Pilots who went on strike let go by PHI
Gatvol
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"FBI payed this skunk 100,000 USD in cash....recorded the serial numbers beforehand....searched the skunk's home and found 90,000 USD by serial number in the crook's freezer.
He is still out free and in office!"
No, No, No.........Its "and he will be relected...."
He is still out free and in office!"
No, No, No.........Its "and he will be relected...."
G.P.,
Your close...
Remember that local 108 is an "open shop" where membership is voluntary with some limited requirements for new hires. On the other hand local 107 is a "closed" shop where everybody is a member.
So when the strike started there was not a 100% involvement. If I recall there were about 332 union members out 569 total pilots or 58%. However, the day of and the days that followed, a number of pilots resigned from the union. I know the number is over a hundred but to keep it conservative I will use 100 resigned, which brings the total to 40% . But keep in mind this is a dynamic number has other pilots resign and new ones hired.
I'm not out to stir the pot. I just want the pot to have ALL the ingredients put in, before we taste it...
Your close...
- El Paso only flys in the GOM - need to visit Patterson . Their getting into the EC135's, plus they have about 11+ aircraft L4's, 407's, & 105's. I know a number of people that currently work there.
- Taylor has 5 aircraft and they fly everyday. They were the first to make the EC135 a GOM aircraft (ERA tried but didn't like it). They also have replaced all the 350's with EC130's (4 total)
- ERA handled all of Rowan's flight needs and were given preference - this only went away after the sale to Seacor and Rowan started sending RFB's out.
Remember that local 108 is an "open shop" where membership is voluntary with some limited requirements for new hires. On the other hand local 107 is a "closed" shop where everybody is a member.
So when the strike started there was not a 100% involvement. If I recall there were about 332 union members out 569 total pilots or 58%. However, the day of and the days that followed, a number of pilots resigned from the union. I know the number is over a hundred but to keep it conservative I will use 100 resigned, which brings the total to 40% . But keep in mind this is a dynamic number has other pilots resign and new ones hired.
I'm not out to stir the pot. I just want the pot to have ALL the ingredients put in, before we taste it...
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It's very hard for industry outsiders to know what's really going on with the strike. I have more than a few old friends involved, on both sides of the fence and I wish them all well. But I take all reports of how many pilot are striking and how many aren't with huge grains of salt.
Stan, don't be too hard on Vern...I mean, <ahem> <cough-cough> "industry insider." He is only reporting number as related to him - they may or may not be shaded for effect. And we know where he stands on the issue of unions.
Stan, don't be too hard on Vern...I mean, <ahem> <cough-cough> "industry insider." He is only reporting number as related to him - they may or may not be shaded for effect. And we know where he stands on the issue of unions.
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[quote=Gomer Pylot;2896441]El Paso may have some aircraft somewhere, but not in the Gulf of Mexico. All their offshore flying is contracted.
There are El Paso operations in Houma and Patterson flying El Paso aircraft. PHI also has aircraft contracted to El Paso.
There are El Paso operations in Houma and Patterson flying El Paso aircraft. PHI also has aircraft contracted to El Paso.
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Exact numbers are hard to come by, since PHI will not share any information, and there are pilots on sick leave, leave of absence, and other places. As best we can calculate, there are something over 330 pilots on strike, most of them from the top of the seniority list, and flying medium and large ships.
As for flights being made, customers are our source. We have many friends and relatives out there, and they do talk to us. I can't give names, or companies, but what we are being told is that many crew changes are being done by boat, helicopter flights are rare and late, and they're getting rather fed up with PHI. We don't see all the S92s flying, in fact at least a couple have been AOG for some time. The S92 is not the most reliable aircraft in the field. Sikorsky cannot continue indefinitely with no production test pilots in Stratford.
As for flights being made, customers are our source. We have many friends and relatives out there, and they do talk to us. I can't give names, or companies, but what we are being told is that many crew changes are being done by boat, helicopter flights are rare and late, and they're getting rather fed up with PHI. We don't see all the S92s flying, in fact at least a couple have been AOG for some time. The S92 is not the most reliable aircraft in the field. Sikorsky cannot continue indefinitely with no production test pilots in Stratford.
GLS,
It would seem a simple thing to track the flights being done...one guy a day at each PHI facility with a watch, pair of binnoculars, and a notebook would determine which aircraft departs, number of passengers, and return with passengers. Throw in a telephoto lens...digital camera....and photographs of the pilots provided to a central location and then ID's can be made. The new guys might be unknown but then that would be an indicator of how many new guys there are.
