Loging of Flight Time in Oz
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Oz
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Loging of Flight Time in Oz
Guys,
The Australian industry by convention establishes flight time as being fronm engine start to engine stop for machines where the rotor engages at start.
Everyone I know also treats ground runs the same. That is ground runs are logged as PIC time when the rotor is turning.
What is the Australian industry and pilot consensus on this?
What are your thoughts?
The Australian industry by convention establishes flight time as being fronm engine start to engine stop for machines where the rotor engages at start.
Everyone I know also treats ground runs the same. That is ground runs are logged as PIC time when the rotor is turning.
What is the Australian industry and pilot consensus on this?
What are your thoughts?
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Downwind
Posts: 348
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Logging time
Although I am aware of a number of pilots that have logged just about everything they have seen as well as actually done, the most outrageous rort of the concept of logging one's own hours that I ever saw was a pilot who managed to wangle their way onto any spare seat in any charter going round, and log everything, regardless of whether they were at a control seat, had a set of duals installed, were awake or not.
This person commenced an instructor rating with what I believe to be around 175 hours of actual hands on stick time, with approximately 50 as PIC. No doubt the fiction would have been apparent to anybody actually conducting a rating, but whether money spoke sufficiently I do not know, as I have managed to successfully remove myself from that particular loop.
To attempt to be helpful with what we should be doing, my reading of the legislation is that so long as one actually intends to take flight, one can log engine start to engine stop. If a maintenance ground run is performed, the activity cannot be logged as flight time as the intention was not to slip the surly bonds. If an aircraft fails a pre takeoff check and the flight is scrubbed after start, the time can be logged as the intention was to become airborne.
Anybody care to differ? And before the slinging begins, Yes, I have logged time using the "Log anything I actually did" method. I reviewed the legislation while studying for an ATPL exam I haven't done yet and felt more than a tinge of embarrassment. No I'm not taking it out as I believed it so at the time and what's done is done. It makes up about 2 hours for me so it's not as significant for me as others.
This person commenced an instructor rating with what I believe to be around 175 hours of actual hands on stick time, with approximately 50 as PIC. No doubt the fiction would have been apparent to anybody actually conducting a rating, but whether money spoke sufficiently I do not know, as I have managed to successfully remove myself from that particular loop.
To attempt to be helpful with what we should be doing, my reading of the legislation is that so long as one actually intends to take flight, one can log engine start to engine stop. If a maintenance ground run is performed, the activity cannot be logged as flight time as the intention was not to slip the surly bonds. If an aircraft fails a pre takeoff check and the flight is scrubbed after start, the time can be logged as the intention was to become airborne.
Anybody care to differ? And before the slinging begins, Yes, I have logged time using the "Log anything I actually did" method. I reviewed the legislation while studying for an ATPL exam I haven't done yet and felt more than a tinge of embarrassment. No I'm not taking it out as I believed it so at the time and what's done is done. It makes up about 2 hours for me so it's not as significant for me as others.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: In my Hammock or at the Pub!
Posts: 140
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Get out the Reference
In the Mil log chock to chock, In Civvy St log rotor to rotor. If you are doing a ground run and plan to go flying then log rotor to rotor. If you are ground running with no intent to go flying, then keep your log book pen AWAY from your log book.
Reference URL:
http://www.casa.gov.au/fcl/flight_time.htm
Reproduced here
"Flight Time
means, in the case of a heavier-than-air aircraft, the total time from when the aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking-off until the moment at which it comes to rest after landing. This is synonymous with 'chock to chock', 'block to block' or 'push back to block' time.
In the case of a helicopter, whenever helicopter rotors are engaged for the purpose of a flight, the time will be included in the flight time. "
HRT says" ....Everyone I know also treats ground runs the same. That is ground runs are logged as PIC time when the rotor is turning.
What is the Australian industry and pilot consensus on this?....."
