Civilian Helicopter down in Iraq
Thread Starter
Civilian Helicopter down in Iraq
Blackwater Aviation appears to have lost an aircraft with five persons aboard. Intial reports are all five killed. No other details yet.
I assume it is a Bell 412 although they are opeating MD-500's there.
I assume it is a Bell 412 although they are opeating MD-500's there.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Five dead in Iraq chopper crash
From correspondents in Washington
January 24, 2007 07:41am
Article from: Agence France-Presse
Font size: + -
Send this article: Print Email
A HELICOPTER owned by the US security firm Blackwater USA crashed in Baghdad today, killing five people, a US defence official said.
"A quick reaction force and Blackwater employees went to the crash scene and found the remains of five people," said the official, who asked not to be identified.
The identity or nationality of the five was not immediately known, nor was the cause of the crash.
The MH-6 helicopter crashed about 7.30pm AEDT yesterday in Baghdad's Rusafa districts, the official said.
It came after 13 US troops were killed in the crash of a UH-60 Black Hawk helicopter on Saturday, north-east of Baghdad, which officials believe may have been shot down with a shoulder-fired surface to air missile.
From correspondents in Washington
January 24, 2007 07:41am
Article from: Agence France-Presse
Font size: + -
Send this article: Print Email
A HELICOPTER owned by the US security firm Blackwater USA crashed in Baghdad today, killing five people, a US defence official said.
"A quick reaction force and Blackwater employees went to the crash scene and found the remains of five people," said the official, who asked not to be identified.
The identity or nationality of the five was not immediately known, nor was the cause of the crash.
The MH-6 helicopter crashed about 7.30pm AEDT yesterday in Baghdad's Rusafa districts, the official said.
It came after 13 US troops were killed in the crash of a UH-60 Black Hawk helicopter on Saturday, north-east of Baghdad, which officials believe may have been shot down with a shoulder-fired surface to air missile.
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: USA
Age: 75
Posts: 3,012
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WG13, forgive the black humor. No dirsrespect intended, just stating the facts.
Those fellows fly a tough mission, they get paid a bunch, and have their eyes wide open as they do. And they'd be the first to understand why "civilian" is the wrong word, as well as to understand the risks they take.
Here is a pair of tapes blackwater pilots have made - note that they call themselves Commandos, and that the second tape is the helo dropping off Blackwater snipers on a roof top, where they engage enemy targets:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VF2NvPMSrTg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZDcT...elated&search=
Those fellows fly a tough mission, they get paid a bunch, and have their eyes wide open as they do. And they'd be the first to understand why "civilian" is the wrong word, as well as to understand the risks they take.
Here is a pair of tapes blackwater pilots have made - note that they call themselves Commandos, and that the second tape is the helo dropping off Blackwater snipers on a roof top, where they engage enemy targets:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VF2NvPMSrTg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZDcT...elated&search=
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: In my house
Posts: 320
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nick
I appreciate the black humor, thanks
Every time there is any sort of accident reported on PPrune the bandwidth is taken up with messages of condolence and RIP type posts, often from people completely unconnected with the event. I myself (cynical bast..d) find them a bit superfluous and almost a case of posting for the sake of it.
There are some exceptions but it seems a bit over the top to me on many occasions. I am not saying that all accidents resulting in loss of life are not a tragedy but do we raelly have to post public condolences in many cases for people not directly or in some cases not remotely known to us? I think that the posting of such can be trite and in many cases is best left unsaid.
I appreciate the black humor, thanks
Every time there is any sort of accident reported on PPrune the bandwidth is taken up with messages of condolence and RIP type posts, often from people completely unconnected with the event. I myself (cynical bast..d) find them a bit superfluous and almost a case of posting for the sake of it.
There are some exceptions but it seems a bit over the top to me on many occasions. I am not saying that all accidents resulting in loss of life are not a tragedy but do we raelly have to post public condolences in many cases for people not directly or in some cases not remotely known to us? I think that the posting of such can be trite and in many cases is best left unsaid.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 116
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aye, what Hippolite said.
Dave Blevins
Dave Blevins
Nick
I appreciate the black humor, thanks
Every time there is any sort of accident reported on PPrune the bandwidth is taken up with messages of condolence and RIP type posts, often from people completely unconnected with the event. I myself (cynical bast..d) find them a bit superfluous and almost a case of posting for the sake of it.
