Robinson R22 Corner [Archive copy]
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Posts: 452
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Trivia:
"It may be of interest that the Flettner ships [intermeshing configuration] have been landed from vertical descents in the manner characteristic of autogiros, (by pulling back on the control stick after nosing down from vertical descent). Collective pitch was not used."
" .. the [rotor, not engine] governor was set at 160 rpm. The collective pitch lever allows the pilot to override the governor and adjust the pitch.
_______________________
The above is reprinted from the June 1947 issue of American Helicopter.
How far have helicopters advanced, over the years?
The complete article can be found at; http://www.unicopter.com/0474_2.html
Dave J.
"It may be of interest that the Flettner ships [intermeshing configuration] have been landed from vertical descents in the manner characteristic of autogiros, (by pulling back on the control stick after nosing down from vertical descent). Collective pitch was not used."
" .. the [rotor, not engine] governor was set at 160 rpm. The collective pitch lever allows the pilot to override the governor and adjust the pitch.
_______________________
The above is reprinted from the June 1947 issue of American Helicopter.
How far have helicopters advanced, over the years?
The complete article can be found at; http://www.unicopter.com/0474_2.html
Dave J.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: New South Wales
Posts: 1,794
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
1.1 seconds to react or your wing falls off in the cruise? Less in the climb? You guys shouldn't let this information get out -- could give helicopters a bad name.
Oh, for a solid plank on each side of the cockpit...
QDM
Oh, for a solid plank on each side of the cockpit...
QDM
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 120
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
1.1 seconds really is just a figure that allerts inexperienced drivers to the dangers of not getting the collective down in a hurry.
The other mechanical problem that R22 pilots faced here in Australia for many months was the rolling off of the drive belts. Two R22's, in one day, were auto'd successfully to the ground due to belts failing............by the same pilot. A bad batch of manufactured belts were sent to Oz. I remember 6 cases of belts failing. If you smell rubber whilst flying......land, as with fuel starvation, it is an instant failure.
In practice, thankfully, you would be surprised at how fast you will react. The biggest reaction to an engine failure in a robbie (most helicopters) is in the yawing of the aircraft. Even coughing engines can scew an airframe up to 10-20 degrees. I remember booting in so much peddle that I actually yawed to the right. It was an unconscious knee jerk reaction, so to speak, but it was instantaneous and the collective followed as a result of the fright. The next reaction was the overspeeding RPM of the rotor system shortly thereafter as I was holding the collective on the stop.
Moral of the story is that you shouldn't stress too much as I truly beleive that your reactions (whilst being current) will kick in well before your alloted 1.1 seconds has even started.
Cheers
The other mechanical problem that R22 pilots faced here in Australia for many months was the rolling off of the drive belts. Two R22's, in one day, were auto'd successfully to the ground due to belts failing............by the same pilot. A bad batch of manufactured belts were sent to Oz. I remember 6 cases of belts failing. If you smell rubber whilst flying......land, as with fuel starvation, it is an instant failure.
In practice, thankfully, you would be surprised at how fast you will react. The biggest reaction to an engine failure in a robbie (most helicopters) is in the yawing of the aircraft. Even coughing engines can scew an airframe up to 10-20 degrees. I remember booting in so much peddle that I actually yawed to the right. It was an unconscious knee jerk reaction, so to speak, but it was instantaneous and the collective followed as a result of the fright. The next reaction was the overspeeding RPM of the rotor system shortly thereafter as I was holding the collective on the stop.
Moral of the story is that you shouldn't stress too much as I truly beleive that your reactions (whilst being current) will kick in well before your alloted 1.1 seconds has even started.
Cheers
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Alderney or Lancashire UK
Posts: 570
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rotorque, You ask for comparative examples.
Enstrom 28/280 allegedly gives about 15 seconds grace in these circumstances, before folding up, and will fly at 75% RRPM - and recover
I remember a thread on pprune where an instructor describes closing throttle and counting to ten before lowering the lever in an Enstrom.