HRT-Mate personally I have no respect (nor does the industry) for folks that pad out the log book with hrs that were never really flown, or achieved while ground running. Its the same as having 10,000 hrs which are in effect 1 hr flown 10,000 times. It all adds up to a small scope of experience. No MOJO, you might as well put your micro soft flight sim hrs in your log book aswell if you are in the habbit of logging ground runs......
Beware if you turn up to an interview with 5000 hrs and fly like you have 1500 hrs you will be discovered. Once this occurs the damage is done!!!! Your log book, your life.
Max
Reference URL:
http://www.casa.gov.au/fcl/flight_time.htm
Reproduced here
"Flight Time
means, in the case of a heavier-than-air aircraft, the total time from when the aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking-off until the moment at which it comes to rest after landing. This is synonymous with 'chock to chock', 'block to block' or 'push back to block' time.
In the case of a helicopter, whenever helicopter rotors are engaged for the purpose of a flight, the time will be included in the flight time. "
HRT says" ....Everyone I know also treats ground runs the same. That is ground runs are logged as PIC time when the rotor is turning.
What is the Australian industry and pilot consensus on this?....."
HRT-Mate personally I have no respect (nor does the industry) for folks that pad out the log book with hrs that were never really flown, or achieved while ground running. Its the same as having 10,000 hrs which are in effect 1 hr flown 10,000 times. It all adds up to a small scope of experience. No MOJO, you might as well put your micro soft flight sim hrs in your log book aswell if you are in the habbit of logging ground runs......
Beware if you turn up to an interview with 5000 hrs and fly like you have 1500 hrs you will be discovered. Once this occurs the damage is done!!!! Your log book, your life.
Max
Last edited by maxeemum; 31st Jul 2006 at 11:31.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Townsville Australia
Posts: 115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Maxeemum is quite correct.
Here's a tip for any ADF helo drivers. Keep a parallel civvie logbook with your military logbook. Once you 'hit-the-tit' or engage rotors (whichever is applicable), then start the clock. This will be your civvie time.
Once you start taxiing, then note the time, this will be your military time. Make sure the entries correspond.
How many times, especially on NVG sorties, have you sat on the tarmac, turning and burning doing goggle checks, HUD checks, hoist and hook checks? Next thing you know, you've had your rotors spinning for 20 minutes and that time doesn't make it into your Military logbook... but it can in a civvie log book. I found out the hard way.
Then, when you finally get out of the blue or green machine, take all your logbooks to your interviews so your prospective employer can see that you're not trying to diddle the system.
Safe flying
CB
Here's a tip for any ADF helo drivers. Keep a parallel civvie logbook with your military logbook. Once you 'hit-the-tit' or engage rotors (whichever is applicable), then start the clock. This will be your civvie time.
Once you start taxiing, then note the time, this will be your military time. Make sure the entries correspond.
How many times, especially on NVG sorties, have you sat on the tarmac, turning and burning doing goggle checks, HUD checks, hoist and hook checks? Next thing you know, you've had your rotors spinning for 20 minutes and that time doesn't make it into your Military logbook... but it can in a civvie log book. I found out the hard way.
Then, when you finally get out of the blue or green machine, take all your logbooks to your interviews so your prospective employer can see that you're not trying to diddle the system.
Safe flying
CB
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Aus
Posts: 120
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pose a Question
Good responses from all.
I agree.
The CASA link and documentation says it all.
Should I pose the age old question though!
Your doing a ground run (maintenance) with no intention to fly. We've worked out that you don't log this one. What happens if their is an incident, who is the PIC (considering you cannot log it)?
Let the theories begin.
Happy Logging.
800
I agree.
The CASA link and documentation says it all.
Should I pose the age old question though!
Your doing a ground run (maintenance) with no intention to fly. We've worked out that you don't log this one. What happens if their is an incident, who is the PIC (considering you cannot log it)?
Let the theories begin.
Happy Logging.
