Pilots who went on strike let go by PHI
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On this forum you will encounter attempts at union busting from silly people. Either they have a personal agenda, or they are paid by the management of PHI. Any and all negative comments about the strike action are as disloyal as going AWOL during a fire fight.
Keep in mind the following: The pilots voted in favor of strike action. The negotiations broke down following 2,5 years of negotiations.
Keep in mind the following: The pilots voted in favor of strike action. The negotiations broke down following 2,5 years of negotiations.
There are good people on both sides of the issue - and unfortunately for you, most respect the right of inviduals to have differning opinions.
FYI - the strike vote came with the understanding that "we need to demonstrate how strong our resolve is, we will never need it and we won't ever have to strike" from the 108 leadership.
Then, when the the best, last and final offer was presented, the pilots were not provided the opportunity vote because our leadership did not like the asnwers from the company on specific issues they had promised the membership they would resolve.
Finally, when the strike was called, its was amazing that certain individuals went out on sick leave right b/f the actual strike and to this day receive a pay check while advocating the strike by those that will not recieve a dime from PHI.
Lots of issues - lots of opinions and lots of good folks have been hurt on both sides.
Attitudes like yours do more to foster the anti union perspective about as much better than anything management can do or say.
By the way - I am anti union with a personal agenda. But that is my right, just as it is yours to be pro uion. No more, no less.
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Chc&proud, any pilot performing for PHI will for the rest of his career be branded as a Strike Breaker or a SCAB, but only by uncompromising schoolyard bullies such as yourself.
Alright, back to a spirited yet cordial debate on the issues.
Helonorth, to answer your question: unless you want to become a party to this dispute you may want to consider some of the other GOM companies, all of whom would be happy to interview you once you meet the minimums.
Alright, back to a spirited yet cordial debate on the issues.
Helonorth, to answer your question: unless you want to become a party to this dispute you may want to consider some of the other GOM companies, all of whom would be happy to interview you once you meet the minimums.
Last edited by Revolutionary; 16th Oct 2006 at 03:21.
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Helonorth, to answer your question: unless you want to become a party to this dispute you may want to consider some of the other GOM companies, all of whom would be happy to interview you once you meet the minimums.
Helonorth, if I was in your shoes, I would definately go with another operator. This legal action is beeing closely followed from all corners of the world, and having PHI on your resume, as a scab, might hinder your career later on. Please don't take that chance, it's not worth it when there are other options.
Strike and legal actions are supposed to be a tool that helps find a settlement to the negotiation process, and scabbing gives it an unwanted spin for both sides. If there were no scabs, the deal would probably have been closed three weeks ago to the benefit of all parts involved.
Last edited by northseaspray; 16th Oct 2006 at 09:54. Reason: editorial
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Helonorth, if I was in your shoes, I would definately go with another operator. This legal action is beeing closely followed from all corners of the world, and having PHI on your resume, as a scab, might hinder your career later on. Please don't take that chance, it's not worth it when there are other options.
Strike and legal actions are supposed to be a tool that helps find a settlement to the negotiation process, and scabbing gives it an unwanted spin for both sides. If there were no scabs, the deal would probably have been closed three weeks ago to the benefit of all parts involved.
Strike and legal actions are supposed to be a tool that helps find a settlement to the negotiation process, and scabbing gives it an unwanted spin for both sides. If there were no scabs, the deal would probably have been closed three weeks ago to the benefit of all parts involved.
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In light of seriousness of the situation, it is not on my agenda to chit chat in a cordial manner on issues that threatening good colleagues and friends at PHI. Jobs, liveliyhoods and careers of good people are at stake.
This thread in my opinion deserves to be more than a discussion about pro's and con's of unions. It's all blood, sweat and tears for the striking pilots and their families.They deserve active support, not empty words on a chat forum.
It is vital that all pilots in the GOM fully understand that it is not possible to remain neutral in this situation. Either you support the legal industrial action initiated by Local 108 or you do not. If you do not support the struggle of Local 108 against a visciously union hostile management team, then you are no friend of mine, not today and not in this life time. I know for a fact that I speak for thousands of colleagues when making this statement.