Also, allegedly one is able to close the throttle on the ground, lift, do a 180 and land again on the energy in the rotor system. Don't try this in a R22!
I haven't tried any of these and would choose the Robbo technique with the lever if the enqine quits! The extra time allowance should not make one complacent.
Enstrom 28/280 allegedly gives about 15 seconds grace in these circumstances, before folding up, and will fly at 75% RRPM - and recover
I remember a thread on pprune where an instructor describes closing throttle and counting to ten before lowering the lever in an Enstrom.
Also, allegedly one is able to close the throttle on the ground, lift, do a 180 and land again on the energy in the rotor system. Don't try this in a R22!
I haven't tried any of these and would choose the Robbo technique with the lever if the enqine quits! The extra time allowance should not make one complacent.
Flare Dammit
A good synopsis of auto's.
If I'd had the time, I probably would have attempted to write something similar - but perhaps unwisely, I chose to write a one-para sound-bite, leaving out the detail.
I agree that relying on a rote-learned response for all situations is not ideal - i.e. (as I wrote) it depends on your height-velocity predicament.
Interesting you should equate a Robbo endorsement with having low time/no experience...
If I'd had the time, I probably would have attempted to write something similar - but perhaps unwisely, I chose to write a one-para sound-bite, leaving out the detail.
I agree that relying on a rote-learned response for all situations is not ideal - i.e. (as I wrote) it depends on your height-velocity predicament.
Interesting you should equate a Robbo endorsement with having low time/no experience...
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 88
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well Squiff ol' bean, what you actually wrote was...
"Surely the flare-or-not-to-flare question depends on your heigh/velocity predicament?"
See, I took that as a question by someone who didn't know the correct answer. Sorry for the confusion.
"I was always taught to just lower the bloody lever, keep it in balance and go for the correct speed - depending on your aimpoint."
I think you were taught wrong...or maybe just incompletely. As we've seen, it's not quite that simple.
"Automatically entering a flare could be risky, lest you be left at the wrong height with no speed?"
Again with the ambiguity. YES!
Well anyway mate, have fun with the Robbo transition! But don't worry - I dare say you'll probably pass, even though it may be a tad bit more sophisticated and/or complicated than what you've been flying, but it'll hone and sharpen your skills as you gain knowledge and experience on your path to becoming a professional pilot. Best of luck! Let us know how it comes out.
"Surely the flare-or-not-to-flare question depends on your heigh/velocity predicament?"
See, I took that as a question by someone who didn't know the correct answer. Sorry for the confusion.
"I was always taught to just lower the bloody lever, keep it in balance and go for the correct speed - depending on your aimpoint."
I think you were taught wrong...or maybe just incompletely. As we've seen, it's not quite that simple.
"Automatically entering a flare could be risky, lest you be left at the wrong height with no speed?"
Again with the ambiguity. YES!
Well anyway mate, have fun with the Robbo transition! But don't worry - I dare say you'll probably pass, even though it may be a tad bit more sophisticated and/or complicated than what you've been flying, but it'll hone and sharpen your skills as you gain knowledge and experience on your path to becoming a professional pilot. Best of luck! Let us know how it comes out.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Queensland Australia
Posts: 267
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cran,
I'll start the ball rolling, so to speak.
I'm in Aus but I'm a private pilot and don't do any commercial work but I can give you some numbers which might help.
Current AUS$1 = 57c US and 36 Euro cents
The figures I am giving are somewhat variable around the country. It's a big place with lots of local variation in services and availability of parts costs etc
A new Beta II is in the ball park of AUS$300,000
I have a late lifed Beta with a few hundred hours to run (but 1200 hours to run engine) to it's second rebuild and I've been told its worth about a $100-110K
A timed out hull (either 12yrs or 2200hrs) is worth about AUS$50K.
Cost of an overhaul kit is about AUS $130K
My LAME charges about $65 an hour and parts cost a fortune. Basically double the cost ex-Robinson factory (in US$) plus a bit for transport, local profits and costs. Say maybe 210%.
100 hourly's start at a base rate of about AUS$1K then add costs of anything that needs replacement.