800
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Victoria
Posts: 188
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
to PIC or not to PIC
so the aircraft is sitting on the ground with the blades turning
are you suggesting that you're not the PIC?
person walks out from behind you straight into the Tail rotor
now who's the PIC?
casa? unlikely
so if you are still accountable in all respects, then of course it should be logged as PIC, the blades are flying, the aircraft is static, there is still liability & duty of care/responsibility.
are you suggesting that you're not the PIC?
person walks out from behind you straight into the Tail rotor
now who's the PIC?
casa? unlikely
so if you are still accountable in all respects, then of course it should be logged as PIC, the blades are flying, the aircraft is static, there is still liability & duty of care/responsibility.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Aus, Europe & everywhere in between
Posts: 391
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[the total time from when the aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking-off until the moment at which it comes to rest after landing.
Don't ask the people here on this forum - just look up the CASA website for the legalities.
As for being PIC just for a ground run - well, you have to take responsibility for the aircraft whether you intend to go flying or not. That's why we all spent so much money to get our licences in the first place.
Exactly; there's a difference between being in command of an aircraft and actually flying it. To take the ground run theme to the extreme, there are, in some countries, engineers/mechanics who are qualified to do engaged ground runs; I'm damm sure they don't log flight time though!
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,957
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For those who are worried about overstepping their flight times, the argument of 'Oogle' is fair enough.
For the 'ADF' and the 'rev up to take off' type scenes I agree with Max, you're in command of the A/C after all and you'll be pinned as PIC regardless whether its written or not it's in your log.
The engine runs, or strobe t/r etc on the ground, either by engineer or newbie on the pad will be authorised by chiefy and I suggest covered under 'Hanger Keepers Liability', which would have 'Third Party' considerations?. no requirement for pilots logs only the M/R
I note that so far no one has surfaced the 'other' side.
A word of encouragement for Newbies here; it is whorthwhile commenting as Max has, that homesty is the best policy. Say you have not flown for a year, you have between 100 and 250 or so hours or so and you front up for that magic first interview and feared flight with a check pilot.
This is what you will do,
1) be terrified and fumble before lift -off,
2) after a couple of seconds you will fly as smothly as your instructor did for twenty minutes or to up to about one hour.
3) then it will all go to pieces, concentration strain overides totally currency manipulative skill to the point where the check pilot will more than likely have to take over when you approach to land.
4) DO NOT WORRY, just hope that you have a check pilot who has been around longer than his last and first three hundred hours instructing and he should then be human enough to help you progress.
For the 'ADF' and the 'rev up to take off' type scenes I agree with Max, you're in command of the A/C after all and you'll be pinned as PIC regardless whether its written or not it's in your log.
The engine runs, or strobe t/r etc on the ground, either by engineer or newbie on the pad will be authorised by chiefy and I suggest covered under 'Hanger Keepers Liability', which would have 'Third Party' considerations?. no requirement for pilots logs only the M/R
I note that so far no one has surfaced the 'other' side.
A word of encouragement for Newbies here; it is whorthwhile commenting as Max has, that homesty is the best policy. Say you have not flown for a year, you have between 100 and 250 or so hours or so and you front up for that magic first interview and feared flight with a check pilot.
This is what you will do,
1) be terrified and fumble before lift -off,
2) after a couple of seconds you will fly as smothly as your instructor did for twenty minutes or to up to about one hour.
3) then it will all go to pieces, concentration strain overides totally currency manipulative skill to the point where the check pilot will more than likely have to take over when you approach to land.
4) DO NOT WORRY, just hope that you have a check pilot who has been around longer than his last and first three hundred hours instructing and he should then be human enough to help you progress.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: australia
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I dont think its fair on a operator to log ground runs especially if you have a hard time strobing a tail rotor....come on how could you log hours in a day if the skids never left the ground.
Also i prefer to log skids on skids off in both OZ and Canada because it helps me with maintaining flight and duty especially if it gets busy.
