on behalf of Ourselves, any arrangements directed by the Supreme Commander for Allied Powers, as stated in the second clause of the message of the Government of the United States of America which was conveyed to our Government through the Government of Switzerland on August sixteenth of this year. Given at Our Palace in Tokyo, this eighteenth day of the eight month of the twentieth year of Syowa, being the two thjousand six hundred and fifth year from the Accession of the Emperor Zinmu."
Gatvol
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Beyond Hirohito the wonderful, Ghengis Kahn, Eisenhowers Surrender etc etc. and back to Iraq.
There is plenty of blame to go around in regards to this mess. Some of what I thought was happening appears to be coming out. Failure of us to be downright mean and nasty.
Heres a couple quotes from a friend who knows a bit first hand.
" Helps explain some of the "foreign fighters" now fighting in Iraq.
Out of the 2500 interrogations our team conducted, approx. 50-100 (probably a low estimate) of them were of Iranians or ex-Iraqi's who had been captured in the 1980-1988 war, then sent to camps and brain washed for several years and then sent back to Iraq to spy. There was more than 20,000 of these guys who spent years in camps being re- indoctrinated. When the war started, Iran sent these guys back to Iraq, and are sending them by the droves now, to stir up trouble and apply the special skills they learned to kill American soldiers. We tried, mostly in vain, to convince the upper crust this was happening but seemed nobody wanted to believe it or deal with it, because in doing so, we would piss the Shia off and nobody wanted to do that.
I believe that had we dealt with it sooner, and very sternly, we would not be in the mess we are seeing now from Irans' involvement. At least we could have been taking steps to counter their effort and realize what they were up too. Their plan as I was told, was to tie down as many American troops as possible for as long as possible, to give the old boys in Iran time to melt a little Uranium and plan for the mushroom cloud. Now Bush says to kill or capture them, well I have always supported "
"The brazen assault, 50 miles south of Baghdad on Jan. 20, was conducted by nine to 12 militants posing as an American security team. They traveled in black GMC Suburban vehicles — the type used by U.S. government convoys — had American weapons, wore new U.S. military combat fatigues, and spoke English.
In a written statement, the U.S. command reported at the time that five soldiers were killed while "repelling the attack." Now, two senior U.S. military officials as well as Iraqi officials say four of the five were captured and taken from the governor's compound alive. Three of them were found dead and one mortally wounded later that evening in locations as far as 25 miles east of the governor's office.
The U.S. officials said they could not be sure where the soldiers were shot after being captured at the compound. Iraqi officials said they believe the men were killed just before the Suburbans were abandoned.
The commando team also took an unclassified U.S. computer with them as its members fled with the four soldiers and left behind an American M-4 automatic rifle, senior U.S. military officials said."
" Just heard from xxxxxxxxx that one reason that convoy of bad guys got through the guardpost to abduct the Americans was that the English-speaking driver(?) was a blonde-haired guy. xxxxxxxx thinks this sounds like the Chechnyans. I've heard of them operating in Afghan but not Iraq.
"
Latest is that it was probably Iranian Spec OPs working directly under the Top Iranian Cleric. It appears a General and a Colonel were captured with Al Sadr or his boys and released to Iran by the Iraqis. Squeezeing these guys would have some serious credence to irans involvement. This is only rumor on this one, But I know the source.
Point of this is we are getting beat at our own game. Snuffy Sp4 out there has a limited mission and severly limited information. It appears so far he has not been put on notice that someone possibly trained in the U.S. and looks like him may be out there to kill or capture him.
Heres another note about something that always plagues the rear echelon troops.
"The slimy bastard I was referring to in our earlier email would be Iran in this case...You are absolutely right, rear echolon troops have gotten sloppy and lazy. I was in a chow hall one day and when i got through eating, i walked out and was immeadiately shot at by several insurgents who had gotten past the guards and some how got to within a 100 meters or so of us. I ran back in and over the roar inside of all the troops talking, screamed that there was ragheads shooting and coming towards the chow hall. Most of the troops inside were truck drivers and non infantry types, as they ran out of the chow hall the insurgents cut loose on them and as i stood there to see what happen, I actually saw 90% of all troops there run away from the fight, and most were retreating as fast as they could get away. Even the chief warrant officer i was eating with ask why i was not running to get away, i told him to give me his weapon so i could fight back, believe it or not, he said he didn't bring any ammo with him, and he ran and jumped in the humvee and he and his driver hauled ass and left me there..AS God would have it, a group of Marines just happen to be driving into the parking lot saw what was happening, and engaged the bad guys and killed all seven of them with the army not firing a shot. "
So Blame Bush all you want, but now all the generals who have added stars ought to get off their asses and shape up some of these folks, reminding them that if they want to get lazy they will die.