Unscheduled maintenance - pick a figure from the sky.....double it......add grandma's age and granpop's shoe size. Mine's ranged from AUS$6K -$20K (ouch) per year.
Fuel here is about AUS$1 - AUS$1.10 a litre and my R22 uses about 32 litres an hour (averaged out) but the planning burn rate is 34.
Oil costs me about AUS$72 for a carton of 12 quart bottles and I'd use 2 cartons (for scheduled oil changes) plus maybe another half carton a year for top ups.
Insurance I was paying 15% of hull value when I was insuring it. I stopped and just have 3rd party/pax liability now ($1300 a year) Commercial operaters tell me they get much better rates than that.
Hangerage - a bit like unsheduled maintenance - only smaller.
Varies all over the country.
Hope that helps.
I'll start the ball rolling, so to speak.
I'm in Aus but I'm a private pilot and don't do any commercial work but I can give you some numbers which might help.
Current AUS$1 = 57c US and 36 Euro cents
The figures I am giving are somewhat variable around the country. It's a big place with lots of local variation in services and availability of parts costs etc
A new Beta II is in the ball park of AUS$300,000
I have a late lifed Beta with a few hundred hours to run (but 1200 hours to run engine) to it's second rebuild and I've been told its worth about a $100-110K
A timed out hull (either 12yrs or 2200hrs) is worth about AUS$50K.
Cost of an overhaul kit is about AUS $130K
My LAME charges about $65 an hour and parts cost a fortune. Basically double the cost ex-Robinson factory (in US$) plus a bit for transport, local profits and costs. Say maybe 210%.
100 hourly's start at a base rate of about AUS$1K then add costs of anything that needs replacement.
Unscheduled maintenance - pick a figure from the sky.....double it......add grandma's age and granpop's shoe size. Mine's ranged from AUS$6K -$20K (ouch) per year.
Fuel here is about AUS$1 - AUS$1.10 a litre and my R22 uses about 32 litres an hour (averaged out) but the planning burn rate is 34.
Oil costs me about AUS$72 for a carton of 12 quart bottles and I'd use 2 cartons (for scheduled oil changes) plus maybe another half carton a year for top ups.
Insurance I was paying 15% of hull value when I was insuring it. I stopped and just have 3rd party/pax liability now ($1300 a year) Commercial operaters tell me they get much better rates than that.
Hangerage - a bit like unsheduled maintenance - only smaller.
Varies all over the country.
Hope that helps.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 88
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Flare - D
Have you actually got much R22 time?"
None at all, mate. Thank the Lord, none at-friggin-all. I hope you don't expect me to be ashamed. But virtually all of my time is in birds powered by turbines (preferably two), the way God intended. In fact, the last piston-popper I flew was in 1982 when I went for my CPL(H) certs.
I worried there that this might be a "R-22 only" thread, but since the principles apply to *all* single-engine helis, I was sure the mighty R-22 chopper pilots couldn't be that elitist.
I used to like the fragile Robbo. But Lu Z (one "n") has convinced me not to even *look* at one ever again, which of course I won't. I will say this: People who fly R-22s are better pilots than me. Or something.
Have you actually got much R22 time?"
None at all, mate. Thank the Lord, none at-friggin-all. I hope you don't expect me to be ashamed. But virtually all of my time is in birds powered by turbines (preferably two), the way God intended. In fact, the last piston-popper I flew was in 1982 when I went for my CPL(H) certs.
I worried there that this might be a "R-22 only" thread, but since the principles apply to *all* single-engine helis, I was sure the mighty R-22 chopper pilots couldn't be that elitist.
I used to like the fragile Robbo. But Lu Z (one "n") has convinced me not to even *look* at one ever again, which of course I won't. I will say this: People who fly R-22s are better pilots than me. Or something.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: too near London
Posts: 214
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good for you F-D. However, I think that the original question did relate to R22s and as much as your comments are great wrt machines that actually have some rotor inertia to speak of, I suspect that a sudden engine stoppage in a Robbie will benefit from a flare of some sort in most cases, assuming of course you have any airspeed in the first place.....