There are some exceptions but it seems a bit over the top to me on many occasions. I am not saying that all accidents resulting in loss of life are not a tragedy but do we raelly have to post public condolences in many cases for people not directly or in some cases not remotely known to us? I think that the posting of such can be trite and in many cases is best left unsaid.
I appreciate the black humor, thanks
Every time there is any sort of accident reported on PPrune the bandwidth is taken up with messages of condolence and RIP type posts, often from people completely unconnected with the event. I myself (cynical bast..d) find them a bit superfluous and almost a case of posting for the sake of it.
There are some exceptions but it seems a bit over the top to me on many occasions. I am not saying that all accidents resulting in loss of life are not a tragedy but do we raelly have to post public condolences in many cases for people not directly or in some cases not remotely known to us? I think that the posting of such can be trite and in many cases is best left unsaid.
Thread Starter
Aye Lads....they knew the risks...they volunteered...and except for enough NVG time....I might have been one of them. That does not mean they will not be missed or they do not have loved ones that will mourn their passing.
They were doing their bit in this fight against terrorism we have going on....seems they were at the cutting edge of things. Those folks have earned a reputation of going to the assistance of friendly troops in need of help in the past. I know of one occasion where they flew into a very nasty place and dropped ammunition to folks that really, really needed it....and then hauled out some wounded.
A bit of banter is fine but let's remember what it is all about. Blackwater has lost 20+ people in Iraq. This ain't an offshore contract someplace.
They were doing their bit in this fight against terrorism we have going on....seems they were at the cutting edge of things. Those folks have earned a reputation of going to the assistance of friendly troops in need of help in the past. I know of one occasion where they flew into a very nasty place and dropped ammunition to folks that really, really needed it....and then hauled out some wounded.
A bit of banter is fine but let's remember what it is all about. Blackwater has lost 20+ people in Iraq. This ain't an offshore contract someplace.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Not here
Posts: 174
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Curious that In the second video in the first few seconds you see a 530 hovering in space on the edge of the building when there is lots of room to land bit more forward more out of sight....just wondering if any miltary guys out there could answer the reasoning behind it ??
cheers SL
cheers SL
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: land of the long cold front
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dummy
You must really be a dummy #13
those guys were mercenaries , and while its sad they died, fake condolences are not called for !
All these feelings for people you had no idea even existed show a need in you .
those guys were mercenaries , and while its sad they died, fake condolences are not called for !
All these feelings for people you had no idea even existed show a need in you .
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: USA
Age: 75
Posts: 3,012
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Beyond shedding tears, I could ask this question, "Exactly how legal is it for paid mercenaries to be flying armed helicopters or let off on rooftops to kill people? Where is the chain of command, and what is international law in that respect?"
I could ask the same questions of people who are paid to go to Italy, walk down the street and then put a sandbag over someone's head, and then kidnap them to Turkey for some fun and games in a secret prison.
For our international ppruners, I am not the only American who asks these questions, and not the only one who votes on what I know in my heart to be the shocking answers.
I could ask the same questions of people who are paid to go to Italy, walk down the street and then put a sandbag over someone's head, and then kidnap them to Turkey for some fun and games in a secret prison.
For our international ppruners, I am not the only American who asks these questions, and not the only one who votes on what I know in my heart to be the shocking answers.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Scotland
Age: 72
Posts: 169
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi All,
i'm just curious who's baby "Blackwater" is. I never heard something about them before the George W Bush era. And how legal is this operation. Or is just someone playing "King of the world" and makes his own rules. And if, all the best wishes for my US Friends for 2008 elections. Things can only become better.
I know the saying with the glass house and throwing stones. Germany also had better times
.
Always happy landings
spencer17
i'm just curious who's baby "Blackwater" is. I never heard something about them before the George W Bush era. And how legal is this operation. Or is just someone playing "King of the world" and makes his own rules. And if, all the best wishes for my US Friends for 2008 elections. Things can only become better.
I know the saying with the glass house and throwing stones. Germany also had better times
.Always happy landings
spencer17
Wikipedia entry for Blackwater:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackwater_USA
I'll let others speculate as to the actual backers and intentions of Blackwater ops...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackwater_USA
I'll let others speculate as to the actual backers and intentions of Blackwater ops...
Whether or not these guys were mercs, they were still human-beings. Respect costs nothing, and I have a feeling WG13 is as aware of their existence as SASLess, Nick and most other mil aviators, and we don't do fake condolences for our brethren.