I get off on tangents so often I dont know if this is an eye opener. Its not more than I expected..
Sasless keep Nick on your good side I can use a free Beer.
There is plenty of blame to go around in regards to this mess. Some of what I thought was happening appears to be coming out. Failure of us to be downright mean and nasty.
Heres a couple quotes from a friend who knows a bit first hand.
" Helps explain some of the "foreign fighters" now fighting in Iraq.
Out of the 2500 interrogations our team conducted, approx. 50-100 (probably a low estimate) of them were of Iranians or ex-Iraqi's who had been captured in the 1980-1988 war, then sent to camps and brain washed for several years and then sent back to Iraq to spy. There was more than 20,000 of these guys who spent years in camps being re- indoctrinated. When the war started, Iran sent these guys back to Iraq, and are sending them by the droves now, to stir up trouble and apply the special skills they learned to kill American soldiers. We tried, mostly in vain, to convince the upper crust this was happening but seemed nobody wanted to believe it or deal with it, because in doing so, we would piss the Shia off and nobody wanted to do that.
I believe that had we dealt with it sooner, and very sternly, we would not be in the mess we are seeing now from Irans' involvement. At least we could have been taking steps to counter their effort and realize what they were up too. Their plan as I was told, was to tie down as many American troops as possible for as long as possible, to give the old boys in Iran time to melt a little Uranium and plan for the mushroom cloud. Now Bush says to kill or capture them, well I have always supported "
"The brazen assault, 50 miles south of Baghdad on Jan. 20, was conducted by nine to 12 militants posing as an American security team. They traveled in black GMC Suburban vehicles — the type used by U.S. government convoys — had American weapons, wore new U.S. military combat fatigues, and spoke English.
In a written statement, the U.S. command reported at the time that five soldiers were killed while "repelling the attack." Now, two senior U.S. military officials as well as Iraqi officials say four of the five were captured and taken from the governor's compound alive. Three of them were found dead and one mortally wounded later that evening in locations as far as 25 miles east of the governor's office.
The U.S. officials said they could not be sure where the soldiers were shot after being captured at the compound. Iraqi officials said they believe the men were killed just before the Suburbans were abandoned.
The commando team also took an unclassified U.S. computer with them as its members fled with the four soldiers and left behind an American M-4 automatic rifle, senior U.S. military officials said."
" Just heard from xxxxxxxxx that one reason that convoy of bad guys got through the guardpost to abduct the Americans was that the English-speaking driver(?) was a blonde-haired guy. xxxxxxxx thinks this sounds like the Chechnyans. I've heard of them operating in Afghan but not Iraq.
"
Latest is that it was probably Iranian Spec OPs working directly under the Top Iranian Cleric. It appears a General and a Colonel were captured with Al Sadr or his boys and released to Iran by the Iraqis. Squeezeing these guys would have some serious credence to irans involvement. This is only rumor on this one, But I know the source.
Point of this is we are getting beat at our own game. Snuffy Sp4 out there has a limited mission and severly limited information. It appears so far he has not been put on notice that someone possibly trained in the U.S. and looks like him may be out there to kill or capture him.
Heres another note about something that always plagues the rear echelon troops.
"The slimy bastard I was referring to in our earlier email would be Iran in this case...You are absolutely right, rear echolon troops have gotten sloppy and lazy. I was in a chow hall one day and when i got through eating, i walked out and was immeadiately shot at by several insurgents who had gotten past the guards and some how got to within a 100 meters or so of us. I ran back in and over the roar inside of all the troops talking, screamed that there was ragheads shooting and coming towards the chow hall. Most of the troops inside were truck drivers and non infantry types, as they ran out of the chow hall the insurgents cut loose on them and as i stood there to see what happen, I actually saw 90% of all troops there run away from the fight, and most were retreating as fast as they could get away. Even the chief warrant officer i was eating with ask why i was not running to get away, i told him to give me his weapon so i could fight back, believe it or not, he said he didn't bring any ammo with him, and he ran and jumped in the humvee and he and his driver hauled ass and left me there..AS God would have it, a group of Marines just happen to be driving into the parking lot saw what was happening, and engaged the bad guys and killed all seven of them with the army not firing a shot. "
So Blame Bush all you want, but now all the generals who have added stars ought to get off their asses and shape up some of these folks, reminding them that if they want to get lazy they will die.
I get off on tangents so often I dont know if this is an eye opener. Its not more than I expected..
Sasless keep Nick on your good side I can use a free Beer.
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BSousa,
You missed the entire point of your long long post. Those vehicles were ones we gave to the "good guys" and I will bet the killers were the "good guys" we are helping. We trained and equipped the "terrorists" because they are all pretty much against us.