If you are a member of the union and cross the line, then you will more likely than not spend the rest of your career dreading the days when colleagues ask innocent questions about your CV. When it becomes clear that you were a traitor to your own union as a strike breaker, you are not in a good position in any way, shape or form.
Either you are soldier in this battle, loyal to your elected union leadership, or else you are traitor. No one neither admires nor will ever support traitors.
As far as non union pilots working full time to keep the wheels turning while this madness is going on, you will fare no better.
We do need lots of pilots in Europe in the years to come. Historically, we have emplyed pilots from many nationalities in Norway, including the US. It is not certain if we need to go outside the EU region to find qualified pilots candidates. If we do, be sure of one thing: SCABS will not be welcome. Loyal pilot union members will receive our full attention in the prehire qualification process. They have already proven their worth in a time of crisis.
Regrettably for union haters and union busters, these are the sad facts of life if you do not have the guts to stand tall and make the right choice when the going gets tough.
This thread in my opinion deserves to be more than a discussion about pro's and con's of unions. It's all blood, sweat and tears for the striking pilots and their families.They deserve active support, not empty words on a chat forum.
It is vital that all pilots in the GOM fully understand that it is not possible to remain neutral in this situation. Either you support the legal industrial action initiated by Local 108 or you do not. If you do not support the struggle of Local 108 against a visciously union hostile management team, then you are no friend of mine, not today and not in this life time. I know for a fact that I speak for thousands of colleagues when making this statement.
If you are a member of the union and cross the line, then you will more likely than not spend the rest of your career dreading the days when colleagues ask innocent questions about your CV. When it becomes clear that you were a traitor to your own union as a strike breaker, you are not in a good position in any way, shape or form.
Either you are soldier in this battle, loyal to your elected union leadership, or else you are traitor. No one neither admires nor will ever support traitors.
As far as non union pilots working full time to keep the wheels turning while this madness is going on, you will fare no better.
We do need lots of pilots in Europe in the years to come. Historically, we have emplyed pilots from many nationalities in Norway, including the US. It is not certain if we need to go outside the EU region to find qualified pilots candidates. If we do, be sure of one thing: SCABS will not be welcome. Loyal pilot union members will receive our full attention in the prehire qualification process. They have already proven their worth in a time of crisis.
Regrettably for union haters and union busters, these are the sad facts of life if you do not have the guts to stand tall and make the right choice when the going gets tough.
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CHC&proud said, "If we do, be sure of one thing: SCABS will not be welcome."
Ya gotta be careful partner, in many states in the US where right-to-work laws exist, hire decisions based on such discrimination is ILLEGAL, and is considered coersion or racketeering. Once again, what you guys do over there in socialist land is one thing, what you do in a different country is quite another.
Are you threatening workers who legally fly for a company during a strike with future job discrimination?
Ya gotta be careful partner, in many states in the US where right-to-work laws exist, hire decisions based on such discrimination is ILLEGAL, and is considered coersion or racketeering. Once again, what you guys do over there in socialist land is one thing, what you do in a different country is quite another.
Are you threatening workers who legally fly for a company during a strike with future job discrimination?
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Capt.
Keep in mind one thing. In the Gulf of Mexico, the vast majority of pilots live together for their hitch. If you're wondering how scabs and union members will co-exist - just imagine the marriage from hell.
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Ya gotta be careful partner, in many states in the US where right-to-work laws exist, hire decisions based on such discrimination is ILLEGAL, and is considered coersion or racketeering. Once again, what you guys do over there in socialist land is one thing, what you do in a different country is quite another.
If you don't believe that, ask the guys who scabed at United, Continental, Wein Air Alaska or Eastern. Their careers since have been for the most part in the crapper. That is something the company recruiters will tell you. Or what will happen to you IF and when the strike is settled.
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I really have no opinion either way having no first hand experience with this situation but reading chc&proud's statements I'm leaning toward the non union side. The world would really suck if everybody was like this guy.