Big Snogs
Big Snogs
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Cambridge, England
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'd definitely go with the advice implied in VfrPilot's earlier reply - in an R22, first sign of doubt, get the lever down. It buys you a lot more time!
...Engine sounds funny? Do it now!
...Vibration? Do it now!
...T&P's look out-of-whack suddenly Do it now!
...Funny red-coloured glow from somewhere on the panel? Do it now!
THEN you figure out what your concern was, and pull the power in again if it was nothing to worry about.
..actually, I'll add to the list: ...passenger looks very pale and is making groaning noises whilst holding his hand over his/her mouth? Do it quick! (Been there, done that!)
Also true what was said earlier - first sign of an engine losing power in R22 is a yaw. I will never forget my first Practice Engine Failure with my instructor. I smile about it now. Trying to teach me in stages he explained that, first time round, HE would say "Practice Engine Failure...3...2...1...go. Somewhere in the midst of the explanation he also said that HE would chop the throttle on the word GO.
...well, my defence (your honour) is that I was inexperienced, and more than a little apprehensive of this first experience (And I KNOW that doesn't make me unique!), so therefore misunderstood. At the words "Practice Engine Failure", I chopped the throttle shut.....
....and I can say from experience, as a result, that the first reaction from the Robbo was indeed a VERY rapid yaw to the left into a diving turn as I lowered the lever.
...as for the first reaction from my instructor, well I'd better not post that here! :-)
Holly_Copter
...Engine sounds funny? Do it now!
...Vibration? Do it now!
...T&P's look out-of-whack suddenly Do it now!
...Funny red-coloured glow from somewhere on the panel? Do it now!
THEN you figure out what your concern was, and pull the power in again if it was nothing to worry about.
..actually, I'll add to the list: ...passenger looks very pale and is making groaning noises whilst holding his hand over his/her mouth? Do it quick! (Been there, done that!)
Also true what was said earlier - first sign of an engine losing power in R22 is a yaw. I will never forget my first Practice Engine Failure with my instructor. I smile about it now. Trying to teach me in stages he explained that, first time round, HE would say "Practice Engine Failure...3...2...1...go. Somewhere in the midst of the explanation he also said that HE would chop the throttle on the word GO.
...well, my defence (your honour) is that I was inexperienced, and more than a little apprehensive of this first experience (And I KNOW that doesn't make me unique!), so therefore misunderstood. At the words "Practice Engine Failure", I chopped the throttle shut.....
....and I can say from experience, as a result, that the first reaction from the Robbo was indeed a VERY rapid yaw to the left into a diving turn as I lowered the lever.
...as for the first reaction from my instructor, well I'd better not post that here! :-)
Holly_Copter
Holly, how did you manage to fly the rest of the sortie with a broken wrist and a nosebleed?
CFSH debrief ' OK Bloggs, SAS on, visor up, look in - SMACK!!!!'
CFSH debrief ' OK Bloggs, SAS on, visor up, look in - SMACK!!!!'
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Georgia
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It seems that the R22 is the worst of the bunch in not giving much time to react to engine failures. Any one have any experice, "hopefully not" with engine failures in a 206 or r44?
I was wondering about the reaction time needed in some of the other heli's.
I've never had problems in the r22, "knocks on wood", but I do fly them with a bit of a pucker just to stay sharp.
thanks.
I was wondering about the reaction time needed in some of the other heli's.
I've never had problems in the r22, "knocks on wood", but I do fly them with a bit of a pucker just to stay sharp.
thanks.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: London
Posts: 528
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
First throttle chop I ever had was sprung on me, unbriefed, by the factory test pilot at Torrance ten years ago; as a low-time UK-based pilot I'd never even HEARD of such a thing. And yes, I sat there like an idiot with my thumb in my mouth thinking, now what's it doing? while the horn blared and the nose went off on its own. Taught me a lot - firstly, that's what it looks like, and you know what you have to do. But also, it must have been three seconds after the chop before I did the right thing, and the factory pilot didn't have to intervene. Thank you Mr D Tompkins (just looked it up) for the most valuable four seconds flying I ever did.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Georgia
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It seems that the R22 is the worst of the bunch in not giving much time to react to engine failures. Any one have any experice, "hopefully not" with engine failures in a 206 or r44?