You can invent mythical chechnians, but those vehicles (like all the others reported when Iraquis are kidnapped and killed) and the weapons, explosives and uniforms your boy Bush gave to them.
Unless you still think CNN did it.....
You missed the entire point of your long long post. Those vehicles were ones we gave to the "good guys" and I will bet the killers were the "good guys" we are helping. We trained and equipped the "terrorists" because they are all pretty much against us.
You can invent mythical chechnians, but those vehicles (like all the others reported when Iraquis are kidnapped and killed) and the weapons, explosives and uniforms your boy Bush gave to them.
Unless you still think CNN did it.....
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All good points Maxter - food for thought. (Although I confess to not understanding the thing about Canada and pigs... Guess I missed something in the news.)
Dave Blevins
Dave Blevins
The people who did this are dipicable humans but I would venture to give the benifit of the doubt to the vast majority of people in that devastated country, that they are good people just trying to survive. Put them in a society that has known peace and democracy that we have been privelaged with and you just may be surprised. I find it very sad that so called civilised people are willing to condem a whole nation for the few really bad apples.
Some of them, misguided maybe, genuinely believe they are trying to defend their country no doubt. I can assure you if some northern neighbour tried to invade us they may control the country through numbers but would still suffer the same fate as our troops suffer in Iraq from those willing to continue the fight behind the lines.
To condem Iragis for some of these acts is like condeming all Americans for the actions of a few for 'Columbine' or Tim McVey or any number of the dregs that inhabit any nation. I'm sure I do not have to worry about my daughter visiting Canada, being fed to pigs as per the case there at the momment.
If a little more respect was given to the inhabitants of Iraq, from our side before and after the invasion and destruction, I would be confident in saying we would not be in the mess we are at the momment. This comment is not aimed at the troops on the ground but more at the leadership who set the culture and standards of behaviour.
Some of them, misguided maybe, genuinely believe they are trying to defend their country no doubt. I can assure you if some northern neighbour tried to invade us they may control the country through numbers but would still suffer the same fate as our troops suffer in Iraq from those willing to continue the fight behind the lines.
To condem Iragis for some of these acts is like condeming all Americans for the actions of a few for 'Columbine' or Tim McVey or any number of the dregs that inhabit any nation. I'm sure I do not have to worry about my daughter visiting Canada, being fed to pigs as per the case there at the momment.
If a little more respect was given to the inhabitants of Iraq, from our side before and after the invasion and destruction, I would be confident in saying we would not be in the mess we are at the momment. This comment is not aimed at the troops on the ground but more at the leadership who set the culture and standards of behaviour.
Gatvol
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"Those vehicles were ones we gave to the "good guys" and I will bet the killers were the "good guys" we are helping"
OK Nick , We are getting closer together on this one. I think your right in that we dont really know WHO is on our side there and the Good/Bad Guys are hard to ID. As to having first hand knowledge on the equipment, I dont have it.
Im am more able not to blame "The Bushter" alone but all the Politicians who have made this mess just that. In a military action I want our generals to earn those stars by getting in the trenches vs. a sat phone from the McDill O Club..
I hear too many folks saying "well yes while I was on the ground." BS from what I have seen while they were on the ground you couldnt get close enouth to them to get a picture.
Either way, if you think Nancy Pelosi and her crew is going to do better doing anything other than packing things up and backstepping, I think your mistaken.
Right now I dont even know if thats the wrong thing to do. Unless we get serious over there, she may be right.
OK Nick , We are getting closer together on this one. I think your right in that we dont really know WHO is on our side there and the Good/Bad Guys are hard to ID. As to having first hand knowledge on the equipment, I dont have it.
Im am more able not to blame "The Bushter" alone but all the Politicians who have made this mess just that. In a military action I want our generals to earn those stars by getting in the trenches vs. a sat phone from the McDill O Club..
I hear too many folks saying "well yes while I was on the ground." BS from what I have seen while they were on the ground you couldnt get close enouth to them to get a picture.
Either way, if you think Nancy Pelosi and her crew is going to do better doing anything other than packing things up and backstepping, I think your mistaken.
Right now I dont even know if thats the wrong thing to do. Unless we get serious over there, she may be right.
Thread Starter
Nick,
Not to confuse the issue but it was not Rumsfeld who made that decision but rather a former State Department guy by name of Paul Breamer. Breamer replaced Garner with a brief to take strict control of the occupation.
Without consulting the military, and in consultation with Wolfowitz, he made the decision to dissolve the Iraqi military afterthe military government under Garner had promised to pay the Iraqi military and as feasible, use them to flesh out units to assist the US Military.
Not only did he order the termination of serving military but also terminated pensions for retired personnel.
