Conversion from FAA to JAA coming to an end?
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a ATPL(H) syllabus? it's about time. although i wouldn't want to be the first people sitting the exams, as there will be no feedback papers etc. one of the reasons the top groundschool providers gets such good pass rates is because of their excellent feedback obtained over many years. i heard that not one single person passed the first JAA ATPL Instruments exam in the entire uk!
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Alright, Im from Europe and i had to go through the whole ATPL process back in 2001, went through the whole ATPL groundschool and all the exams. I had decided to go to an english school in the US to do my JAA IR and CPL afterwards but ended up actually meeting a girl from the US that i got married to so i moved to the US and gave up the JAA system to create a life with her in the US, not because i really wanted to fly in the US now i just waisted a whole lot of money but because she wanted to live there....
So i started my FAA training and was hoping that my JAA ATPL training would help me alot, just to find out that i really just waisted my time with the JAA...... WHY??? ok heres why!!!
You sit in a ATPL class after you complete you PPL, now you go through alot of stuff that you have never been in contact with, Ok you go through stuff for your PPL but no where near what the ATP contains, and it is for many people hard to learn something when you are not able to apply it in pratice i mean you sit and learn alot of stuff about instruments navigation and so on and you are not able to use it before you finish all your exams and start the reminder of your training.... You try to cramp alot of stuff in in a small amount of time and most students and dont say otherwise end up sitting in the end before the exams and try to learn all the feedback questions that other students have given the school, because thats the only way for them to pass.... and when they then finish, it takes about a day or 2 before most of what you learnd is forgotten......
How many can honestly say that they remember alot from their ATPL 1 year later, atleast i can be honest and say that i dont remember much.....
Anyway, i started my FAA training and wasent able to use much of my JAA ATPL in that and finished my IR CPL CFI/CFII and started working my ass off as a flight instructor making next to nothing, but hey im not gonna complain...
After 2 years in the US my wife decided to run off with another guy so here i was stuck in the US for no reason and didnt really want to stay cos all of my family is back in Europe, but hey i just spend all my money on FAA licence instead of JAA and my ATPL didnt work anymore so i would have to stay in the US try to get a job or go back to Europe and do the whole ATPL again and yes i did talk to the CAA no way around it and then spend alot of extra money so i decided to stay and got a job flying LEAR JETS as an F/O good job good pay so i couldnt complain.....
I was in the US until september where i applied for a job in the middle east and actually got it so i moved.... and currently fly Lears here in the middle east........
Could i have done everything different YES would it have made me a better pilot, WHO KNOWS, did the JAA ATPL make me a better pilot NO.... would it have made me a better pilot if i had done the rest of my training JAA? NO.
What made me the pilot i am today is Experience, NOT 14 exams that i forgot within a year anyway!!! FAA OR JAA licence wouldnt have made a difference, flying is the same do i fly in europe or US its the same that applies rules might be different but at the end of the day Flying is flying....
I actually like the US way MUCH better then in Europe...The keyword in the US is experience, without min 1200 hours of flying you wont even be able to get a real job which is GOOD cos hopefylly you learn something in that time, where in Europe if you know the right people you can end up in a 737 with 250 hours which is SCARRRYYYYY no real life experience but oh well people can kill me now lol
In my mind the way CAA should do the training would be same way as the USA and ok they wont ever get rid of the JAA ATPL but why not give the kid a chance to learn and get experience before you kill his spirit with all this crap....how many havent i seen give up flying after the PPL, because the ATPL got to much of them...... There aint no Joy of flyin the whole year you do the ATPL and the whole reason why we do this job is because we love FLYING......
Why dont you go do your PPL your instrument and you Commercial....you wont use the atpl anyway really for that, and then go get a job get experience flying learn it and love it be a flight instructor or be lucky go get a job flying 737 and then say the ATPL is a requirement for you to be able to opgrade as a captain or something.... That would be the way of doing things right, and i tell you its a whole lot easier to do the ATPL when you got and idea about what flying is about....
Im sitting for the fun of it now once in a while with all those ATPL feedback questions and im actually able to answer them now because of what i have been doing and what i have learnd flying.....
