PPLs playing CPLs
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PPLs playing CPLs
Hi all,
I feel the need to address what seems to be a growing problem in our industry.Gone are the days when a PPL would be begging for ferry flights to build hours towards the CPL ticket.It now seems the rules and regs that we all know are just there for decoration,it seems now the new 'CPL' is the PPL. An ever increasing amount of these cowboys are out there in the field actively seeking work on a daily basis without any intention of ever sitting the CPL exams and it seems that they have an abundance of work due to private owners trying to offset the cost of running their machines.The authorities seemingly ignore what is going on and this is just bad news all round for an industry already under the microscope by the public and the media.Is anybody going to do anything to stop this?
I feel the need to address what seems to be a growing problem in our industry.Gone are the days when a PPL would be begging for ferry flights to build hours towards the CPL ticket.It now seems the rules and regs that we all know are just there for decoration,it seems now the new 'CPL' is the PPL. An ever increasing amount of these cowboys are out there in the field actively seeking work on a daily basis without any intention of ever sitting the CPL exams and it seems that they have an abundance of work due to private owners trying to offset the cost of running their machines.The authorities seemingly ignore what is going on and this is just bad news all round for an industry already under the microscope by the public and the media.Is anybody going to do anything to stop this?
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I would agree with mr aft cyclic that this is an issue.
now there are lots of clever people around who know the law a lot better than me
but there seems to be several people around who have a very loose idea of what constitutes a "private flight" which to me sounds like a charter.
it may start with an owner asking a "mate" (who may be an PPL instructor operating under grandfather rights or who may just be a regular PPL with a few hours) to come along with him in his own aircraft to some event and to fly the owner back in the evening as he will be "p***ed by this point.
before you know it the owner is asking him to do little jobs for him, pick this person up here or that person up there and fly them to wherever and of course they will pay them either in free flying the promise of further free flying or just in cash.
and this can develop into them basically being a ppl charter pilot, the passengers may not be actually handing over cash but there is no difference from a charter.
all of this undermines the point of getting the CPL and leads to a situation which we have got now where there are very few proper jobs on single engine aircraft (instructors excepted) because there is no money in it.
on top of this we have got extreme examples, I heard a story of someone who was allegedly caught at battersea walking out his passengers to the aircraft to do the charter dressed in the white shirt/4 bars, who turned out to be PPL who didnt even have a valid LPC on the aircraft he was about to fly.
I think there is lot more "grey charter" around than most of us realise.
regards
CF
now there are lots of clever people around who know the law a lot better than me
but there seems to be several people around who have a very loose idea of what constitutes a "private flight" which to me sounds like a charter.
it may start with an owner asking a "mate" (who may be an PPL instructor operating under grandfather rights or who may just be a regular PPL with a few hours) to come along with him in his own aircraft to some event and to fly the owner back in the evening as he will be "p***ed by this point.
before you know it the owner is asking him to do little jobs for him, pick this person up here or that person up there and fly them to wherever and of course they will pay them either in free flying the promise of further free flying or just in cash.
and this can develop into them basically being a ppl charter pilot, the passengers may not be actually handing over cash but there is no difference from a charter.
all of this undermines the point of getting the CPL and leads to a situation which we have got now where there are very few proper jobs on single engine aircraft (instructors excepted) because there is no money in it.
on top of this we have got extreme examples, I heard a story of someone who was allegedly caught at battersea walking out his passengers to the aircraft to do the charter dressed in the white shirt/4 bars, who turned out to be PPL who didnt even have a valid LPC on the aircraft he was about to fly.
I think there is lot more "grey charter" around than most of us realise.
regards
CF
Join Date: Nov 2002
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Yes, it's happening out there - and in the fixed wing world too. Watch who turns up at the next race meeting with 4 stripes in an R44/B206, ferrying the owner's mates to and from. Wedding charters are another favourite for the PPL.
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You mean I don't need to spend all that money on a CPL?? I wouldn't worry about any JAA authority. They'll sympathise with you and even come out with a few really good OTT regs post impact to show the public that they're doing they're jobs but guaranteed they're not in the prevention better than the cure dept.I say forget all licenses and lets go back to Barnstorming and let mother nature sort it out
Seriously, we all know who's at what in our own neck of the woods and pretty sure that the Authorities know too but who's going to act???????
try getting in your motor tonight,pop down to your local taxi rank and start hopping rides. See how long you get away with that one. Taxi drivers won't give you a tut tut and whinge to council. It'll be lamppost and hung by your seatbelts and more power to them.
That's my rant for tonite
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As a professional pilot.... you see some unprofessional / unsafe flying.
So do you deal with it in whatever might be an 'appropriate' manner or do you just ignore it and pretend you never saw it?
