PPLs playing CPLs
The Original Whirly
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VeeAny,
Thank you for that link; I've printed the document out for future reference.
However, I fail to see how free flying equals "valuable consideration" or "provision of goods and services".
Look at it from the point of view of someone who doesn't want to fly. If, after a long week of instructing, you said to me, "You can fly my R22 from one end of the country to the other for free" I'd tell you where to put that suggestion. But if I hadn't flown for six months, I'd think it a really great idea. So, how come? It's either valuable consideration or it isn't; you can't have its worth depending on how the receipient feels about it. And nowhere in that document does it even suggest that free flying in and of itself is valuable consideration.
You can't put your own interpretation on the rules just because you don't like the way things are.
Thank you for that link; I've printed the document out for future reference.
However, I fail to see how free flying equals "valuable consideration" or "provision of goods and services".
Look at it from the point of view of someone who doesn't want to fly. If, after a long week of instructing, you said to me, "You can fly my R22 from one end of the country to the other for free" I'd tell you where to put that suggestion. But if I hadn't flown for six months, I'd think it a really great idea. So, how come? It's either valuable consideration or it isn't; you can't have its worth depending on how the receipient feels about it. And nowhere in that document does it even suggest that free flying in and of itself is valuable consideration.
You can't put your own interpretation on the rules just because you don't like the way things are.
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It's remains very simple if you are asked to fly (whether free or for renumeration) it's a job offer. You are asked to do a JOB. Means AERIAL WORK. PPL's are NOT allowed to do aerial work. There are simply not even rules to be bend, it can't be done, it's wrong in every way.
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in AOPAPilot Magazine (US) there is a feature where readers send in questions and they are answered by a group of aviation experts (lawyers, mechs, FIs, etc.). the FAA rules and CAA/JAA are very similar when it comes to this type of question. a man asked about ferrying aircraft for free to build time. the lawyer said big no-no. and someone raised the issue of as350 time being valuable and r22 time being "socks for christmas." doesn't matter why you do it, cause if you go for another rating in the future, that r22 time is gonna be part of your total PIC time, which will cut training costs (read: REWARD you).
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I disagree with the controller and agree with MSP
free flying must come under the banner of "hire or reward, promised, implied or given"
we need a lawyer to give us the official word on this.
I know specific examples of people out there who are definitely doing illegal charter on an ongoing basis, but can I prove it ? NO
regards
CF
free flying must come under the banner of "hire or reward, promised, implied or given"
we need a lawyer to give us the official word on this.
I know specific examples of people out there who are definitely doing illegal charter on an ongoing basis, but can I prove it ? NO
regards
CF
Whirly
I think we are in agreement (in some respects at least), but coming at it from differing ends.
You are quite correct, it cannot depend on how the individual feels.
I think the issue is, is the 'free flyiing' in return for something else, if it is it's illegal (you might disagree with this one).
I always try to 'give away' any dead legs I have to hour builders I know, I don't believe this is illegal as they are not expected to do anything for it. They fly (if type rated), the aircraft gets where it needs to be. I don't believe this can be misconstrued as there was never any intention to charge for it. However they have had the benefit of a free hour or two.
Hillerbee makes a valid point, which I'd never thought of
If the aircraft needs you to get it from A to B and no one else can do it, it is work. If it was going anyway and you get to fly it is it work ?
I also believe that, with some creative accounting 'the valuable consideration' can (and will) usually be lost by some training companies. I suppose that it then comes down to an argument over whether a PPL holder should be expected to pay for any flight they do. I do not believe there is a concrete answer to that.
Did anyone mention corporate yet ? Who owns it, who pays who ? (Too much like being at work)
In some respects one of the more educational debates we've had for sometime.
V.
I think we are in agreement (in some respects at least), but coming at it from differing ends.
You are quite correct, it cannot depend on how the individual feels.
I think the issue is, is the 'free flyiing' in return for something else, if it is it's illegal (you might disagree with this one).
I always try to 'give away' any dead legs I have to hour builders I know, I don't believe this is illegal as they are not expected to do anything for it. They fly (if type rated), the aircraft gets where it needs to be. I don't believe this can be misconstrued as there was never any intention to charge for it. However they have had the benefit of a free hour or two.