I was unlucky enough to be in the Mustering industry when there was some funny bussiness you could say in regards to logging hrs....not proud but its the way it was!
MG.
Also i prefer to log skids on skids off in both OZ and Canada because it helps me with maintaining flight and duty especially if it gets busy.
I was unlucky enough to be in the Mustering industry when there was some funny bussiness you could say in regards to logging hrs....not proud but its the way it was!
MG.
I would have to wonder at anyone logging a ground run. What are you going to gain? Maybe 2 hours in a year?!!
Other than Oz, most places I've worked log "skids off, skids on"
Other than Oz, most places I've worked log "skids off, skids on"
..."Come to rest"....
If the chopper is sat on the ground but parts are still moving - has it really come to rest?
Kind of depends on your definition of at rest doesn't it?
Could mean once you're on the ground, or once everything has stopped moving. I agree that if theres parts moving - it could hurt someone so someone has to be responsible - and therefore PIC.
Otherwise we'd all just kill the power and swagger away into the sunset, lighting a cigarette, blades spinning away in the background...
If the chopper is sat on the ground but parts are still moving - has it really come to rest?
Kind of depends on your definition of at rest doesn't it?
Could mean once you're on the ground, or once everything has stopped moving. I agree that if theres parts moving - it could hurt someone so someone has to be responsible - and therefore PIC.
Otherwise we'd all just kill the power and swagger away into the sunset, lighting a cigarette, blades spinning away in the background...
Some people think that you start logging flight time as soon as you sign for the aircraft and walk out of the crewroom. Sure, you are responsible for an incident that occurs as a passenger slips on the aircraft step and topples gracefully to the ground. Or a kid impales himself on the pitot tube. But you can't log anything until the blades are turning with the intention of flying.
No logging ground runs - apart from being illegal, contemptible and the act of a desperado, only tragic dunces would do it.
As a newby in the ADF, we were often tasked with the crappy jobs, like ground runs (unloggable) and compass swings. At least we flew a bit on a compass swing - pick it up, turn 30 degrees, put it down. BUT! We could only log 50% of the total time.
No logging ground runs - apart from being illegal, contemptible and the act of a desperado, only tragic dunces would do it.
As a newby in the ADF, we were often tasked with the crappy jobs, like ground runs (unloggable) and compass swings. At least we flew a bit on a compass swing - pick it up, turn 30 degrees, put it down. BUT! We could only log 50% of the total time.
Last edited by Ascend Charlie; 31st Jul 2006 at 23:23.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: In the boot
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The way I log flight hours in Aus is as follows:
Skid type helo: skid off to skid on.
Wheeled Helo: Engine start (rotor turning) to engine off for the purpose of flight (because you must be at the controls on wheeled helos, unlike skid helos...in the regs).
Ground runs....NIL - NONE - get it!
Skid type helo: skid off to skid on.
Wheeled Helo: Engine start (rotor turning) to engine off for the purpose of flight (because you must be at the controls on wheeled helos, unlike skid helos...in the regs).
Ground runs....NIL - NONE - get it!
Fairy Land does exist
Have a story to tell.
A young Robinson pilot called a pilot’s friend (PF) mate and asked for help as he was in deep trouble with the regulator. (This is not against mustering guys – just the driver’s attitude)
Phone call went like this:
Pilot: “The bloody CASA are onto me and I need some advice”.
PF: “What have you done?”
Pilot: “Went out to do a muster (herding) and upon arrival I found that I could use the stockman’s motor bike instead of the Robbie.”
PF: “Unusual way of doing things – so what is the problem?”
Pilot: “CASA reckon I flew ten hours and logged only one!”
PF: “Did you fly ten hours - what was in the tech record (maintenance release)?”
Pilot: “Nah, as I said, just one hour.”
PF: “Oh? What did you invoice the client - what did you charge the land owner?”
Pilot: Becoming miffed: “Ten hours of course!”