RJ,
What is wrong with the silent treatment? Nothing illegal about that at all. Don't be naive.....one does not have to be overt in displaying unhappiness with someone. Just fecking ignore them completely.
What is wrong with the silent treatment? Nothing illegal about that at all. Don't be naive.....one does not have to be overt in displaying unhappiness with someone. Just fecking ignore them completely.
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rj, be serious. US laws don't apply in Europe, neither state nor federal. What European pilot unions do is their business. In the US, the federal Railway Labor Act covers helicopter union jobs, not state laws. Individual state right-to-work laws simply do not apply, because they are overridden by the federal law.
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I really have no opinion either way having no first hand experience with this situation but reading chc&proud's statements I'm leaning toward the non union side. The world would really suck if everybody was like this guy.
SASless is right, noone will be told the reason why, infact the phone won't ring at all..
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Think it over one more time, he's simply stating the obvious facts, just the CRM issue is enough to make a serious employer think twice about a strike breaker, and then there is all the heat from the other employees, union or no union.
SASless is right, noone will be told the reason why, infact the phone won't ring at all..
SASless is right, noone will be told the reason why, infact the phone won't ring at all..
You are most likely correct when it comes to a company making a decision if they have a union (AMC, AL, PHI, CF).
But when it comes to a non-union company. The guy that went on strike is the one that won't get the phone call.
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Gotta call BS on both sides of this one. When a company needs pilots, they hire pilots. No one even does background checks anymore, much less worries about what side of a strike someone was on. There is no scab list! One companies "thorn in the side" is anothers shining star..
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Gotta call BS on both sides of this one. When a company needs pilots, they hire pilots. No one even does background checks anymore, much less worries about what side of a strike someone was on. There is no scab list! One companies "thorn in the side" is anothers shining star..
While there maybe endless debate on hiring strikers versus non-strikers – it boils down to each specific case. From my experience, the importance of your stance during a labor action is not as critical has it was 25 years ago – unless you were at the extremes. The company hires you plain and simple.
It also depends on your location. It has been mentioned here about the “right to work” laws, etc. Even though these are a state level law they are all base on a FEDERAL ACT which was specifically passed to counter certain issues with the National Labor Relations Act. While this is a separate labor relation act from the Railway Labor Act, there is a lot of case law providing the same type of protections to RLA members. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taft-Hartley_Act). Bottom line is the company and the union are held legally accountable to some level for their conduct and actions by various FEDERAL agencies. It was unfortunate that a couple of union members pushed the envelope and paid the price. While some may felt this issue was over stated – I don’t believe it was very prudent to play that game under the current circumstances.
While I do not agree with CHC’s assessment, I respect it based on his location. There is a huge cultural difference between US unions from EU unions, and Asian unions, and Latin America unions. Heck, if we all agreed to the current accepted methods of protest in a certain SA country, we would be throwing dynamite at the non-strikers.
I’ll be the first to admit, that I have benefited from the union’s entrance into the industry - however I prefer to look at it as a wakeup call and not a call to arms.
What I really don’t understand is why the big fight now when the union could have got a decent offer - then during the NEXT negotiations pursue the issues again?? Nobody could ever answer this – which I think led to the belief there was an underlying agenda amongst the older side of the pilots who may not be around for the next negotiations. As they say small leaks sink big ships.
Stan, I do not think the union will be broken. However, I do believe unless you get some “free thinking” individuals in there – like yourself, the union will lose what respect it has left. I remember when you were on my “side of the fence” hashing out the issues with Bob B. – good stuff! But I think the damage has been done and getting deeper unfortunately. As they say only time will tell.
W1
It also depends on your location. It has been mentioned here about the “right to work” laws, etc. Even though these are a state level law they are all base on a FEDERAL ACT which was specifically passed to counter certain issues with the National Labor Relations Act. While this is a separate labor relation act from the Railway Labor Act, there is a lot of case law providing the same type of protections to RLA members. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taft-Hartley_Act). Bottom line is the company and the union are held legally accountable to some level for their conduct and actions by various FEDERAL agencies. It was unfortunate that a couple of union members pushed the envelope and paid the price. While some may felt this issue was over stated – I don’t believe it was very prudent to play that game under the current circumstances.