I was wondering about the reaction time needed in some of the other heli's.
I've never had problems in the r22, "knocks on wood", but I do fly them with a bit of a pucker just to stay sharp.
thanks.
I was wondering about the reaction time needed in some of the other heli's.
I've never had problems in the r22, "knocks on wood", but I do fly them with a bit of a pucker just to stay sharp.
thanks.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Blackpool, UK
Posts: 187
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
R22 Autos
From what I remember of a 1-day safety course given by Dick Sandford, the 1.1 seconds is based on how much momentum is in the blades - and something to do with it taking 75hp to push them round one revolution at cruise speed/configuration.
As said before though, this 1.1 seconds is purely if you sit there like a dumbass (to use an americanism) listening to the horn and going "derrrrrrr... what do I do".
Your instinctive reaction at the sound of the horn should be to slam the lever down, correct the yaw with the pedals, pull the cyclic back to 60knts and sort yourself out. (All this assumes previous comments about being within a suitable part of the height velovity curve).
Don't forget in the flare you'll need to check the rrpm with the lever to stop it going off the top of the scale.
If the RRPM by the time you finish doing all this is 75% or above. Great! You just have to land it. If its less ....Game over.
R44 has a lot more mass in the blades = more momentum = more time to think = safer. IMHO.
If you haven't done the Dick Sanford 1 day 'safety appreciation' course - you should. Especially if you're a R22 driver. You'll come out thinking "Holy Sh*t". Very sobering stuff. Including the video of a bloke and his wife plummeting vertically downwards in a Robbo with both rotor blades folded upwards in a vee shape.
You CANT be too careful in these things. They can kill you.
The course had a lasting impression on me - as you can see from the above. But I've never taken safety for-granted since.
Don't have nightmares. Just practice practice practice.
p.s. holly_copter - you weren't the only one to chop the throttle and THEN dump the lever on his first auto. Oops.
As said before though, this 1.1 seconds is purely if you sit there like a dumbass (to use an americanism) listening to the horn and going "derrrrrrr... what do I do".
Your instinctive reaction at the sound of the horn should be to slam the lever down, correct the yaw with the pedals, pull the cyclic back to 60knts and sort yourself out. (All this assumes previous comments about being within a suitable part of the height velovity curve).
Don't forget in the flare you'll need to check the rrpm with the lever to stop it going off the top of the scale.
If the RRPM by the time you finish doing all this is 75% or above. Great! You just have to land it. If its less ....Game over.
R44 has a lot more mass in the blades = more momentum = more time to think = safer. IMHO.
If you haven't done the Dick Sanford 1 day 'safety appreciation' course - you should. Especially if you're a R22 driver. You'll come out thinking "Holy Sh*t". Very sobering stuff. Including the video of a bloke and his wife plummeting vertically downwards in a Robbo with both rotor blades folded upwards in a vee shape.
You CANT be too careful in these things. They can kill you.
The course had a lasting impression on me - as you can see from the above. But I've never taken safety for-granted since.
Don't have nightmares. Just practice practice practice.
p.s. holly_copter - you weren't the only one to chop the throttle and THEN dump the lever on his first auto. Oops.
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Turangi
Age: 65
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Compared to a high-inertia rotor, low rotor RPM in a low-inertia rotor is easier to recover, so would this be an advantage for the R22, compared to a H300, when rotor RPM has been left to decay momentarily???
Rotor Horn
Your instinctive reaction at the sound of the horn should be to slam the lever down, correct the yaw with the pedals, pull the cyclic back to 60knts and sort yourself out. (All this assumes previous comments about being within a suitable part of the height velovity curve).
I think it is a good way to stop those flimsy little blades doing a Hills Foldable Clothes Line impression.