And my situation again, i wont get a job in Europe unless i spend a whole lot of money converting my licence and take the ATPL again.... will it make me a better pilot????? is it gonna be any difference for me flying lears for a company in UK then it is here..... if so let me know cos im flying all around europe right now so if there is something i dont know i really like to know about it lol......
So would it be an idea to accept FAA licence and experience with the CAA i would hope so...not that i would go anyway lol pay is way better here anyway lol
And finally thet guy saying that europe would be full of american pilots with FAA licence HAAA no way.....more jobs and MUCH better in the US, only reason that i moved was to be closer to my family....why would they move to europe away from their family for a job that prob wont even pay half of what they would make in the US and there is WAY more jobs there anyway......
Anyway you can all kill me now if you think all i said is CRAP
So i started my FAA training and was hoping that my JAA ATPL training would help me alot, just to find out that i really just waisted my time with the JAA...... WHY??? ok heres why!!!
You sit in a ATPL class after you complete you PPL, now you go through alot of stuff that you have never been in contact with, Ok you go through stuff for your PPL but no where near what the ATP contains, and it is for many people hard to learn something when you are not able to apply it in pratice i mean you sit and learn alot of stuff about instruments navigation and so on and you are not able to use it before you finish all your exams and start the reminder of your training.... You try to cramp alot of stuff in in a small amount of time and most students and dont say otherwise end up sitting in the end before the exams and try to learn all the feedback questions that other students have given the school, because thats the only way for them to pass.... and when they then finish, it takes about a day or 2 before most of what you learnd is forgotten......
How many can honestly say that they remember alot from their ATPL 1 year later, atleast i can be honest and say that i dont remember much.....
Anyway, i started my FAA training and wasent able to use much of my JAA ATPL in that and finished my IR CPL CFI/CFII and started working my ass off as a flight instructor making next to nothing, but hey im not gonna complain...
After 2 years in the US my wife decided to run off with another guy so here i was stuck in the US for no reason and didnt really want to stay cos all of my family is back in Europe, but hey i just spend all my money on FAA licence instead of JAA and my ATPL didnt work anymore so i would have to stay in the US try to get a job or go back to Europe and do the whole ATPL again and yes i did talk to the CAA no way around it and then spend alot of extra money so i decided to stay and got a job flying LEAR JETS as an F/O good job good pay so i couldnt complain.....
I was in the US until september where i applied for a job in the middle east and actually got it so i moved.... and currently fly Lears here in the middle east........
Could i have done everything different YES would it have made me a better pilot, WHO KNOWS, did the JAA ATPL make me a better pilot NO.... would it have made me a better pilot if i had done the rest of my training JAA? NO.
What made me the pilot i am today is Experience, NOT 14 exams that i forgot within a year anyway!!! FAA OR JAA licence wouldnt have made a difference, flying is the same do i fly in europe or US its the same that applies rules might be different but at the end of the day Flying is flying....
I actually like the US way MUCH better then in Europe...The keyword in the US is experience, without min 1200 hours of flying you wont even be able to get a real job which is GOOD cos hopefylly you learn something in that time, where in Europe if you know the right people you can end up in a 737 with 250 hours which is SCARRRYYYYY no real life experience but oh well people can kill me now lol
In my mind the way CAA should do the training would be same way as the USA and ok they wont ever get rid of the JAA ATPL but why not give the kid a chance to learn and get experience before you kill his spirit with all this crap....how many havent i seen give up flying after the PPL, because the ATPL got to much of them...... There aint no Joy of flyin the whole year you do the ATPL and the whole reason why we do this job is because we love FLYING......
Why dont you go do your PPL your instrument and you Commercial....you wont use the atpl anyway really for that, and then go get a job get experience flying learn it and love it be a flight instructor or be lucky go get a job flying 737 and then say the ATPL is a requirement for you to be able to opgrade as a captain or something.... That would be the way of doing things right, and i tell you its a whole lot easier to do the ATPL when you got and idea about what flying is about....
Im sitting for the fun of it now once in a while with all those ATPL feedback questions and im actually able to answer them now because of what i have been doing and what i have learnd flying.....
