Civilian Helicopter down in Iraq

[Geoffersincornwall]

Well said.........

The analogy of Bush as 'KING' sits well with our ever more presidential BLIAR. He of 'who needs a bl***y parliament anyway - they just get in the way'.
Our industry has a dreadful reputation when it comes to training managers in a complex and technically challenging world but this fades to nought when we consider the management skills of a bunch of politicians. If they have ever done a real job in their entire lives that's a bonus but I'll leave it there. I like the idea of Shakespeare having the last word.
G

[B Sousa]

"The King has a heavy reckoning, Bert. He took us there, and he blew it."

I think he had a lot of help along the way. Its becoming a mess that we all recognize from some years back..

[Flying Lawyer]

Geoffers

Extremely good article which IMHO sums up Blair perfectly: Here

[NickLappos]

B Sousa,

The Bush crap you are spouting about "You voted for it, too," gets nowhere with me. Either he is the Commander in Chief, or he is ducking responsibility. He tries to flim-flam us now with that line, but he can't have it both ways.

Bush championed this war, told us we were in national peril unless we fought it, said things about "mushroom clouds" and arrogantly defied virtually every other country on the planet. He allowed us to villify the French (who said there were no WMD) and he sent stooges Blair, Rice and Powell around to trade their good names for his cause. He wheeled in Rumsfeld, who fired 40 generals to get to the one who would fight the war his way, on the cheap. He sacrificed the careers of 250000 guardsmen by basically shanghaiing them into service against the existing enlistment laws. He took a very very fine Army and nearly broke it trying to shore up the cartoon republic he built with scotch tape and spit. He gave weapons to poorly trained rabble who turned around and used them to kill their countrymen, and then he calls them "terrorists". He strutted across that carrier deck in the uniform he refused to wear when it was his turn in combat.

This is Bush's war, and he will wear it around his neck for centuries.

[mikelimapapa]

Very well said Nick, couldn't agree more

[AndyJB32]

I agree absolutely Nick, with the exception of calling Blair a stooge. That implies a naivete and innocence which i feel isn't justified. Blair's role was as coldly calculated as Bush's, just that for neither of them the gamble has paid off, and thousands of people are now paying a very costly price.

[soggyboxers]

Nick,
You're showing a new side to those of us who've never met you. I must say, that I was taken in by Bush and Bliar and now the overwhelming evidence against them has changed my view of the war in Iraq. I like your Shakespearean reference - he has so often said something which is still apposite.

[SASless]

Neo Con.....I always thought that was a recently mugged Liberal.

Wikpedia suggests I was close but no cigar!

The original neoconservatives were a band of liberal intellectuals who rebelled against the Democratic Party's leftward drift on defense issues in the 1970s. At first the neoconservatives clustered around Sen. Henry "Scoop" Jackson, a Democrat, but then they aligned themselves with Ronald Reagan and the Republicans, who promised to confront Soviet expansionism. The neoconservatives, in the famous formulation of one of their leaders, Irving Kristol, were "liberals mugged by reality."

Pesky Liberals....one never knows what they might be up to.

Since communism has foundered upon the rocks of economics, corruption, ineptitude, and democracy....I guess that scores at least one victory for those vile Neo Cons.

[B Sousa]

"The Bush crap you are spouting about "You voted for it, too," gets nowhere with me."
Gee Nick, I dont recall saying that and in fact I just checked, have no clue where you got that.
My point was that HE ALONE had some help. If I recall a lot of Demos signed off on this thing also and now that all has gone to Sh1t, everyone seems to be raising their pantlegs preparing to swim.
I see things a bit different I guess. I see the war is over and now we have military folks in Iraq who might as well be unarmed and are getting their butts kicked daily. They are not Policemen.
And Im saying that since we are there, not should we go. Either get in and do a military op, win the dam thing or pack your bags and come home........
The U.S. can no longer fight, they are restricted by too many CNN types who think war is violent.Wake the XXXX up, it is extremely violent and if you dont kick ass ,destroy some things and kill a lot of these people your not going to win...
I give a rats ass whether you like Bush or not. Im just tired of this pussyfooting around.
Somewhere in this mess Im sure we agree,on something.
"He strutted across that carrier deck in the uniform he refused to wear when it was his turn in combat." A bit harsh, that one. Did he refuse or did he have a choice? I think you will find that he had a choice that was acceptable and legal to thousands who also did the same thing.

[SASless]

Bert Baby.....

Are you the "Tin Man"?



(Fellers....we have a celebrity amongst us!)

[B Sousa]

"Are you the "Tin Man"?"
Sasless, you mean by Dale Brown?? Yes I know Dale, Do I sound that gruff?? Im actually very nice.
That was my Alma Mater for 27 years.

Why, you want me to get him to sign a copy for you and bring it to HAI??

[NickLappos]

Bert,
Here is Dwight Eisenhower's proposed speech had D Day failed:

"Our landings have failed and I have withdrawn the troops. My decision to attack at this time and place was based on the best information available. The troops, the air and the Navy did all that bravery could do. If any blame or fault attaches to the attempt it is mine alone."

Sound like Bush?

[blave]

Ah, er, boys... This is going down a serious rat hole that could alienate folks that have been comrade-ly up to this point.

I have an extremely low opinion of our "president" and no respect at all for same, but I worry that these political "conversations" will get real ugly real fast. Can we get back to talking about something helicopter-related?

Like Robinson rotor design, for instance .