Hillerbee makes a valid point, which I'd never thought of
It's remains very simple if you are asked to fly (whether free or for renumeration) it's a job offer. You are asked to do a JOB. Means AERIAL WORK. PPL's are NOT allowed to do aerial work. There are simply not even rules to be bend, it can't be done, it's wrong in every way.
I also believe that, with some creative accounting 'the valuable consideration' can (and will) usually be lost by some training companies. I suppose that it then comes down to an argument over whether a PPL holder should be expected to pay for any flight they do. I do not believe there is a concrete answer to that.
Did anyone mention corporate yet ? Who owns it, who pays who ? (Too much like being at work)
In some respects one of the more educational debates we've had for sometime.
V.
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so...if ferry flights are 'reward' because they give you PIC time - but... what if you dont need PIC time, say you have tons of hours - then its not 'reward' is it?
free flying cannot be considered 'reward', because it depends on the individuals circumstances.
if an owner said "you can fly my helicopter and i'll give you a slap in the face too", then the slap obviously isnt 'reward', unless the pilot likes slap in the faces, then it is 'reward'
see my point?
free flying cannot be considered 'reward', because it depends on the individuals circumstances.
if an owner said "you can fly my helicopter and i'll give you a slap in the face too", then the slap obviously isnt 'reward', unless the pilot likes slap in the faces, then it is 'reward'
see my point?
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Hypothetical scenario.
I am a PPL. A flying school aircraft has been away for a 100hr service. I'm sitting around like the hangar cat. Everyone else is busy. If I am asked if I would be willing to collect the aircraft, is that aerial work?
However if I offer to help out by collecting the aircraft does that make a difference?
I am a PPL. A flying school aircraft has been away for a 100hr service. I'm sitting around like the hangar cat. Everyone else is busy. If I am asked if I would be willing to collect the aircraft, is that aerial work?
However if I offer to help out by collecting the aircraft does that make a difference?
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There are boundaries, which a PPL shouldn't cross, and as I said previously there is always a minority who do, that's life and you will never stop it.
When one decides to step up the next wrung of the ladder to Commercial Pilot you must assume it's to earn money out of the same and so you enter a Commercial world. That's fine you only have your piers to compete against and good luck to you.
However back in the private world where people like me just fly purely for pleasure and under no pressure whatsoever if any of us get a chance of free flying (and I am not talking about ferrying passengers/charter or wilfully abusing the system) we will take it.
So for all you CPs that have spent thousands of pounds, endless hrs of studying for a few hrs flying on said course to further your careers great, nothing wrong with that we need you, as I said it was your choice.
My choice however was to spend few pounds with just enough studying, for thousands of hours of flying.
With almost 30 years of it (first lesson 3rd Jan 1977) I have a wealth of experience on many types which I have no problem in passing on my experience to lessor mortals. Be it in my living room or sat in as safety pilot its my way of giving something back to the system for being in a privileged position to have been able to own & fly choppers in the first place
and lets face it we are all privileged to be able to fly.
Oh and just in case you were wondering I have never ever requested nor received a penny for my efforts.
When one decides to step up the next wrung of the ladder to Commercial Pilot you must assume it's to earn money out of the same and so you enter a Commercial world. That's fine you only have your piers to compete against and good luck to you.
However back in the private world where people like me just fly purely for pleasure and under no pressure whatsoever if any of us get a chance of free flying (and I am not talking about ferrying passengers/charter or wilfully abusing the system) we will take it.
So for all you CPs that have spent thousands of pounds, endless hrs of studying for a few hrs flying on said course to further your careers great, nothing wrong with that we need you, as I said it was your choice.
My choice however was to spend few pounds with just enough studying, for thousands of hours of flying.
With almost 30 years of it (first lesson 3rd Jan 1977) I have a wealth of experience on many types which I have no problem in passing on my experience to lessor mortals. Be it in my living room or sat in as safety pilot its my way of giving something back to the system for being in a privileged position to have been able to own & fly choppers in the first place
and lets face it we are all privileged to be able to fly.Oh and just in case you were wondering I have never ever requested nor received a penny for my efforts.
Better red than ...