And my situation again, i wont get a job in Europe unless i spend a whole lot of money converting my licence and take the ATPL again.... will it make me a better pilot????? is it gonna be any difference for me flying lears for a company in UK then it is here..... if so let me know cos im flying all around europe right now so if there is something i dont know i really like to know about it lol......
So would it be an idea to accept FAA licence and experience with the CAA i would hope so...not that i would go anyway lol pay is way better here anyway lol
And finally thet guy saying that europe would be full of american pilots with FAA licence HAAA no way.....more jobs and MUCH better in the US, only reason that i moved was to be closer to my family....why would they move to europe away from their family for a job that prob wont even pay half of what they would make in the US and there is WAY more jobs there anyway......
Anyway you can all kill me now if you think all i said is CRAP
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Well, I am not going to kill what you said... I think it is great to see someone like YOU make a comment about it after almost going through it.
I have to say that I got a student right now that has taken he's PPL in Europe. And he says that he is so glad he came to the US to finish he's CPL/ CFII. Due to the fact that not only does he save allot of money, but also gain more experience.
The amount of flying aircraft in the US is so much more than in Europe. Radio calls, airspaces and air traffic.. And this also means more flight planning and situational experience.. (correct me if I am wrong)
There is so much more to pay attention to. (from JAA educated PPL)
I think it's so stupid to see that JAA and FAA pilots fight about who is the best.. It's not about that.. It's about making the system itself better for the next guy who wants to get a career as a pilot.
If I have to go through JAA exams, so bee it. But I will for sure try to make it better for the next.
I have to say that I got a student right now that has taken he's PPL in Europe. And he says that he is so glad he came to the US to finish he's CPL/ CFII. Due to the fact that not only does he save allot of money, but also gain more experience.
The amount of flying aircraft in the US is so much more than in Europe. Radio calls, airspaces and air traffic.. And this also means more flight planning and situational experience.. (correct me if I am wrong)
There is so much more to pay attention to. (from JAA educated PPL)
I think it's so stupid to see that JAA and FAA pilots fight about who is the best.. It's not about that.. It's about making the system itself better for the next guy who wants to get a career as a pilot.
If I have to go through JAA exams, so bee it. But I will for sure try to make it better for the next.
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flying in the usa isn't "better". it depends where you are. if you compare flying round the south of england compared to florida. the uk is harder.
yes it seems cheaper to do the cpl/cfi in the usa, but if you have to convert to jaa when your visa is up, and you want to come home - it can work out to the same cost. plus there is all the moving/flight/health insurance/car costs.
yes it seems cheaper to do the cpl/cfi in the usa, but if you have to convert to jaa when your visa is up, and you want to come home - it can work out to the same cost. plus there is all the moving/flight/health insurance/car costs.
Last edited by thecontroller; 22nd Dec 2006 at 08:57. Reason: adding stuff
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Yap yap yap....... you can always find places no matter where you go where i would be easier to fly.....South of uk yes hard south of spain hmmm prob not what difference does it make, you take yourself in IFR down to the minimums in minniapolis when its 10 below and you might have some fun there too..... Again you can argue the fliying but thats not the problem, The problem is the system and the system doesent work...
The JAA system is good dont get me wrong, but it aint perfect and the ATPL is one of the things they should look at.....
Why do you think more and more companies here in the middle east is now accepting pilots with FAA licence, companies that 2 years ago required JAA ATPL, because they see that pilots educated in the US got alot of experience, atleast 1200 min and most times even more...
I sat down and wrote and add on a different forum regarding a job opening we had for an FO to fly the lear, JAA/FAA didnt matter......
I got a WHOLE LOT of resumes, lots of JAA Guy's with between 250-400 hours lots of them even had a selfsponsored 737 Type, and then i had the FAA guys with NO 737 type but between 1500 hours and 2500 hours......who should my chief pilot take for interview?? wouldnt even conside they low time pilots, first off because of their lagging experience and second off because insurance is a whole lot cheaper if you got time in your book and the insurance does not look at wether you got FAA or JAA licence.... So what good did the JAA do to these guys, apart from putting them in the hole big time financially, NOTHING... they are sitting desperate with no job and endup desperate enough to spend an additional 15000 punds on a Stupid 737 type and only maybe and i say maybe 1 out of 20 are lucky to get a job.... THATS THE FACT and i know them as some of my friends a instructors on several british schools and knows all about it...
