Oz Blackhawk Reported Crashed Into Sea Near Fiji
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I've seen the brand new Tiger HUET trainer in operation in Darwin. The rig is a full tandem sized cockpit mockup, without instruments or actual seats, everything is stainless steel and she's suspended above a crystal clear chlorinated pool at a lovely temperature. The pilots get in, the rig is lowered at a nice slow pace into the pool and lazily flops over on it's side, the guys unstrap and swim out of the cockpits.
That's the preparation for a stack in the water with blades exploding everywhere and turbulence and falling off the side of a boat fifty feet into the sea upside down.
Then again, a more realistic HUET trainer would be a rather hard thing to build if it was to replicate a ditching with some realism.
I guess it's better than nothing.
That's the preparation for a stack in the water with blades exploding everywhere and turbulence and falling off the side of a boat fifty feet into the sea upside down.
Then again, a more realistic HUET trainer would be a rather hard thing to build if it was to replicate a ditching with some realism.
I guess it's better than nothing.
By the way, if you haven't actually tried HUET then you probably can't comment on how benign or otherwise the dunk training seems to be. Let me assure you, clear water or not, it is BLOODY TERRIFYING!!
The Baffler
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My thoughts and sympathy go out to Bingas' family, and the family of the trooper still missing. This is a tragic accident, and a reminder that we accept risk every time we fly.
I also want to acknowledge the excellence of the crews and maintainers in 171 Sqn and the rest of Army Aviation. The whole corps, and the Army will mourn this tragic loss.
Sundance 76, if the Blackhawk fleet spent even half of its time doing maritime ops, they might be fitted with floats. As it is, they spend about 5% of their time over water. Your aircraft would not have floats either if it wasn't employed solely offshore.
I also want to acknowledge the excellence of the crews and maintainers in 171 Sqn and the rest of Army Aviation. The whole corps, and the Army will mourn this tragic loss.
Sundance 76, if the Blackhawk fleet spent even half of its time doing maritime ops, they might be fitted with floats. As it is, they spend about 5% of their time over water. Your aircraft would not have floats either if it wasn't employed solely offshore.
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http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems...2/s1802426.htm
click on the pic when it comes up, then all say
'There but for the grace of god go I.'
amen
air recirculation????? easy enough to happen, very easy!
especially in these lousy weather paterns of late.
almost picked up a burst of it today, shooting the tube we call it.
Willy willy's everywhere,coming into land, into wind one minute, proper downwind the next
click on the pic when it comes up, then all say
'There but for the grace of god go I.'
amen
air recirculation????? easy enough to happen, very easy!
especially in these lousy weather paterns of late.
almost picked up a burst of it today, shooting the tube we call it.
Willy willy's everywhere,coming into land, into wind one minute, proper downwind the next
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Regarding floats for offshore operations, the US Navy has NO floats on the H-60 family - zip, nada. The safety of the crew is assured by the escape hatches and personal protection, the aircraft is what it is - expendable. Find the floats:
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Seahawk - no floats?
Hey Nick,
When did the USN remove the floats? The RAN 70B2 still has them with the standoffs fitted to provide room between the forward excape hatches and the floats. I remember there was a problem initially with the floats inflating and covering the escape hatch because of the way the aircraft sat in the water (assuming it was a controlled ditching).
To other things....I too was getting pretty p*****d off with the media reporting and trying to focus on the Black Hawk. All the accidents in the ADF have had human factors contributing - not one has been an aircraft malfunction. Indeed, it is a true tribute to the aircraft and its designers that so many have survived these accidents and I wish the media would focus on that for once.
I've many hours in the Seahawk and it is the helicopter to measure all others by. Great control response, tons of power, lots of redundancy and built like the proverbial brick ****ehouse. I love it and I have felt so secure in it in the manu hours and crap conditions I have flown it in....as has many other naval aviatiors.
The Black Hawk is no different except the undercarraige has a very different design. Was this a factor? Well, that's why we have accident investigations and best left to the guys and gals to figure out what happened and how it happened. All I will say is that the environment is pretty unforgiving and often tests the ability of pilots. I trust the 'fly by wire' system of the NH90 will be able to keep up with the turbulence, ship motion and the variability of pilot inputs to keep up with it all....
HUET...it's a life saver and the ADF has invested huge amounts of money in training its people in HUET and continues to do so.