Dave Blevins

[SASless]

Heck fire Bert....bring him along in person.

I do enjoy his books....who knows....might be some yarns thrown about that might give him ideas for a new book....after all he does write fiction. Nick would probably trip over his shoe laces cozying up to a fellow writer.

[B Sousa]

SAS
I will give him a call. He is usually desk bound for another book.
(P.S.) called the wife and left a message about HAI. Hes out with a friend in the Cheyenne. He only has a P210 (sweet)
"Sound like Bush?"
Nick Were not going anywhere with this one. I certainly havent seen the white flag yet and until I do . Its go forward.
(White Flag is traditional Demos flag of Victory)

[JimEli]

Originally Posted by NickLappos

Bert,
Here is Dwight Eisenhower's proposed speech had D Day failed:

"Our landings have failed and I have withdrawn the troops. My decision to attack at this time and place was based on the best information available. The troops, the air and the Navy did all that bravery could do. If any blame or fault attaches to the attempt it is mine alone."

Sound like Bush?

Shouldn’t you be quoting Roosevelt?

[SASless]

At the late evening briefing on Sunday, June 4, Group Captain Stagg [staff meteorologist] told Eisenhower that there would be a window of clearer weather opening up over Normandy late on June 5. While overall the weather would remain poor, visibility would increase and the winds die to a point that made the invasion possible.
Admiral Ramsey pointed out that if the invasion was to proceed on June 6, he needed to give his ships movement orders in the next thirty minutes. Ike polled his commanders, who were hesitant, but determined that the invasion should proceed. Montgomery was perhaps the most effusive in support of going, but the final decision was Eisenhower's.
The staff officers left the room, leaving the commanders behind. Eisenhower was quiet, mulling over the most critical decision he'd ever had to make. If the weather turned against them and derailed the invasion, it was quite possible that the Allies could lose the war in the west. At the very least, the fight would drag on for a few years more.
The room was silent. Bedell Smith, Ike's chief of staff, later recalled that the only sounds were the wind and the rain pounding Southwick House while his boss wrestled with the momentous decision.
"I am quite positive we must give the order," Ike said. "I don't like it, but there it is… I don't' see how we can do anything else."
With that, the invasion was on -- contingent on a final weather brief the next morning. Eisenhower's subordinates rushed from the room to set things in motion.
Just hours later the officers reconvened; it was still possible to postpone the invasion if the weather forecast had changed. Stagg reaffirmed his prediction: there would be a window of acceptable weather. Eisenhower sat in silence for a few moments on a sofa.
"Well, Stagg," he said, smiling, "If this forecast comes off, I promise you we'll have a celebration when the time comes."
Then, after a brief discussion, Ike said, "OK, we'll go."
###
Sometime during that day, Eisenhower, left alone with his concerns as the vast machine he'd put in motion rolled toward France, pulled out paper and pencil to compose a note he hoped never to use. It was a message to be read in the event the invasion failed.
Ike wrote, "Our landings in the Cherbourg-Havre area have failed to gain a satisfactory foothold and the troops have been withdrawn."
The original draft of the note, saved by Eisenhower's naval aide, shows that Ike crossed out this use of the passive voice, substituting instead a bold claim to personal responsibility. The sentence now ended with, "I have withdrawn the troops."
Eisenhower continued in this way, the commander taking personal responsibility for the actions -- and the failure -- of the nearly two million people involved in the vast operation.
"My decision to attack at this time and place was based upon the best information available. The troops, the air and the navy did all that bravery and devotion to duty could do. If any blame or fault attaches to this attempt it is mine alone."
Eisenhower's reputation and place in history were guaranteed by what happened over the following year on the large stage that was the war in Europe, and in his two terms as President. But this note, with his shouldering of specific, personal accountability, may have been his finest moment as a leader.

It was written "before" the invasion began long before he knew how it would turn out. Thank goodness it was never used.


As broadcast to the World .......perhaps some folks were posting at Move On or something when Bush's televised speech was broadcast the other night

.

"The situation in Iraq is unacceptable to the American people — and it is unacceptable to me," he said. "Our troops in Iraq have fought bravely. They have done everything we have asked them to do. Where mistakes have been made, the responsibility rests with me."

[tottigol]

Gentlemen, when I read the name of the pilot killed I thought of his brother whom I know. A quick phone call confirmed that he was on the same sortie, we can only begin to understand what his feelings may have been when he called home to give the news.
i believe some of the folks involved with Blackwater are not doing this just for the money, but also for their ideals.
So far I agree wholeheartedly with most of the posters on a thread that ought to be continued over several pints and in private (even though I would not want to associate good beer with certain feelings), and I had to push my jaw back in the closed position after one of you guys surprised me with his statements.
As far as terrorism is concerned, I am afraid we are yet to see the worst in Europe and elsewhere.

[B Sousa]

Quote:
"The situation in Iraq is unacceptable to the American people — and it is unacceptable to me," he said. "Our troops in Iraq have fought bravely. They have done everything we have asked them to do. Where mistakes have been made, the responsibility rests with me."

That sounds like Bush. Please dont tell Nick, he wont buy Beer at HAI.

[Flying Lawyer]

Originally Posted by tottigol

As far as terrorism is concerned, I am afraid we are yet to see the worst in Europe and elsewhere.

You may well be right.

That's just one of many reasons why large numbers of us were opposed to Blair (for his personal motives) dragging Britain into the war on Iraq.