And finally dont get me wrong, the FAA systems is not perfect not at all....you got brilliant pilots with 900-1000 hours who cant get a job before they reach the golden 1200 but thats atleast something you can work with, you might have to slave yourself a bit more and instruct or some other crap for a little while longer, but atleast you FLY.
And at the end of the day flying is what we do, and we are good at it, Love it and live it cos before we know it its all too late, flying in africa, europe, Us, Asia, South america, its all the same we do this because we love it, so dont let the system take the joy away
The JAA system is good dont get me wrong, but it aint perfect and the ATPL is one of the things they should look at.....
Why do you think more and more companies here in the middle east is now accepting pilots with FAA licence, companies that 2 years ago required JAA ATPL, because they see that pilots educated in the US got alot of experience, atleast 1200 min and most times even more...
I sat down and wrote and add on a different forum regarding a job opening we had for an FO to fly the lear, JAA/FAA didnt matter......
I got a WHOLE LOT of resumes, lots of JAA Guy's with between 250-400 hours lots of them even had a selfsponsored 737 Type, and then i had the FAA guys with NO 737 type but between 1500 hours and 2500 hours......who should my chief pilot take for interview?? wouldnt even conside they low time pilots, first off because of their lagging experience and second off because insurance is a whole lot cheaper if you got time in your book and the insurance does not look at wether you got FAA or JAA licence.... So what good did the JAA do to these guys, apart from putting them in the hole big time financially, NOTHING... they are sitting desperate with no job and endup desperate enough to spend an additional 15000 punds on a Stupid 737 type and only maybe and i say maybe 1 out of 20 are lucky to get a job.... THATS THE FACT and i know them as some of my friends a instructors on several british schools and knows all about it...
And finally dont get me wrong, the FAA systems is not perfect not at all....you got brilliant pilots with 900-1000 hours who cant get a job before they reach the golden 1200 but thats atleast something you can work with, you might have to slave yourself a bit more and instruct or some other crap for a little while longer, but atleast you FLY.
And at the end of the day flying is what we do, and we are good at it, Love it and live it cos before we know it its all too late, flying in africa, europe, Us, Asia, South america, its all the same we do this because we love it, so dont let the system take the joy away
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mmmmm. yes, i can see your point. although i think in the heli world it's a little different, if you have a JAA IR then there is a very good chance you will get a job in the north sea (at the moment)
i think the magic 1,000 hours "rule" doesnt seem to apply anymore, i think nowadays its all about what type of hours you have. ie 400 turbine is worth a LOT more than 800 piston hours.
i know guys who are flying A109s with 400 piston hours, and i also know guys that are still instructing on r22s with 2,500 hours. i think it depends on what you're willing to put up with, if you're willing to live anywhere and of course what contacts you have. and a bit of luck of course....
there seems to be a much more clearly defined career "path" in the fixed wing world. not so in the rotary world.
i think the magic 1,000 hours "rule" doesnt seem to apply anymore, i think nowadays its all about what type of hours you have. ie 400 turbine is worth a LOT more than 800 piston hours.
i know guys who are flying A109s with 400 piston hours, and i also know guys that are still instructing on r22s with 2,500 hours. i think it depends on what you're willing to put up with, if you're willing to live anywhere and of course what contacts you have. and a bit of luck of course....
there seems to be a much more clearly defined career "path" in the fixed wing world. not so in the rotary world.
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Nope...
Nope. nothing..
I guess nothing will happen now before the JAA is replaced by the EU-ops for all of Europe. Think I heard this is to happen in 2012.
As far as myself, I have finished the JAA ATPL-H exams, gotten my CPL + IR in Europe as well.
And, my opinion is even stronger about the current requirements. The JAA is extreme.
I can only speak for the helicopter side, because I do not fly fixed wing. But 80% of the theory is already forgotten.
The worst thing about JAA is that they require so hughe amounts of theory that they take the focus off the important stuff. its not about learning the theory, but about passing the exams.. which in my eyes are wrong..