PF: “So you did not use the motor bike?”
Pilot: “What do you reckon?”
PF: “In this country you have committed several offences, some are impost and fraud!”
Pilot: “So you can’t help me?”
PF: “What do you reckon?”
In hindsight: Would you buy this helicopter? Does metal have memory?
A young Robinson pilot called a pilot’s friend (PF) mate and asked for help as he was in deep trouble with the regulator. (This is not against mustering guys – just the driver’s attitude)
Phone call went like this:
Pilot: “The bloody CASA are onto me and I need some advice”.
PF: “What have you done?”
Pilot: “Went out to do a muster (herding) and upon arrival I found that I could use the stockman’s motor bike instead of the Robbie.”
PF: “Unusual way of doing things – so what is the problem?”
Pilot: “CASA reckon I flew ten hours and logged only one!”
PF: “Did you fly ten hours - what was in the tech record (maintenance release)?”
Pilot: “Nah, as I said, just one hour.”
PF: “Oh? What did you invoice the client - what did you charge the land owner?”
Pilot: Becoming miffed: “Ten hours of course!”
PF: “So you did not use the motor bike?”
Pilot: “What do you reckon?”
PF: “In this country you have committed several offences, some are impost and fraud!”
Pilot: “So you can’t help me?”
PF: “What do you reckon?”
In hindsight: Would you buy this helicopter? Does metal have memory?
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Downwind
Posts: 348
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whilst it remains an embarrassment, and I'm glad nobody's savaged me (so far), I feel better for having put it out there, knowing what a pillock I was and how many others have done the same.
My experience has long since reached a level where the unfortunately entries are inconsequential, but I still feel a little twinge of anxiety watching a tyro ground running an aircraft and just wondering whether an entry will go somewhere it shouldn't. My observation of the low-time instructor candidate has heightened the concern about the honours system in general.
As for Rob's tale, it's a bit sad, but it some regions of Australia, the community expectation is the prices remain the same forever. I once had a person complain bitterly, refusing to fly unless I discounted her flight to what she'd previously paid. Some questions revealed that her previous flight had occurred 9 YEARS EARLIER. The motivation to charge for hours not flown, or to run on the edge of bankruptcy, or skip maintenance, or falsify hours, does not always come from within, but like logging ground runs, the temptation must always be resisted.
I have committed just one of these sins and changed my path, glad that I didn't hurt anyone and that I discovered the error of my ways at a time when I hadn't formed a habit.
My experience has long since reached a level where the unfortunately entries are inconsequential, but I still feel a little twinge of anxiety watching a tyro ground running an aircraft and just wondering whether an entry will go somewhere it shouldn't. My observation of the low-time instructor candidate has heightened the concern about the honours system in general.
As for Rob's tale, it's a bit sad, but it some regions of Australia, the community expectation is the prices remain the same forever. I once had a person complain bitterly, refusing to fly unless I discounted her flight to what she'd previously paid. Some questions revealed that her previous flight had occurred 9 YEARS EARLIER. The motivation to charge for hours not flown, or to run on the edge of bankruptcy, or skip maintenance, or falsify hours, does not always come from within, but like logging ground runs, the temptation must always be resisted.
I have committed just one of these sins and changed my path, glad that I didn't hurt anyone and that I discovered the error of my ways at a time when I hadn't formed a habit.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: In my Hammock or at the Pub!
Posts: 140
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Free Wheel
Good for you mate. Any system is only as good as its people. Good people = good system.
There will always be folks that bend/twist the rules and regs to gain an advantage. Lets hope none of our loved ones are ever in the back on a trip/sortie with these punters.
A log book says more about your professionalism than you think.
Max
Good for you mate. Any system is only as good as its people. Good people = good system.
There will always be folks that bend/twist the rules and regs to gain an advantage. Lets hope none of our loved ones are ever in the back on a trip/sortie with these punters.
A log book says more about your professionalism than you think.
Max