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 52
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
private military contractors
Just curious, and not sure this is the appropriate forum to ask this question on or not, but who would take out contracts for companies like Blackwater? Are they employed by the US government, or private US companies with interests in Iraq? If they are employed by private companies, how much co-operation with the military would be involved?
This American sleeps better at night (figuratively and literally) knowing that organizations like Blackwater exist and operate, and that my government has the backbone to employee them.
My condolences to those that perished and regards to the familes involved.
My condolences to those that perished and regards to the familes involved.
Thread Starter
If one does a bit Google searching....one can find out all sorts of things about Blackwater the company, contracts, training programs, and aviation assets. If one is really good....one can subscribe to their weekly news letter. For you English folks out there....it is free (google and the newsletter).
From Yahoo...
From Yahoo...
4 Americans in Iraq crash shot in head
By QASSIM ABDUL-ZAHRA, Associated Press Writer 32 minutes ago
Four of the five Americans killed when a U.S. security company's helicopter crashed in a dangerous Sunni neighborhood in central Baghdad were shot execution style in the back the head, Iraqi and U.S. officials said Wednesday.
A senior Iraqi military official said a machine gunner downed the helicopter, but a U.S. military official in Washington said there were no indications that the aircraft, owned by Blackwater USA, had been shot out of the sky. Two Sunni insurgent groups, separately, claimed responsibility for the crash.
In Washington, a U.S. defense official said four of the five killed were shot in the back of the head but did not know whether they were still alive when they were shot. The defense official spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak on the record.
The helicopter was shot down after responding to assist a U.S. Embassy ground convoy that came under fire in a Sunni neighborhood in central Baghdad, said a U.S. diplomatic official in Washington.
A second helicopter also was struck, but there were no casualties among its crew, said the diplomatic official, who spoke anonymously because he was not authorized to make statements.
The doomed helicopter swooped into electrical wires before the crash. U.S. officials said it was not clear if gunfire brought the aircraft down or caused its pilot to veer into the wires during evasive manuevers.
The Iraqi official, who also declined to be identified because details had not been made public, said the four were shot in the back of the head while they were on the ground. The crash occurred in an old neighborhood of narrow streets on the east bank of the Tigris River, north of the central city.
In separate fighting Wednesday, U.S. and Iraqi troops battled gunmen firing heavy weapons from concrete high-rises in another Sunni insurgent stronghold, on the west bank of the Tigris north of the heavily fortified Green Zone. Iraq's defense minister said as many as 30 militants were killed and 27 captured.
Apache attack helicopters buzzed past the tall buildings and radio towers along Haifa Street, while several Humvees drove on the tree-lined street below. Gunfire rang in the background as shells fell, according to AP Television News footage.
The U.S. military said the targeted raids were intended to clear the area of militants, dubbing the operation dubbed Tomahawk Strike 11. The clashes were the second major fighting to break out in the area in less than a month.
In the aftermath of Tuesday's Blackwater helicopter crash, U.S. forces were planning to blow up the wreckage to prevent people from scavenging equipment, the Iraqi official said.
Blackwater USA confirmed that five Americans employed by the North Carolina-based company as security professionals were killed, but provided no identities or other details.
On Wednesday, U.S. Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad offered condolences for the five Americans killed.
"We lost five fine men," Khalilzad told reporters during a round-table discussion at the embassy in the heavily fortified Green Zone in Baghdad.
He said he had traveled with the men who were killed and had gone to the morgue to view the bodies, but offered no further details beyond saying that it was difficult to determine what happened because of "the fog of war."
Another American official in Baghdad, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said three Blackwater helicopters were involved. One had landed for an unknown reason and one of the Blackwater employees was shot at that point, he said.
That helicopter apparently was able to take off but a second one then crashed in the same area, he added without explaining the involvement of the third helicopter.
The Qatar-based Al-Jazeera television said the 1920 Revolution Brigades insurgent group claimed responsibility for shooting down the helicopter and showed a video taken by a cell phone of a mass of still-smoldering twisted metal that it was said was the wreckage of the chopper.
Another Sunni insurgent group, the Ansar al-Sunnah Army, also claimed responsibility and posted identity cards of men who were on the helicopter on a Web site, including at least two that bore the name of Arthur Laguna, who was later identified by his mother as among those killed.
Laguna was a 52-year-old pilot for Blackwater who previously served in the Army and the California National Guard, his mother, Lydia Laguna, of Rio Linda, Calif., told the AP. She said she received a call from her other son, also a Blackwater pilot in Baghdad, notifying her of Arthur's death.