Mix the FAA with the JAA and you'll find a good level.
I guess nothing will happen now before the JAA is replaced by the EU-ops for all of Europe. Think I heard this is to happen in 2012.
As far as myself, I have finished the JAA ATPL-H exams, gotten my CPL + IR in Europe as well.
And, my opinion is even stronger about the current requirements. The JAA is extreme.
I can only speak for the helicopter side, because I do not fly fixed wing. But 80% of the theory is already forgotten.
The worst thing about JAA is that they require so hughe amounts of theory that they take the focus off the important stuff. its not about learning the theory, but about passing the exams.. which in my eyes are wrong..
Mix the FAA with the JAA and you'll find a good level.
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My understanding is that the FAA were very receptive to the idea, and a delegation from the JAA went over there, but they shelved it.
Mortenb - I can assure you there will be times when you wished you'd studied that little bit harder and/or remembered it! The JAA stuff only looks extreme because they want you to learn it all before you start, although I grant you the exam system is a disgrace for all nations concerned. Possibly 10% of the stuff you will never use, but I have used most of it, sometime.
Any professional in any industry should be on a thirst for knowledge however trivial. An FAA or Transport Canada commercial checkride is on a par with any JAA exam. Takes longer, too.
phil
Mortenb - I can assure you there will be times when you wished you'd studied that little bit harder and/or remembered it! The JAA stuff only looks extreme because they want you to learn it all before you start, although I grant you the exam system is a disgrace for all nations concerned. Possibly 10% of the stuff you will never use, but I have used most of it, sometime.
Any professional in any industry should be on a thirst for knowledge however trivial. An FAA or Transport Canada commercial checkride is on a par with any JAA exam. Takes longer, too.
phil
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Campaign Against Aviation...
How about this one?
Chasing an FI(A) with about 1 700 hours of dual given 30 years ago as a CFI in the States I finally scrounged a letter from someone who belongs to the family that once owned the school (closed long ago) to provide the "independent confirmation" of my time (What, I am going to forge logbooks from 30 years ago?) so that I don't have to work under supervision and supervise 25 solo flights.
Loooong silence from the CAA and then back comes the acceptance of my time but a request for something else (that no one had mentioned when I spoke directly to the CAA at the Belgrano) before the restriction comes off, the rating issued with the restriction and the requirement to pay an extra 84 quid to lift the restriction. No phone call or e-mail to tell me what they wanted first, they just mailed all my logbooks back along with this letter, when the new form does say to provide all the logbooks in connection with the application.
You know, I think these people are toying with me! Should I write to my congressman?
Chasing an FI(A) with about 1 700 hours of dual given 30 years ago as a CFI in the States I finally scrounged a letter from someone who belongs to the family that once owned the school (closed long ago) to provide the "independent confirmation" of my time (What, I am going to forge logbooks from 30 years ago?) so that I don't have to work under supervision and supervise 25 solo flights.
Loooong silence from the CAA and then back comes the acceptance of my time but a request for something else (that no one had mentioned when I spoke directly to the CAA at the Belgrano) before the restriction comes off, the rating issued with the restriction and the requirement to pay an extra 84 quid to lift the restriction. No phone call or e-mail to tell me what they wanted first, they just mailed all my logbooks back along with this letter, when the new form does say to provide all the logbooks in connection with the application.
You know, I think these people are toying with me! Should I write to my congressman?
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Hey
Hi I am from Oslo Norway .
I have been livening in USA FL for over 8 yrs.
I have been working with one of the regional airlines and have over 1700 TT With 550 Turbine multi.
I got furloughed last week, and where about to convert my license FAA ATPL-JAA ATPL. Could you please assist me with schools that do the conversion in Norway?
Your help is highly appreciated.
and God Jul
Taymor Williamson
I have been livening in USA FL for over 8 yrs.
I have been working with one of the regional airlines and have over 1700 TT With 550 Turbine multi.
I got furloughed last week, and where about to convert my license FAA ATPL-JAA ATPL. Could you please assist me with schools that do the conversion in Norway?
Your help is highly appreciated.
and God JulTaymor Williamson