President Bush, before the war started, approved the retention of Iraqi's in the military, police, and government. Garner arrived after the combat action was complete and ran the interim government until replaced by Breamer.
The intelligence prior to the war suggested entire units of the Iraqi Army would either change sides or remain in their barracks. That did not happen. It would appear the Iraqi military were more loyal to the country than to Saddam. When the Iraqi military dispersed to avoid being destroyed by the coalition forces, they took weapons, equipment and ammunition home with them.
Had those same folks have been called back to form units under temporary US Control with a clear understanding that upon weeding out the Baathist senior leadership and Saddam's supporters, US forces would leave, then maybe we could have avoided what is going on now.
The Sixty Four Dollar question is just how did that decision come about and who approved it? Ultimately it lands on the desk of George Bush but it had to be approved on the way up or it would have not happened.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...nguage=printer
Not to confuse the issue but it was not Rumsfeld who made that decision but rather a former State Department guy by name of Paul Breamer. Breamer replaced Garner with a brief to take strict control of the occupation.
Without consulting the military, and in consultation with Wolfowitz, he made the decision to dissolve the Iraqi military afterthe military government under Garner had promised to pay the Iraqi military and as feasible, use them to flesh out units to assist the US Military.
Not only did he order the termination of serving military but also terminated pensions for retired personnel.
President Bush, before the war started, approved the retention of Iraqi's in the military, police, and government. Garner arrived after the combat action was complete and ran the interim government until replaced by Breamer.
The intelligence prior to the war suggested entire units of the Iraqi Army would either change sides or remain in their barracks. That did not happen. It would appear the Iraqi military were more loyal to the country than to Saddam. When the Iraqi military dispersed to avoid being destroyed by the coalition forces, they took weapons, equipment and ammunition home with them.
Had those same folks have been called back to form units under temporary US Control with a clear understanding that upon weeding out the Baathist senior leadership and Saddam's supporters, US forces would leave, then maybe we could have avoided what is going on now.
The Sixty Four Dollar question is just how did that decision come about and who approved it? Ultimately it lands on the desk of George Bush but it had to be approved on the way up or it would have not happened.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...nguage=printer
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Well Bert and Sasless, looks like we are getting closer. A beer call is in order.
Let me separate us again!
I believe the facts are:
1) There are few terrorists (in the Al Queda kind) in Iraq, we are stuck in the middle of a civil war for ultimate power between religious/tribal factions.
2) The war on terror is going on elsewhere, we are too busy cleaning up Bush's mess to actually fight it. Afghanistan and the Taliban are front and center, but not in Bush's eyes.
3) We will not "win" in Iraq, there is no such thing. It is like putting a frog in a blender, and then putting it back together again, hoping it will hop. The best we can do is walk away from the mess, watch it sort itself out, and hope that they don't hate us forever.
4) Iran needs attention, but not the Bush/Rice kind. If we send military in, we will get even more stuck, and it will not be any prettier. Diplomacy will work, if we knew any diplomats.
Let me separate us again!
I believe the facts are:
1) There are few terrorists (in the Al Queda kind) in Iraq, we are stuck in the middle of a civil war for ultimate power between religious/tribal factions.
2) The war on terror is going on elsewhere, we are too busy cleaning up Bush's mess to actually fight it. Afghanistan and the Taliban are front and center, but not in Bush's eyes.
3) We will not "win" in Iraq, there is no such thing. It is like putting a frog in a blender, and then putting it back together again, hoping it will hop. The best we can do is walk away from the mess, watch it sort itself out, and hope that they don't hate us forever.
4) Iran needs attention, but not the Bush/Rice kind. If we send military in, we will get even more stuck, and it will not be any prettier. Diplomacy will work, if we knew any diplomats.
Gatvol
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1) OK
2) OK
3) OK
4) OK
But Im afraid Dancing Nancy and the Hlliary team will do nothing more than open the floodgates here in the states. Quite frankly see nobody in the future with Cojones.
Personally and I think I have said it before, I dont see why we even have even one troop off the Contiguos shoreline.
We can fly a UAV in Afghannieland from Nellis AFB, we should certainly be able to take out bad guy(s) from Ft Bragg.
I do almost anything for a free Beer or a Sikorsky Pin..
2) OK
3) OK
4) OK
But Im afraid Dancing Nancy and the Hlliary team will do nothing more than open the floodgates here in the states. Quite frankly see nobody in the future with Cojones.
Personally and I think I have said it before, I dont see why we even have even one troop off the Contiguos shoreline.
We can fly a UAV in Afghannieland from Nellis AFB, we should certainly be able to take out bad guy(s) from Ft Bragg.
I do almost anything for a free Beer or a Sikorsky Pin..