All that could be done quite legally.
I cannot believe the numbers of pilots on strike or aircraft flying is unknown by either or both sides....if so....someone is making a mistake. You guys have shift rosters....compare noses to names!
That should have been a basic effort as part of the strike plan I would think. Intelligence gathering is important. You can bet yer boots PHI has a squad of goons on the payroll doing a very similar thing.
The company squad will be looking to verify any misconduct and to identify leaders of the union....that too is a standard procedure during labor problems.
As 107 learned the hard way, internal security is important as well.
It would seem a simple thing to track the flights being done...one guy a day at each PHI facility with a watch, pair of binnoculars, and a notebook would determine which aircraft departs, number of passengers, and return with passengers. Throw in a telephoto lens...digital camera....and photographs of the pilots provided to a central location and then ID's can be made. The new guys might be unknown but then that would be an indicator of how many new guys there are.
All that could be done quite legally.
I cannot believe the numbers of pilots on strike or aircraft flying is unknown by either or both sides....if so....someone is making a mistake. You guys have shift rosters....compare noses to names!
That should have been a basic effort as part of the strike plan I would think. Intelligence gathering is important. You can bet yer boots PHI has a squad of goons on the payroll doing a very similar thing.
The company squad will be looking to verify any misconduct and to identify leaders of the union....that too is a standard procedure during labor problems.
As 107 learned the hard way, internal security is important as well.
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Shift rosters?? You really have never been near the GOM, have you, SASless? A lineup is only good for one day, and it's usually outdated by 9AM. So many jobs are covered by pool pilots and mandatory workover it's simply not possible to count that way. We have an outdated seniority list, the last one provided by PHI, and we know how many are on the union website, but many aren't computer literate enough to get on that, or just don't try. AFAIK we really don't have accurate numbers, and I'm not privy to them in any case. The only number I can swear to is 'enough'. Those on strike aren't boys; they're middle-aged or older, and what hair they have is grey or white. They've been shot at many times, and not always missed. They've seen much worse than what Al Gonsoulin can dish out. They're not from the instant-gratification, ME ME ME generation, they've served their country and their company with honor, and their honor is important, no, essential to them. They're in this for the long haul, come hell or high water. PHI understimates their resolve at its peril, and further lies only strengthen it.
The company is already taking hostages, through false charges. The targets will likely end up much richer than they are now, and the lawsuits are already filed.
The company is already taking hostages, through false charges. The targets will likely end up much richer than they are now, and the lawsuits are already filed.
Some additional info...
GLS,
· "...Exact numbers are hard to come by, since PHI will not share any information,"
o Please visit the company "pilotinfo" website for explicit numbers of union pilots before and after. If these numbers do not match the union numbers on the member side of their website, please post corrections
· "...and there are pilots on sick leave, leave of absence, and other places"
o Unfortunitely this seems to prove a previous rumor that not all union pilots were advised and / or counted by the union for the strike. Several pilots actually reported for work and signed, only to be called on their cell phone the strike had started - and promptly left.
· "...As best we can calculate, there are something over 330 pilots on strike, most of them from the top of the seniority list, and flying medium and large ships."
o ALL the info I have from PHI and 108 shows only 332 signed members prior to the strike, of which I personally know 6 pilots that resigned within an hour of the beginning of the strike. So this 330+ number I believe is not factual.
· "As for flights being made, customers are our source. We have many friends and relatives out there, and they do talk to us. I can't give names, or companies, but what we are being told is that many crew changes are being done by boat, helicopter flights are rare and late..."
o Yes, a number of the pilots that walked out, for one reason or another were high time pilots, and yes it has slowed SOME flight operations for several SPECIFIC contracts, however, to imply it is company wide is not very accurate.
· "The S92 is not the most reliable aircraft in the field."
o First, I think you owe Nick an apology on that one. For a new model I think it has proved its viability. Second, I must ask, how many S92's were flying daily BEFORE the strike?
Sasless, (and others)
Thank you for questioning some of the information provided within this discussion. It was your questions, and lack of answers that made me register and post some information in this discussion. Unfortunately it has been a big game of "he said - she said", since before all this started. I hope the outcome is benefitial to both sides, however, it does appear there will be some people that will not fair well at its conclusion. While there are a number of other issues that could be brought out - I only wish to respond when needed. Thanks. W1
GLS,
· "...Exact numbers are hard to come by, since PHI will not share any information,"
o Please visit the company "pilotinfo" website for explicit numbers of union pilots before and after. If these numbers do not match the union numbers on the member side of their website, please post corrections
· "...and there are pilots on sick leave, leave of absence, and other places"
o Unfortunitely this seems to prove a previous rumor that not all union pilots were advised and / or counted by the union for the strike. Several pilots actually reported for work and signed, only to be called on their cell phone the strike had started - and promptly left.