Witnesses in the Fadhil neighborhood told the AP that they saw the helicopter go down after gunmen on the ground opened fire. Accounts varied, but all were consistent that at least one person operating the aircraft had been shot and badly hurt before the crash.
Blackwater USA provides security for State Department officials in Iraq, trains military units from around the world, and works for corporate clients.
"These untimely deaths are a reminder of the extraordinary circumstances under which our professionals voluntarily serve to bring freedom and democracy to the Iraqi people," the Blackwater statement said.
Katy Helvenston, mother of Scott Helvenston, a Blackwater employee who died in March 2004 when a frenzied mob of insurgents ambushed a supply convoy they were escorting through Fallujah, said Tuesday's crash "just breaks my heart."
"I'm so sick of these kids dying," she said.
Before Tuesday's crash, at least 22 employees of Blackwater Security Consulting or Blackwater USA had died in Iraq as a result of war related violence, according to the Web site iCasualties.org, which tracks foreign troop fatalities in Iraq.
The crash of the small surveillance helicopter, believed to be a version of the Hughes Defender that was developed during the Vietnam War, was the second associated with the U.S. war effort in Iraq in four days.
A U.S. Army Black Hawk helicopter went down Saturday northeast of Baghdad, killing all 12 service members on board. The American military in Baghdad has refused to confirm a report by a Pentagon official that debris at the crash site indicated the helicopter was shot out of the air by a surface-to-air missile.
By QASSIM ABDUL-ZAHRA, Associated Press Writer 32 minutes ago
Four of the five Americans killed when a U.S. security company's helicopter crashed in a dangerous Sunni neighborhood in central Baghdad were shot execution style in the back the head, Iraqi and U.S. officials said Wednesday.
A senior Iraqi military official said a machine gunner downed the helicopter, but a U.S. military official in Washington said there were no indications that the aircraft, owned by Blackwater USA, had been shot out of the sky. Two Sunni insurgent groups, separately, claimed responsibility for the crash.
In Washington, a U.S. defense official said four of the five killed were shot in the back of the head but did not know whether they were still alive when they were shot. The defense official spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak on the record.
The helicopter was shot down after responding to assist a U.S. Embassy ground convoy that came under fire in a Sunni neighborhood in central Baghdad, said a U.S. diplomatic official in Washington.
A second helicopter also was struck, but there were no casualties among its crew, said the diplomatic official, who spoke anonymously because he was not authorized to make statements.
The doomed helicopter swooped into electrical wires before the crash. U.S. officials said it was not clear if gunfire brought the aircraft down or caused its pilot to veer into the wires during evasive manuevers.
The Iraqi official, who also declined to be identified because details had not been made public, said the four were shot in the back of the head while they were on the ground. The crash occurred in an old neighborhood of narrow streets on the east bank of the Tigris River, north of the central city.
In separate fighting Wednesday, U.S. and Iraqi troops battled gunmen firing heavy weapons from concrete high-rises in another Sunni insurgent stronghold, on the west bank of the Tigris north of the heavily fortified Green Zone. Iraq's defense minister said as many as 30 militants were killed and 27 captured.
Apache attack helicopters buzzed past the tall buildings and radio towers along Haifa Street, while several Humvees drove on the tree-lined street below. Gunfire rang in the background as shells fell, according to AP Television News footage.
The U.S. military said the targeted raids were intended to clear the area of militants, dubbing the operation dubbed Tomahawk Strike 11. The clashes were the second major fighting to break out in the area in less than a month.
In the aftermath of Tuesday's Blackwater helicopter crash, U.S. forces were planning to blow up the wreckage to prevent people from scavenging equipment, the Iraqi official said.
Blackwater USA confirmed that five Americans employed by the North Carolina-based company as security professionals were killed, but provided no identities or other details.
On Wednesday, U.S. Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad offered condolences for the five Americans killed.
"We lost five fine men," Khalilzad told reporters during a round-table discussion at the embassy in the heavily fortified Green Zone in Baghdad.
He said he had traveled with the men who were killed and had gone to the morgue to view the bodies, but offered no further details beyond saying that it was difficult to determine what happened because of "the fog of war."
Another American official in Baghdad, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said three Blackwater helicopters were involved. One had landed for an unknown reason and one of the Blackwater employees was shot at that point, he said.
That helicopter apparently was able to take off but a second one then crashed in the same area, he added without explaining the involvement of the third helicopter.