Ask yourself the question. Are you a just pilot or a professional?
If PPLs bend a rule then "advise" them if that seems appropriate to you. If they continue to break rules then they are risking the insurance cover which affects their passengers and maybe 3rd parties. Consequently they are flying with the very same kind of disregard and negligence to passengers as a pilot under the influence of drugs.
If you genuinely know of improper use of a PPL (rather than heresay stories) then please do something about it or you could be considered complicit.
So do you deal with it in whatever might be an 'appropriate' manner or do you just ignore it and pretend you never saw it?
Ask yourself the question. Are you a just pilot or a professional?
If PPLs bend a rule then "advise" them if that seems appropriate to you. If they continue to break rules then they are risking the insurance cover which affects their passengers and maybe 3rd parties. Consequently they are flying with the very same kind of disregard and negligence to passengers as a pilot under the influence of drugs.
If you genuinely know of improper use of a PPL (rather than heresay stories) then please do something about it or you could be considered complicit.
The Original Whirly
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before you know it the owner is asking him to do little jobs for him, pick this person up here or that person up there and fly them to wherever and of course they will pay them either in free flying the promise of further free flying or just in cash.
If I'm wrong about this, please let me know - but I can't see where this is illegal.
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whirlybird,
my basic understanding is that a PPL cannot fly "for hire or reward, promised, implied or given"
where a PPL goes from point A, picks up the owners associates at point B (owner not on board) flies them to point C. waits around all day, takes them back to point B in the evening, then returns to point A, now that sounds and looks like a charter
free flying or the promise of free flying or actual cash all seem to me to be "hire or reward"
this is where we need a lawyer !
regards
CF
my basic understanding is that a PPL cannot fly "for hire or reward, promised, implied or given"
where a PPL goes from point A, picks up the owners associates at point B (owner not on board) flies them to point C. waits around all day, takes them back to point B in the evening, then returns to point A, now that sounds and looks like a charter
free flying or the promise of free flying or actual cash all seem to me to be "hire or reward"
this is where we need a lawyer !
regards
CF
Last edited by Camp Freddie; 26th Nov 2006 at 14:43.
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Hang em high!
This subject has been covered many times in many places. People have, and will continue to fly illegally, as long as they continue to get away with it. I know a few people who do this but if they are being paid cash in hand, it's difficult to prove.
If a crash were to happen, and a survivor admitted they were paying the PPL pilot, then you might have a case. Especially as any decent insurance company would refuse to pay out, and rightly so.
Corporate flying was always a grey area with one guy I heard about flying a A109 on a PPL with 200hours TT. He only picked customers up for his boss. He wasn't paid as a pilot. Not breaking the law, but for those of us who bothered to get a CPL/ATPL/IR etc, it is annoying.
He did go on to get a CPL though!
I don't know how you would go about grassing these people up and getting satisfaction. Ramp checks? A CAA hotline? Any thoughts?
If a crash were to happen, and a survivor admitted they were paying the PPL pilot, then you might have a case. Especially as any decent insurance company would refuse to pay out, and rightly so.
Corporate flying was always a grey area with one guy I heard about flying a A109 on a PPL with 200hours TT. He only picked customers up for his boss. He wasn't paid as a pilot. Not breaking the law, but for those of us who bothered to get a CPL/ATPL/IR etc, it is annoying.
He did go on to get a CPL though! I don't know how you would go about grassing these people up and getting satisfaction. Ramp checks? A CAA hotline? Any thoughts?
The Veloceraptor of Lounge Lizards
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I've ranted on this subject several times on this forum over the last few years.
I am heartily sick of watching the AOC fees disappear to the authority, completing the quarterly returns, keeping up with the paperwork and training, sitting through the annual inspections and then watching some fool turn up at one of the major events with "guests" on board and the authority doing f all.
Don't these people realise that their insurance is probably null and void due to their actions? Who will the pax or their famillies go after in court after an accident?
The blatant abuse of the system by a few fools results in tighter legislation for those of us who do go by the book. In this company we now operate all flights requested by owners to Public Transport criteria, it causes some pain, but the pilots know the PT rules and it saves potential problems when private one day and PT the next.
Does anyone know the outcome of the incident at Ascot this year involving a foreign reg AC, the CAA and "guests" who were waiting for an invoice. I'll bet B all.
If these people want to play in our toyshop maybe we should adopt the taxi driver approach as described by noblades.
Rant over
I am heartily sick of watching the AOC fees disappear to the authority, completing the quarterly returns, keeping up with the paperwork and training, sitting through the annual inspections and then watching some fool turn up at one of the major events with "guests" on board and the authority doing f
all.Don't these people realise that their insurance is probably null and void due to their actions? Who will the pax or their famillies go after in court after an accident?