· "...As best we can calculate, there are something over 330 pilots on strike, most of them from the top of the seniority list, and flying medium and large ships."
o ALL the info I have from PHI and 108 shows only 332 signed members prior to the strike, of which I personally know 6 pilots that resigned within an hour of the beginning of the strike. So this 330+ number I believe is not factual.
· "As for flights being made, customers are our source. We have many friends and relatives out there, and they do talk to us. I can't give names, or companies, but what we are being told is that many crew changes are being done by boat, helicopter flights are rare and late..."
o Yes, a number of the pilots that walked out, for one reason or another were high time pilots, and yes it has slowed SOME flight operations for several SPECIFIC contracts, however, to imply it is company wide is not very accurate.
· "The S92 is not the most reliable aircraft in the field."
o First, I think you owe Nick an apology on that one. For a new model I think it has proved its viability. Second, I must ask, how many S92's were flying daily BEFORE the strike?
Sasless, (and others)
Thank you for questioning some of the information provided within this discussion. It was your questions, and lack of answers that made me register and post some information in this discussion. Unfortunately it has been a big game of "he said - she said", since before all this started. I hope the outcome is benefitial to both sides, however, it does appear there will be some people that will not fair well at its conclusion. While there are a number of other issues that could be brought out - I only wish to respond when needed. Thanks. W1
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GLSNightPilot, the sad truth is that the union knows exactly how many people are out on strike. They started the month of September with X number of members. It can be assumed that only the members went on strike. Agency fee payers and non members overwhelmingly continued to work. Since the strike began, Y number of union members has resigned and gone back to work. X minus Y is the number of people on strike and Steve and Mike know the number.
If you, the member, don't know the number it is because the union leadership doesn't want to tell you. If they told you, you would realize that the battle is lost.
If you, the member, don't know the number it is because the union leadership doesn't want to tell you. If they told you, you would realize that the battle is lost.
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It does appear that PHI is becoming increasingly desperate, if it has to send employees here to post. This isn't exactly the best-known forum in the US. They have been at it hot and heavy on Just Helicopters for a long time, and now it seems they are spreading out.
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PHI
GP - why is it that when folks start to post a different perspective they are always a "buster" or "management is desperate"?
Given union membership in society is on a major decline and is really a very small segment of the employment population (especially if you step outside of goverment employees), I would think different perspectives would be the norm, not the exception.
Given union membership in society is on a major decline and is really a very small segment of the employment population (especially if you step outside of goverment employees), I would think different perspectives would be the norm, not the exception.
G.P.,
Please answer me this - why is it when a post is written that counters a union fact, it is met with the type of answer you provide - the company is desperate...? So are you implying that all union based comments are true without reproach??
As I stated before, I registered and posted here because I was tired of the one-sided comments made and the lack of accuracy in some cases. NO other agenda here I’m afraid.
I posted on THIS forum because I thought it maintained a more professional level then the free fore all at Just Helicopters – however, it appears that if anything is spreading here …
I think that if there is any desperation around, your fellow pilot GLS has summed it up pretty good in his last post above…
“We have an outdated seniority list, the last one provided by PHI, and we know how many are on the union website, but many aren't computer literate enough to get on that…”
“They've been shot at many times, and not always missed…”
“The company is already taking hostages, through false charges…”
Hostages…?!?!?! It seems GLS was having a bad day so I will leave it at that.
And by the way Pprune is a lot more known in the US then you think – I just haven’t had a reason to post until now.
Please answer me this - why is it when a post is written that counters a union fact, it is met with the type of answer you provide - the company is desperate...? So are you implying that all union based comments are true without reproach??
As I stated before, I registered and posted here because I was tired of the one-sided comments made and the lack of accuracy in some cases. NO other agenda here I’m afraid.
I posted on THIS forum because I thought it maintained a more professional level then the free fore all at Just Helicopters – however, it appears that if anything is spreading here …
I think that if there is any desperation around, your fellow pilot GLS has summed it up pretty good in his last post above…
“We have an outdated seniority list, the last one provided by PHI, and we know how many are on the union website, but many aren't computer literate enough to get on that…”
“They've been shot at many times, and not always missed…”
“The company is already taking hostages, through false charges…”
Hostages…?!?!?! It seems GLS was having a bad day so I will leave it at that.