In the end, we put the serviceman in harms way to do a job...that's why we pay them and they accept the challenge. It can be very satisfying but every so often, something goes wrong after all, we are talking about machines and humans. Unlike a ship or a tank, when something goes wrong, we just can't stop...we want our defence forces to be risk aware NOT risk averse which is where the media and families would like to take it I'm sure. Sure, if there is blatant negligence, then action should be taken but everytime something happens in the ADF, the lawyers and the media swarm like vultures. If we're not careful, we are going to raise a bunch of 'leaders' who will be afraid to make brave decisions because of fear of persecution or litigation. There needs to be a balance.
So,in finishing my rant....I have no doubt in my mind that the guys and gals flying our defence helicopters whether at sea or over land are doing a sterling job usually in trying conditions and circumstances. Sometime things go wrong but machines break and to err is human. We just need to learn from each event to see if we can minimise the chances of it happening again. Families, your loved ones joined in the full knowledge that this is a risky business. Be happy in the knowledge that they are doing something gives thems satisfaction and that 'sense of adventure' so lacking in today's controlled life. We see many kids these days wanting no more than to be part of the Latte' set so those who are prepared to get out and be challenged should be praised.
Bingey's wife is sterling and has remembered her husband in the way I think he would want to be remembered. To all, condolences for the loss of loved ones but be comforted in the knowledge that they were serving their country and its citizens with honour (old fashion values ... hmmm, what a unique idea).
Again, sorry all, rant over!!!
When did the USN remove the floats? The RAN 70B2 still has them with the standoffs fitted to provide room between the forward excape hatches and the floats. I remember there was a problem initially with the floats inflating and covering the escape hatch because of the way the aircraft sat in the water (assuming it was a controlled ditching).
To other things....I too was getting pretty p*****d off with the media reporting and trying to focus on the Black Hawk. All the accidents in the ADF have had human factors contributing - not one has been an aircraft malfunction. Indeed, it is a true tribute to the aircraft and its designers that so many have survived these accidents and I wish the media would focus on that for once.
I've many hours in the Seahawk and it is the helicopter to measure all others by. Great control response, tons of power, lots of redundancy and built like the proverbial brick ****ehouse. I love it and I have felt so secure in it in the manu hours and crap conditions I have flown it in....as has many other naval aviatiors.
The Black Hawk is no different except the undercarraige has a very different design. Was this a factor? Well, that's why we have accident investigations and best left to the guys and gals to figure out what happened and how it happened. All I will say is that the environment is pretty unforgiving and often tests the ability of pilots. I trust the 'fly by wire' system of the NH90 will be able to keep up with the turbulence, ship motion and the variability of pilot inputs to keep up with it all....
HUET...it's a life saver and the ADF has invested huge amounts of money in training its people in HUET and continues to do so.
In the end, we put the serviceman in harms way to do a job...that's why we pay them and they accept the challenge. It can be very satisfying but every so often, something goes wrong after all, we are talking about machines and humans. Unlike a ship or a tank, when something goes wrong, we just can't stop...we want our defence forces to be risk aware NOT risk averse which is where the media and families would like to take it I'm sure. Sure, if there is blatant negligence, then action should be taken but everytime something happens in the ADF, the lawyers and the media swarm like vultures. If we're not careful, we are going to raise a bunch of 'leaders' who will be afraid to make brave decisions because of fear of persecution or litigation. There needs to be a balance.
So,in finishing my rant....I have no doubt in my mind that the guys and gals flying our defence helicopters whether at sea or over land are doing a sterling job usually in trying conditions and circumstances. Sometime things go wrong but machines break and to err is human. We just need to learn from each event to see if we can minimise the chances of it happening again. Families, your loved ones joined in the full knowledge that this is a risky business. Be happy in the knowledge that they are doing something gives thems satisfaction and that 'sense of adventure' so lacking in today's controlled life. We see many kids these days wanting no more than to be part of the Latte' set so those who are prepared to get out and be challenged should be praised.
Bingey's wife is sterling and has remembered her husband in the way I think he would want to be remembered. To all, condolences for the loss of loved ones but be comforted in the knowledge that they were serving their country and its citizens with honour (old fashion values ... hmmm, what a unique idea).
Again, sorry all, rant over!!!
Defence lobby rejects helicopter accident inquiry call
Recent media report:
A military analyst says an independent inquiry into Australian Defence Force (ADF) helicopter accidents would achieve very little.
North Queensland independent MP Bob Katter says 31 military personnel have died in non-combat accidents in the past decade, compared with five Australian deaths in combat.