While I do not agree with CHC’s assessment, I respect it based on his location. There is a huge cultural difference between US unions from EU unions, and Asian unions, and Latin America unions. Heck, if we all agreed to the current accepted methods of protest in a certain SA country, we would be throwing dynamite at the non-strikers.
I’ll be the first to admit, that I have benefited from the union’s entrance into the industry - however I prefer to look at it as a wakeup call and not a call to arms.
What I really don’t understand is why the big fight now when the union could have got a decent offer - then during the NEXT negotiations pursue the issues again?? Nobody could ever answer this – which I think led to the belief there was an underlying agenda amongst the older side of the pilots who may not be around for the next negotiations. As they say small leaks sink big ships.
Stan, I do not think the union will be broken. However, I do believe unless you get some “free thinking” individuals in there – like yourself, the union will lose what respect it has left. I remember when you were on my “side of the fence” hashing out the issues with Bob B. – good stuff! But I think the damage has been done and getting deeper unfortunately. As they say only time will tell.
W1
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Heyyyyy, my ears were burning...
Wrench1, do I know you? You must have worked at Houma if you remember Stan and me...umm, discussing the union issue with each other from across the fence (or was it opposite sides of the steam tables at the Chinese restaurant?). God, seems like a lifetime ago.
I think there is a misconception that many anti-union folk have, and that is that *all* management types (e.g. Chief Pilots, etc.) are anti-union through and through. I can assure you that this is not the case. I know of some Chief Pilots who personally sympathize with the union's goals while publicly maintaining the company line. Do not make the assumption that all Chief Pilots are staunchly anti-union.
Quick story. And truthfully, I thought I would never tell this one. But it is ancient history now. I joined PHI in 1987. Shortly thereafter the Training Department moved to new quarters, a big building just down the road from LFT airport. Big classrooms, but a small break area. When at Recurrent Training, we'd get our coffee during the 15 minute breaks and go back into the classroom to chat.
In, oh, 1989 or '90, during one of these bull sessions we naturally got on the subject of money, and how the company was treating us. The conversation was as spirited as you can imagine. Our classroom instructor, a guy named Jerry Loviglio was up at the podium, listening to all the blather, head in his hands in exasperation. He'd heard it all before.
"Union," he said quietly.
I caught it and looked over but the blather continued unabated.
"Union!" he said a little more loudly.
The second time he said it, some heads turned. Others kept up the din.
"UNION!" he finally said, banging something (a machete?) on the podium.
All heads turned toward him now.
"You guys will never get anywhere without a union," he said sternly once he had everyone's attention. "You might as well not complain if you don't want to do anything about it."
Now, at the time I was as anti-union as they come. I'd grown up in New York City, and I could recite union abuses all day long. The abuses were all I ever saw.
I harumphed and snorted and sat down at my desk, smugly thinking that "we* helicopter pilots didn't need no stinking union. But a seed was planted? If asked, I'm sure the Training Instructor in question would deny the event. But I will tell you honestly I did not imagine it.
As my personal career at PHI clunked along, it came to be 1995 and we were introduced to the OPEIU. Please realize, I had wanted PHI to be my last flying job. I had wanted to stay there until retirement. Only...we had no retirement (other than our 401k). And I came to see that PHI truly disliked pilots as a group. More than that, I came to see that pilots simply deserved a professional union to represent them and a legally-binding, fairly-negotiated contract to spell out the details. Some would say I should have just quit. But I had a lot of myself invested in PHI - almost eight years by then! I should give that up? I wanted things to be better...for me, yes of course, but also for the kids coming up after me.