The Qatar-based Al-Jazeera television said the 1920 Revolution Brigades insurgent group claimed responsibility for shooting down the helicopter and showed a video taken by a cell phone of a mass of still-smoldering twisted metal that it was said was the wreckage of the chopper.
Another Sunni insurgent group, the Ansar al-Sunnah Army, also claimed responsibility and posted identity cards of men who were on the helicopter on a Web site, including at least two that bore the name of Arthur Laguna, who was later identified by his mother as among those killed.
Laguna was a 52-year-old pilot for Blackwater who previously served in the Army and the California National Guard, his mother, Lydia Laguna, of Rio Linda, Calif., told the AP. She said she received a call from her other son, also a Blackwater pilot in Baghdad, notifying her of Arthur's death.
Witnesses in the Fadhil neighborhood told the AP that they saw the helicopter go down after gunmen on the ground opened fire. Accounts varied, but all were consistent that at least one person operating the aircraft had been shot and badly hurt before the crash.
Blackwater USA provides security for State Department officials in Iraq, trains military units from around the world, and works for corporate clients.
"These untimely deaths are a reminder of the extraordinary circumstances under which our professionals voluntarily serve to bring freedom and democracy to the Iraqi people," the Blackwater statement said.
Katy Helvenston, mother of Scott Helvenston, a Blackwater employee who died in March 2004 when a frenzied mob of insurgents ambushed a supply convoy they were escorting through Fallujah, said Tuesday's crash "just breaks my heart."
"I'm so sick of these kids dying," she said.
Before Tuesday's crash, at least 22 employees of Blackwater Security Consulting or Blackwater USA had died in Iraq as a result of war related violence, according to the Web site iCasualties.org, which tracks foreign troop fatalities in Iraq.
The crash of the small surveillance helicopter, believed to be a version of the Hughes Defender that was developed during the Vietnam War, was the second associated with the U.S. war effort in Iraq in four days.
A U.S. Army Black Hawk helicopter went down Saturday northeast of Baghdad, killing all 12 service members on board. The American military in Baghdad has refused to confirm a report by a Pentagon official that debris at the crash site indicated the helicopter was shot out of the air by a surface-to-air missile.
Last edited by SASless; 24th Jan 2007 at 17:36.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Cornwall
Age: 75
Posts: 1,307
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SAS
Yes - but what the hell has this got to do with the war on terrorism. I seem to remember that a congressional committee found that there was no connection between Al Queda and Iraq. Whatever the situation now it certainly wasn't the situation at the start of this debacle. This is a poor quality president presiding over a poorly managed and ill conceived foreign policy disaster that has, for the time being at least, diminished the standing of my friends in the US in the eyes of the rest of the world and compromised the sense of sadness we feel when chopper guys buy the farm in the course of earning their daily bread.
JimEli
For 'backbone' read $$$$$$$$ (it's easy when it's not your money, our lot do it every day)
G
JimEli
For 'backbone' read $$$$$$$$ (it's easy when it's not your money, our lot do it every day)
G
Thread Starter
Perhaps if one would read past the headlines you would see the report showed no direct connection between Saddam/Iraq and Al Qaeda/911. It did confirm contacts between Al Qaeda and Iraqi Intelligence officers. One might also recall Saddam provided financial assistance to family members of Palestinian suicide bombers after their loved one took a one way ride on the TNT Express.
Perhaps the difference between our two countries is we prefer not fighting wars on our own ground and try to fight them in someone else's ground. That is both good and bad if you consider that makes such things a much more distant and less threatening situation for Joe Six Pack here in the USA.
I endorse the concept of reading about Suicide Bombers doing themselves in somewhere besides Main Street, US of A.
Perhaps the Channel is not wide enough....as the UK seems to have had the bad luck to experience the effectiveness of the Suicide bomber and we on the far side of the Atlantic have escaped that thus far.
Who knows how long that will be is the question.
Perhaps the difference between our two countries is we prefer not fighting wars on our own ground and try to fight them in someone else's ground. That is both good and bad if you consider that makes such things a much more distant and less threatening situation for Joe Six Pack here in the USA.
I endorse the concept of reading about Suicide Bombers doing themselves in somewhere besides Main Street, US of A.
Perhaps the Channel is not wide enough....as the UK seems to have had the bad luck to experience the effectiveness of the Suicide bomber and we on the far side of the Atlantic have escaped that thus far.
Who knows how long that will be is the question.