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Under the FAA system, for a flight to be considered private, the pilot must pay at least a pro-rata share of the cost of the flight. So free flying (ferry etc) could be considered as renumeration... Is there a similar rule in JAA land?
Avoid imitations
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Piers? Wasn't he the bloke on that agony aunts thread? 
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So it's simple and straightforward, according to some?
Let's see.
Some quotes from the discussion so far:
"for hire or reward". That says it all.”
All what?
And where does it say “for hire and reward”?
“a PPL can only take passengers when he intended the flight anyway.”
Where does it say that?
“It's quite simple and a lot of you have already made the point. The PPL cannot fly for hire or reward, it is that simple.”
Simple?
Where does it say hire and reward?
“if they are not paying a pro-rata share of the cost of the flight, then it is illegal.”
So, if a helicopter owner allows a PPL accompanying him to fly his helicopter free of charge, the PPL is breaking the law?
“any PPL flying must be either , a cost sharing flight or self funded.”
So, if a generous helicopter owner allows a PPL to borrow his helicopter free of charge, the PPL is breaking the law?
“No grey area ....”
People seem to have very different views about what's black and what's white.
“suggest you look up the regs.....quite straight-forward I'm glad to say when it comes to classifications of private/commercial flight.”
It may be straight-forward (to some), but is it a complete answer to the question here?
“Have these guys never heard of LASORS? It's online and it's free, so no excuse.”
So help them by telling them where in LASORS they can find the answer.
“Whirly (and others with doubts)”
Whirly (and others who disagree with me)?
“free flying must come under the banner of "hire or reward, promised, implied or given"
Where can people find the ‘hire and reward’ banner?
“If the aircraft needs you to get it from A to B and no one else can do it, it is work.”
Is that the test?
That no one else can do it?
“debate the legal semantics of LASORS.....”
Where do we find the answer in LASORS?
Heliport
I suggest ignoring distractions by 'Out of Date'.
Responding to trolls only encourages them.
Let's see.
Some quotes from the discussion so far:
"for hire or reward". That says it all.”
All what?
And where does it say “for hire and reward”?
“a PPL can only take passengers when he intended the flight anyway.”
Where does it say that?
“It's quite simple and a lot of you have already made the point. The PPL cannot fly for hire or reward, it is that simple.”
Simple?
Where does it say hire and reward?
“if they are not paying a pro-rata share of the cost of the flight, then it is illegal.”
So, if a helicopter owner allows a PPL accompanying him to fly his helicopter free of charge, the PPL is breaking the law?
“any PPL flying must be either , a cost sharing flight or self funded.”
So, if a generous helicopter owner allows a PPL to borrow his helicopter free of charge, the PPL is breaking the law?
“No grey area ....”
People seem to have very different views about what's black and what's white.
“suggest you look up the regs.....quite straight-forward I'm glad to say when it comes to classifications of private/commercial flight.”
It may be straight-forward (to some), but is it a complete answer to the question here?
“Have these guys never heard of LASORS? It's online and it's free, so no excuse.”
So help them by telling them where in LASORS they can find the answer.
“Whirly (and others with doubts)”
Whirly (and others who disagree with me)?
“free flying must come under the banner of "hire or reward, promised, implied or given"
Where can people find the ‘hire and reward’ banner?
“If the aircraft needs you to get it from A to B and no one else can do it, it is work.”
Is that the test?
That no one else can do it?
“debate the legal semantics of LASORS.....”
Where do we find the answer in LASORS?
Heliport
I suggest ignoring distractions by 'Out of Date'.
Responding to trolls only encourages them.
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i thought of another example. "flying incidental to other business." if my friend says he wants his aircraft brought from A to B and he'll give me $100 to arrange it, i have a multitude of options. i can arrange to have it trucked, i can hire a CPL, or i, with my hypothetical PPL, can fly it there. i'm not being paid specifically to fly it, i'm being paid to arrange for the transportation of a piece of metal. legal, or not?
i'd say illegal, but technically is it?
i'd say illegal, but technically is it?
Join Date: Nov 2002
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I don’t think many ppl holders will ever turn down the opportunity to be paid to fly, I have even heard of PPls approaching owners in neatly ironed shirts with epaulettes, offering to do it for cheaper then the CPLs that they employ, sadly its rampant.