Mr Katter has called on Prime Minister John Howard to set up an independent inquiry to investigate.
But Australia Defence Association (ADA) spokesman Neil James says the two are very different areas of operation and cannot be compared.
"The reason for the discrepancy between the number of people killed in accidents and the number of people killed in combat is quite simple," he said.
"We fly helicopters all the time yet we're only in combat occasionally over the last 30 years.
"So given that each accident was thoroughly investigated and there's no pattern between them, I can't see what an independent inquiry into all of them would actually achieve."
Meanwhile, the Defence Department says it has video footage of the fatal Black Hawk helicopter accident.
The helicopter plunged into the sea off Fiji on Wednesday afternoon while trying to land on HMAS Kanimbla.
A closed circuit television above the flight deck on the Navy ship captured images of the crash, as well as all arrivals and departures.
That video will be examined by the air accident investigation team, before the Defence Department considers releasing it to the public.
The body of the pilot, Captain Mark Bingley, has been returned to his home town of Townsville overnight, while the search is continuing for missing soldier, Trooper Joshua Porter.
End:
I support the view of the ADF, the overall accident rate of of the Army per 100,000 hours flown is as good as the best, and although we can try extra hard and the ADF investigation may recommned changes (if any), the effort in a politically driven high level enquiry at the top; and on top of the current investigation system would tie up ADF resources which could be better used at the coal face enhance operational supervision, or whatever is needed when the facts are known,
Wot I am saying is: pollies go home and stop scoring points!
A military analyst says an independent inquiry into Australian Defence Force (ADF) helicopter accidents would achieve very little.
North Queensland independent MP Bob Katter says 31 military personnel have died in non-combat accidents in the past decade, compared with five Australian deaths in combat.
Mr Katter has called on Prime Minister John Howard to set up an independent inquiry to investigate.
But Australia Defence Association (ADA) spokesman Neil James says the two are very different areas of operation and cannot be compared.
"The reason for the discrepancy between the number of people killed in accidents and the number of people killed in combat is quite simple," he said.
"We fly helicopters all the time yet we're only in combat occasionally over the last 30 years.
"So given that each accident was thoroughly investigated and there's no pattern between them, I can't see what an independent inquiry into all of them would actually achieve."
Meanwhile, the Defence Department says it has video footage of the fatal Black Hawk helicopter accident.
The helicopter plunged into the sea off Fiji on Wednesday afternoon while trying to land on HMAS Kanimbla.
A closed circuit television above the flight deck on the Navy ship captured images of the crash, as well as all arrivals and departures.
That video will be examined by the air accident investigation team, before the Defence Department considers releasing it to the public.
The body of the pilot, Captain Mark Bingley, has been returned to his home town of Townsville overnight, while the search is continuing for missing soldier, Trooper Joshua Porter.
End:
I support the view of the ADF, the overall accident rate of of the Army per 100,000 hours flown is as good as the best, and although we can try extra hard and the ADF investigation may recommned changes (if any), the effort in a politically driven high level enquiry at the top; and on top of the current investigation system would tie up ADF resources which could be better used at the coal face enhance operational supervision, or whatever is needed when the facts are known,
Wot I am saying is: pollies go home and stop scoring points!
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Rob,
Well said, totally agree.
Sundance and V2,
Dear oh dear, what can I say? Perhaps you guys should ask some questions instead of making rather outlandish statements. Remember everything is a compromise, in terms of training, risk, cost and capability. Increasing training in one field invariably requires a reduction in another field. It appears this accident has validated the HUET training, not invalidated it – the training done is realistic enough, you don’t need to ‘crash’ the HUET.
Well said, totally agree.
Sundance and V2,
Dear oh dear, what can I say? Perhaps you guys should ask some questions instead of making rather outlandish statements. Remember everything is a compromise, in terms of training, risk, cost and capability. Increasing training in one field invariably requires a reduction in another field. It appears this accident has validated the HUET training, not invalidated it – the training done is realistic enough, you don’t need to ‘crash’ the HUET.
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Ogsplash,
I believe the H60 floats were never approved, and were therefore not ever installed on fleet aircraft. Even the vestigal mounts were removed, I think.
Regarding the unfortunate loss of good people while they practice for combat, I believe the public understands and agrees, but the press must sell the deoderant and cars that pay for the newsprint, so controversy must be stirred up. Just hold the line, it is a noble thing to serve in the military, and when someone dies in a mishap while doing exercises, it is still a sacrifice.