I don't know whatever became of that Recurrent Training instructor of 1990. I hope he is doing well - surely retired by now. Because he is more or less responsible for me joining the OPEIU Organizing Committee and then subsequently the Negotiating Committee. I mean, Steve Ragin and the other organizers probably could have done it without my help, but I was glad to be a part of it.
It's taken me a long time to do it, but I guess I should say thanks.
Bob Barbanes
PHI 1987 - 2001
www.fh1100-pilot.********.com
I think there is a misconception that many anti-union folk have, and that is that *all* management types (e.g. Chief Pilots, etc.) are anti-union through and through. I can assure you that this is not the case. I know of some Chief Pilots who personally sympathize with the union's goals while publicly maintaining the company line. Do not make the assumption that all Chief Pilots are staunchly anti-union.
Quick story. And truthfully, I thought I would never tell this one. But it is ancient history now. I joined PHI in 1987. Shortly thereafter the Training Department moved to new quarters, a big building just down the road from LFT airport. Big classrooms, but a small break area. When at Recurrent Training, we'd get our coffee during the 15 minute breaks and go back into the classroom to chat.
In, oh, 1989 or '90, during one of these bull sessions we naturally got on the subject of money, and how the company was treating us. The conversation was as spirited as you can imagine. Our classroom instructor, a guy named Jerry Loviglio was up at the podium, listening to all the blather, head in his hands in exasperation. He'd heard it all before.
"Union," he said quietly.
I caught it and looked over but the blather continued unabated.
"Union!" he said a little more loudly.
The second time he said it, some heads turned. Others kept up the din.
"UNION!" he finally said, banging something (a machete?) on the podium.
All heads turned toward him now.
"You guys will never get anywhere without a union," he said sternly once he had everyone's attention. "You might as well not complain if you don't want to do anything about it."
Now, at the time I was as anti-union as they come. I'd grown up in New York City, and I could recite union abuses all day long. The abuses were all I ever saw.
I harumphed and snorted and sat down at my desk, smugly thinking that "we* helicopter pilots didn't need no stinking union. But a seed was planted? If asked, I'm sure the Training Instructor in question would deny the event. But I will tell you honestly I did not imagine it.
As my personal career at PHI clunked along, it came to be 1995 and we were introduced to the OPEIU. Please realize, I had wanted PHI to be my last flying job. I had wanted to stay there until retirement. Only...we had no retirement (other than our 401k). And I came to see that PHI truly disliked pilots as a group. More than that, I came to see that pilots simply deserved a professional union to represent them and a legally-binding, fairly-negotiated contract to spell out the details. Some would say I should have just quit. But I had a lot of myself invested in PHI - almost eight years by then! I should give that up? I wanted things to be better...for me, yes of course, but also for the kids coming up after me.
I don't know whatever became of that Recurrent Training instructor of 1990. I hope he is doing well - surely retired by now. Because he is more or less responsible for me joining the OPEIU Organizing Committee and then subsequently the Negotiating Committee. I mean, Steve Ragin and the other organizers probably could have done it without my help, but I was glad to be a part of it.
It's taken me a long time to do it, but I guess I should say thanks.
Bob Barbanes
PHI 1987 - 2001
www.fh1100-pilot.********.com
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There is a big deference in areas and employers. I talked to an employer about what he thought of going to work during the strike and that guy basically could care less what you did in the past when it comes to unions and getting a job with him. It was the same story, if you have the hours and are worth a dam your hired. I have allways had to look out for myself so I guess I'm just not the union "type". I don't personally have anything against them but they really are not going to have much effect on my choices and there are plenty of people like me in this part of the world.
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" if you have the hours and are worth a dam your hired. I have allways had to look out for myself so I guess I'm just not the union "type". I don't personally have anything against them but they really are not going to have much effect on my choices and there are plenty of people like me in this part of the world."
Sort of wraps it up. Perfect answer to the Helicopter Industry. Owners/Operators need pilots like parts and they are the easiest part to replace.
Sort of wraps it up. Perfect answer to the Helicopter Industry. Owners/Operators need pilots like parts and they are the easiest part to replace.