And by the way Pprune is a lot more known in the US then you think – I just haven’t had a reason to post until now.
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Gomer Pylot, do you think I'm being sent here by the company to post? Are you being sent here by the union to post? Or are we just two people with a different perspective on things? My bet is we are all here of our own accord.
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I'm talking about all the new Probationary PPruners who suddenly show up posting what is obviously the company's viewpoint. That is obvious to anyone who cares to think. GLS and many others have been here a long time, but there are now several newbies, all posting the same things. There has to be a reason for that.
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Sorry to disappoint
Some of us (my case in particular) enjoy being on the sidelines, watching, and learning and in general don't post because we would rather learn from others rather than become "known" poster.
First - I am not a union supporter. I believe they have a place when it comes to workplace safety issues IF the employer is not responsive. I believe that unions artificially inflate wages and drive up the cost of the product to the consumer and ultimately make the company non-competitive and thus the market place will if at all possible look for a more economical alternative. That will happen regardless of the market segment (thus the response "the oil companies have more money than they can spend" does not wash with me). I believe that ultimately OPEIU will prove to be wrong for the commercial industry (specifically the EMS world) as they will drive up prices so high that the government (which pays the vast majority of the cost for HEMS) will kill reimbursement and thus jobs will be out the door (no all - but a significant number).
I could go on - and can if desired, but I digress from the reason for my post.
I jumped in because it is very obvious that when confronted with specifics, union supporter’s first response is always "you are a buster" or "you work for the company." I challenged you because you did not respond to the issues - you just relied on the traditional union supporter distraction.
I would suggest that unions would be better served and possibly have a better opportunity to influence if they dealt with issues rather than the traditional distraction statements (buster, scab, etc). When you respond as you do, most pilots move on quickly as they are interested in the issues not rhetoric.
Just a suggestion. There may be a few that are doing as you suggested, but do you help your cause by focusing on that issue? I doubt it!!
First - I am not a union supporter. I believe they have a place when it comes to workplace safety issues IF the employer is not responsive. I believe that unions artificially inflate wages and drive up the cost of the product to the consumer and ultimately make the company non-competitive and thus the market place will if at all possible look for a more economical alternative. That will happen regardless of the market segment (thus the response "the oil companies have more money than they can spend" does not wash with me). I believe that ultimately OPEIU will prove to be wrong for the commercial industry (specifically the EMS world) as they will drive up prices so high that the government (which pays the vast majority of the cost for HEMS) will kill reimbursement and thus jobs will be out the door (no all - but a significant number).
I could go on - and can if desired, but I digress from the reason for my post.
I jumped in because it is very obvious that when confronted with specifics, union supporter’s first response is always "you are a buster" or "you work for the company." I challenged you because you did not respond to the issues - you just relied on the traditional union supporter distraction.
I would suggest that unions would be better served and possibly have a better opportunity to influence if they dealt with issues rather than the traditional distraction statements (buster, scab, etc). When you respond as you do, most pilots move on quickly as they are interested in the issues not rhetoric.
Just a suggestion. There may be a few that are doing as you suggested, but do you help your cause by focusing on that issue? I doubt it!!
Matter of fact AA, all of your grand total of 4 posts 
was related to union content threads.
Yes, you seem to be lurking only to put your input on union related issues.
Since you ask our position, it's obvious what yours is and brings nothing debatable to this table.
was related to union content threads.Yes, you seem to be lurking only to put your input on union related issues.
Since you ask our position, it's obvious what yours is and brings nothing debatable to this table.
Gomer,
It is not the "company's" view point I bring to this forum, but rather my own. I think PHI is big enough to say what they want to say on their own.
I've been following this forum for several years prior to your registration date and GLS - so wrong on that part too.
But I guess no matter what, you will always think everything is part of a giant conspiracy - to do what - I haven't figured that one out yet.
Since my sole reason to post here was just to add missing pieces to the discussion puzzle, I do not wish to get involved in the same type of GENERAL conversations I endured prior to the strike.
However, if you would like to discuss SPECIFIC items - I’m game.
It is not the "company's" view point I bring to this forum, but rather my own. I think PHI is big enough to say what they want to say on their own.
I've been following this forum for several years prior to your registration date and GLS - so wrong on that part too.