BTW, I had lunch once with the CO of Ft. Rucker, Don Parker, right after he had been interviewed by "60 Minutes". He was concerned that the TV show would not carry his quote that I remember to this day, "My soldiers are safer strapped in the back of a Black Hawk than they are in their cars on the weekend." They lost many times more young, aggressive, healthy people in off duty accidents than they did in night helicopter exercises, because young people are risk takers and the military takes extra effort to train that out of them.
The TV show did not carry that quote, naturally.
I believe the H60 floats were never approved, and were therefore not ever installed on fleet aircraft. Even the vestigal mounts were removed, I think.
Regarding the unfortunate loss of good people while they practice for combat, I believe the public understands and agrees, but the press must sell the deoderant and cars that pay for the newsprint, so controversy must be stirred up. Just hold the line, it is a noble thing to serve in the military, and when someone dies in a mishap while doing exercises, it is still a sacrifice.
BTW, I had lunch once with the CO of Ft. Rucker, Don Parker, right after he had been interviewed by "60 Minutes". He was concerned that the TV show would not carry his quote that I remember to this day, "My soldiers are safer strapped in the back of a Black Hawk than they are in their cars on the weekend." They lost many times more young, aggressive, healthy people in off duty accidents than they did in night helicopter exercises, because young people are risk takers and the military takes extra effort to train that out of them.
The TV show did not carry that quote, naturally.
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Bingas!
Not enough beers have been shared, especially at that chook drivers place. Just found out. Sorry dude for you and Mel and Bub.
Take it easy in the skies now.
B.C. and K.D.
Sundance back in yur box!
Not enough beers have been shared, especially at that chook drivers place. Just found out. Sorry dude for you and Mel and Bub.
Take it easy in the skies now.
B.C. and K.D.
Sundance back in yur box!
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Katter, a pollie? i don't think so.
not confusing the very noble charasmatic father (from whom the current one inherited the fed seat of Kennedy) with the pretending useless son are you Rob? Is Townsville even in the seat of Kennedy?
His dad, bless him, was I think minister for the army at one time, helped the family of a close mate of mine considerably when certain person was in a 'spot' of bother in vietnam.
His dad's brother, Bertie was very funny, a laughing very likeable rouge who liked a drink, did a bit of copper gouging, SP bookie that sort of thing.
His greatest claim to fame was driving off from the Kajabbi races one year with his partner in crime - bookie mate Bob Backash - and to the amusement of the late night bar revellers drove for some considerable time until stopping at a signpost to look for directions. The sign? it said - 2 Furlongs!
young Bob , none of that!
Me thinks he has woken up that Barnaby Joyce may knock him off as OZ's most dim pollie and has hence engaged his mouth.
There have been no adverse comments from pollies of substance that I have seen, other than some mention of condolence and praise from PM
not confusing the very noble charasmatic father (from whom the current one inherited the fed seat of Kennedy) with the pretending useless son are you Rob? Is Townsville even in the seat of Kennedy?
His dad, bless him, was I think minister for the army at one time, helped the family of a close mate of mine considerably when certain person was in a 'spot' of bother in vietnam.
His dad's brother, Bertie was very funny, a laughing very likeable rouge who liked a drink, did a bit of copper gouging, SP bookie that sort of thing.
His greatest claim to fame was driving off from the Kajabbi races one year with his partner in crime - bookie mate Bob Backash - and to the amusement of the late night bar revellers drove for some considerable time until stopping at a signpost to look for directions. The sign? it said - 2 Furlongs!
young Bob , none of that!
Me thinks he has woken up that Barnaby Joyce may knock him off as OZ's most dim pollie and has hence engaged his mouth.
There have been no adverse comments from pollies of substance that I have seen, other than some mention of condolence and praise from PM
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There's always one isn't there!
Griffin,
Take a breath mate. I simply described the HUET dunker I have seen for the tiger and suggested that it's is absolutely in no way anything like a real landing on water incident. Nothing critical about the ADF or army pilots or the procurement contractor who wrote the tender or the lady who licked the envelope to put it into the mail to the winning supplier so settle down.
If that is an "outlandish statement" in your world then I suggest that you get out of the house more and meet some new friends.
Take a breath mate. I simply described the HUET dunker I have seen for the tiger and suggested that it's is absolutely in no way anything like a real landing on water incident. Nothing critical about the ADF or army pilots or the procurement contractor who wrote the tender or the lady who licked the envelope to put it into the mail to the winning supplier so settle down.