The blatant abuse of the system by a few fools results in tighter legislation for those of us who do go by the book. In this company we now operate all flights requested by owners to Public Transport criteria, it causes some pain, but the pilots know the PT rules and it saves potential problems when private one day and PT the next.
Does anyone know the outcome of the incident at Ascot this year involving a foreign reg AC, the CAA and "guests" who were waiting for an invoice. I'll bet B
all.If these people want to play in our toyshop maybe we should adopt the taxi driver approach as described by noblades.
Rant over
Last edited by verticalhold; 26th Nov 2006 at 09:37. Reason: Poor punctuation due to anger!!!
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meaning that if I let you fly my helicopter for the day, (for instance say free B206 turbine time to a low timer) I am saving £250+/day in pilot costs and my passengers get to where they need to be. Isn't the pilot getting something out of this deal? You bet he is, he is getting 206 time free instead of forking out £500+/hr for the a/c use.!!! I would call this reward.
Why can't we have a name and shame section on the web where you can post info on people who break the rules?
ps isn't the annual AOC cost due to jump even higher. Even more reason to get rid of illegal flyers.
Why can't we have a name and shame section on the web where you can post info on people who break the rules?
ps isn't the annual AOC cost due to jump even higher. Even more reason to get rid of illegal flyers.
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It's my understanding that a PPL can only take passengers when he intended the flight anyway. The passengers cannot ask the PPL to go somewhere. However when was the last time someone (rampcheck) actually asked you for your licence.
We as professional pilots should also have a way of turning those people in (anonymous preferably). Waiting for accidents to happen is not the way forward, it gives a bad reputation to general aviation and will restrict us even more.
We as professional pilots should also have a way of turning those people in (anonymous preferably). Waiting for accidents to happen is not the way forward, it gives a bad reputation to general aviation and will restrict us even more.
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If they were up for it & capable of doing it there can't be many pilots out there who would refuse the chance of any free flying. The only pilot who would refuse is the one who wants payment for such and is told there is none.
Of course as with any venture there are the minority who blatantly flout the law and some times the law eventually catches up with them. However in the ideal world every pilot would like a friend with a chopper to ask them if they wouldn't mind picking/dropping someone up/off, delivering the ship for Mtc or vice versa or just taking someone out for a jolly on their behalf and why not.
Why on earth would an owner pay these film star wages for a CPL pilot to have their ship flown from A to B when one of their friends (or any other capable pilot) would do it for free.
Life would be so much simpler if no money exchanged hands for all these good deeds instead of just sour grapes cos another pilot has had the opportunity of some free flying and you haven't.
If anybody wants to do a CPL, I wish them well, if they don't, I also wish them well but there shouldn't be a need to bitch about someone who is capable of doing the same thing that your capable of doing just because they haven't got a CPL.
It is your choice to invest in more training (nobody forced you) just like it is his or hers to accept there current level of experience.
Lets be honest at the end of the day it's just another flight and who gives a toss.
It does't come very often so if it's within your capability grab any free flying you can that's what I say.
Of course as with any venture there are the minority who blatantly flout the law and some times the law eventually catches up with them. However in the ideal world every pilot would like a friend with a chopper to ask them if they wouldn't mind picking/dropping someone up/off, delivering the ship for Mtc or vice versa or just taking someone out for a jolly on their behalf and why not.
Why on earth would an owner pay these film star wages for a CPL pilot to have their ship flown from A to B when one of their friends (or any other capable pilot) would do it for free.
Life would be so much simpler if no money exchanged hands for all these good deeds instead of just sour grapes cos another pilot has had the opportunity of some free flying and you haven't.
If anybody wants to do a CPL, I wish them well, if they don't, I also wish them well but there shouldn't be a need to bitch about someone who is capable of doing the same thing that your capable of doing just because they haven't got a CPL.
It is your choice to invest in more training (nobody forced you) just like it is his or hers to accept there current level of experience.
Lets be honest at the end of the day it's just another flight and who gives a toss.
It does't come very often so if it's within your capability grab any free flying you can that's what I say.
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Out of date,
So you're saying we (CPL's) are all stupid, we just should fly for free as PPL's. We are professional pilots and try to make a living flying. This has taken a lot of hard work and investment in ourselfs, either civil or military. You can't even compare the level of a PPL with CPL. I assume you're a PPL or even a student. Please get real.
So you're saying we (CPL's) are all stupid, we just should fly for free as PPL's. We are professional pilots and try to make a living flying. This has taken a lot of hard work and investment in ourselfs, either civil or military. You can't even compare the level of a PPL with CPL. I assume you're a PPL or even a student. Please get real.