But I guess no matter what, you will always think everything is part of a giant conspiracy - to do what - I haven't figured that one out yet.
Since my sole reason to post here was just to add missing pieces to the discussion puzzle, I do not wish to get involved in the same type of GENERAL conversations I endured prior to the strike.
However, if you would like to discuss SPECIFIC items - I’m game.
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tottigol - proves the point
Your reply proves the point - yes - I have only posted under union topics (very minimally) over the last couple of years. Reivew of your record shows that in 2006 - a significant number of your posts are also directed at union posts.
The point it - you chose to look for motives, "busters," "company mangement," etc rather than discuss the differences.
That's your choice - but again, you do a disservice to your position with that philosophy.
The point it - you chose to look for motives, "busters," "company mangement," etc rather than discuss the differences.
That's your choice - but again, you do a disservice to your position with that philosophy.
"Just a pilot"
"Airborne Again" said-
"I believe that unions artificially inflate wages and drive up the cost of the product to the consumer and ultimately make the company non-competitive and thus the market place will if at all possible look for a more economical alternative."
I can't let that go unremarked upon. The situation in the U.S. is that an artificial surplus of pilots depressed wages for the last 30 years. Now, that's changing, and the change is upsetting a lot of applecarts.
If a company has a union, it's because the compay earned it, and nothing brasses folks off more than their just deserts. If management didn't respect their employees pre-union, I don't expect them to become more reasonable because the employees unite.
Further, that aritificial surplus set cultural precedent for management and pilots. One could say that that allowed expansion of the industry, and I won't argue. That wasn't free, and now some of those costs are coming due.
When the Chief Pilot's got ten resumes per open seat, all from pilots with multiples of company minimums, management can be expected to believe that pilots can be recruited from any "New Orleans gutter". (I beg forgiveness from the late Mr Suggs for further misrepresenting his quote, but it illustrates the point.) That being the situation, pilots learned that it's better to be a new hire than fight to resolve an issue at one's present employer.
That's history. The glut is gone. When I was last in the market a few years ago, there three or four minimally qualified (3000 hr PICs) pilots competing for the seats I looked into. Now, 1500 hours and sometimes great deal less, is a common minimum. The answer at some operators is to scrape the bottom of the barrel and require mandatory overtime, and blame the pilots.
Finally, if you don't get value in a contract, it's your fault. Negotiations fail, sometimes there is no compatible compromise, but if you sign a contract, it's yours- blaming the other party is juvenile.
Are there poorly led unions? Yes. And some dogs bite; some people steal, cheat; and if you look hard enough, you can find evidence for any irrational position. Unions aren't bad for U.S. commercial aviation, they're an excuse for poor management.
"I believe that unions artificially inflate wages and drive up the cost of the product to the consumer and ultimately make the company non-competitive and thus the market place will if at all possible look for a more economical alternative."
I can't let that go unremarked upon. The situation in the U.S. is that an artificial surplus of pilots depressed wages for the last 30 years. Now, that's changing, and the change is upsetting a lot of applecarts.
If a company has a union, it's because the compay earned it, and nothing brasses folks off more than their just deserts. If management didn't respect their employees pre-union, I don't expect them to become more reasonable because the employees unite.
Further, that aritificial surplus set cultural precedent for management and pilots. One could say that that allowed expansion of the industry, and I won't argue. That wasn't free, and now some of those costs are coming due.
When the Chief Pilot's got ten resumes per open seat, all from pilots with multiples of company minimums, management can be expected to believe that pilots can be recruited from any "New Orleans gutter". (I beg forgiveness from the late Mr Suggs for further misrepresenting his quote, but it illustrates the point.) That being the situation, pilots learned that it's better to be a new hire than fight to resolve an issue at one's present employer.
That's history. The glut is gone. When I was last in the market a few years ago, there three or four minimally qualified (3000 hr PICs) pilots competing for the seats I looked into. Now, 1500 hours and sometimes great deal less, is a common minimum. The answer at some operators is to scrape the bottom of the barrel and require mandatory overtime, and blame the pilots.
Finally, if you don't get value in a contract, it's your fault. Negotiations fail, sometimes there is no compatible compromise, but if you sign a contract, it's yours- blaming the other party is juvenile.
Are there poorly led unions? Yes. And some dogs bite; some people steal, cheat; and if you look hard enough, you can find evidence for any irrational position. Unions aren't bad for U.S. commercial aviation, they're an excuse for poor management.