If that is an "outlandish statement" in your world then I suggest that you get out of the house more and meet some new friends.
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Nick, the SH-60s I flew at HSL40 in the late 80s had them. Then the standoffs came and something comes to mind about removing them in the end to put something 'useful' on like guns, missiles and the like.....The RAN S70B2s have definately retained them although in this day and age, some conformal units along the fuselage would be nice to eliminate the possible hinderance of the guys in the front. While I'm on a shopping spree, how about some externally mounted ejectable life rafts?
The floats were never intended to keep the aircraft afloat but were to give the crew more time to get out. HEEDS I think has saved many aircrew in the USN and the RAN guys train in the HUET with the HEEDS...amazing to see how people relax when they know they have a few sucks of air there if they need it. I don't know if the Army guys train with the HEEDS or carry them (mad if they didn't).
The floats were never intended to keep the aircraft afloat but were to give the crew more time to get out. HEEDS I think has saved many aircrew in the USN and the RAN guys train in the HUET with the HEEDS...amazing to see how people relax when they know they have a few sucks of air there if they need it. I don't know if the Army guys train with the HEEDS or carry them (mad if they didn't).
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Baffler,
Did I read correct ? Some do and some don't carry HEEDS, Military Red tape etc.
You are joking aren't you. Is is either a requirement or not, surely.
If it is a requirement then all crew should carry it and be trained in it's use. If not, no carry. The reason is because the training in the use of HEEDS is vital, it can be far worse to attempt to use it if you haven't trained with it, (as silly as that seems).
Before anyone starts jumping up and down , I do have many years of experience with HUET, HEEDS, and all of the training , red tape, politics etc in Australia.
Sorry to get off topic, rant over,
Somebody said it before, there but for the grace of God.................
Never a more true statement. Sincere condolences to the family and his Squadron mates, I am sure he will be missed.
Did I read correct ? Some do and some don't carry HEEDS, Military Red tape etc.
You are joking aren't you. Is is either a requirement or not, surely.
If it is a requirement then all crew should carry it and be trained in it's use. If not, no carry. The reason is because the training in the use of HEEDS is vital, it can be far worse to attempt to use it if you haven't trained with it, (as silly as that seems).
Before anyone starts jumping up and down , I do have many years of experience with HUET, HEEDS, and all of the training , red tape, politics etc in Australia.
Sorry to get off topic, rant over,
Somebody said it before, there but for the grace of God.................
Never a more true statement. Sincere condolences to the family and his Squadron mates, I am sure he will be missed.
Og and Nick,
The USN Seahawks had plumbing and floats installed in B and F model seahawks until the mid 90's. From the time I started they were plumbed for helium but, because there were no facilities on ships to carry helium, they were serviced with Nitrogen. End result? Inflation times varied from 30-70 seconds making them, essentially, useless (by the time they inflated, aircraft on descent rapidly in the ocean). There was a move in the early 90's to replumb the float system for Nitrogen (actually happened in some squadrons) but ultimately the decomissioned the whole lot because they felt it was a heavy burden to keep the systems serviceable in light of the very few aircraft saved by the system.
Thats the way I remember it (first hand).
Not much consolation to our Army brethren, but my two cents worth.
All the best gentlemen.
HP
Og...gidday!
The USN Seahawks had plumbing and floats installed in B and F model seahawks until the mid 90's. From the time I started they were plumbed for helium but, because there were no facilities on ships to carry helium, they were serviced with Nitrogen. End result? Inflation times varied from 30-70 seconds making them, essentially, useless (by the time they inflated, aircraft on descent rapidly in the ocean). There was a move in the early 90's to replumb the float system for Nitrogen (actually happened in some squadrons) but ultimately the decomissioned the whole lot because they felt it was a heavy burden to keep the systems serviceable in light of the very few aircraft saved by the system.
Thats the way I remember it (first hand).
Not much consolation to our Army brethren, but my two cents worth.
All the best gentlemen.
HP
Og...gidday!
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"any info available on when the service will be held
(need to arrange flights from vic)"
http://www.abc.net.au/news/australia...2/s1805214.htm
friday townsville, as per above news clip.
(need to arrange flights from vic)"
http://www.abc.net.au/news/australia...2/s1805214.htm
friday townsville, as per above news clip.
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I really think some of you people should go and have a look at the military aircrew forum, in particular the Nimrod crash forum, to see how this sort of event should be handled.
Bingas farewell, so sad
Buck you get well soon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bingas farewell, so sad
Buck you get well soon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!