The authorities don’t seem to care, and some owners don’t seem to care either, why would the pilot bother to care what license he holds if he is getting paid?
It all seems ok to the new owner, until something goes wrong or the weather turns bad, and there are plenty of cases were PPls playing CPL fly into the side of a mountain!
http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/8253-0.pdf
Unfortunately it seems the only people who can stop it are the CPL pilots themselves, by adopting the Taxi driver approach, sad but true!
The authorities don’t seem to care, and some owners don’t seem to care either, why would the pilot bother to care what license he holds if he is getting paid?
It all seems ok to the new owner, until something goes wrong or the weather turns bad, and there are plenty of cases were PPls playing CPL fly into the side of a mountain!
http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/8253-0.pdf
Unfortunately it seems the only people who can stop it are the CPL pilots themselves, by adopting the Taxi driver approach, sad but true!
Join Date: Sep 2006
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A simple poll...
I know of one (prosecuted) case where a PPL holder actually flew paying passengers in the company that he owned - and got nailed. This is BAD, and nailing is GOOD.
I, for my part, own a military flight overall and an Alpha helmet. Sometimes when I fly - perhaps a ferry flight where I pay the costs surrounding the venture but not the owner of the helicopter - I will use this "costume" because it offers a good noise environment and fire protection along with the fact that I can bump my head against the side of the cabin with no hazard.
When I re-fuel and meet one of you hard-headed types
, would you consider me as posing as one of you? And I'm not talking about passengers here.Regardless what some say, this is a very grey area. I have difficulties seing authorities deciding what is rewarding to me, and I have difficulties seing even possibilities of defining lines to cross or not to cross.
I will have to resort to my own judgement - both in flying the thing and in handling the situations surrounding it. I CANNOT accept payment for anything, and I need to share costs with my friends or their friend when they come along. Just as I am sharing the joy if I bring a non-pilot (or pilor for that matter) friend along for a ferry flight that I perform without pay.
That said, anyone posing as a CPL with PPL papers SHOULD be nailed. Forums like this one have the good quality of inspiring the debate, so maybe we will see improvement eventually (if need be).
So, back to the poll...
I know of the case I mentioned, and know of people breaking other rules as well:
- Flying paying passengers with CPL(H) but without AOC
- Flying passengers for pay at night over a city area in a single engined helicopter (CPL(H) in place)
- Flying passengers for pay with CPL, on a type that is in the AOC but with an individual aircraft that is not in itselt the AOC
Which is worse?
Oh, and I do agree that this is a very interesting and enlightning (sometimes discuraging) discussion). Keep it coming!
All the best for now!
/perfrej (PPL(H) for ten years)
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Here's one for you....
I arrive one day at a summer fete in the UK. An R44 is doing "trips" 3 pax at a time, 20 minute circuits. The landing area is tight and shrouded by trees. There are hundreds of children and adult spectators and to fly to the landing site requires overflying a fairground (again fully populated with funseekers)
On his break I ask the pilot what his qualifications are. "I'm a PPL(H) and the wife is the one in the high vis doing the loading/offloading. Its my helicopter. Everything is donated to charity, I pay for everything to do with the flying and the charity gets all the money for the flight"
Where does this stand legally? I take it the fact he makes a loss on the day (if he does) means that he is within the law? He wore 3 gold bands on his shirt - so not many would question his experience or ability. However in the case of airmanship, this pilot clearly isn't as experienced as a CPL and if he got into difficulties there could be many lives at risk?
I arrive one day at a summer fete in the UK. An R44 is doing "trips" 3 pax at a time, 20 minute circuits. The landing area is tight and shrouded by trees. There are hundreds of children and adult spectators and to fly to the landing site requires overflying a fairground (again fully populated with funseekers)
On his break I ask the pilot what his qualifications are. "I'm a PPL(H) and the wife is the one in the high vis doing the loading/offloading. Its my helicopter. Everything is donated to charity, I pay for everything to do with the flying and the charity gets all the money for the flight"
Where does this stand legally? I take it the fact he makes a loss on the day (if he does) means that he is within the law? He wore 3 gold bands on his shirt - so not many would question his experience or ability. However in the case of airmanship, this pilot clearly isn't as experienced as a CPL and if he got into difficulties there could be many lives at risk?