Robinson R22 Corner [Archive copy]
Me thinks that it is you that missed the whole point of that window
Verbally-calling-out "...turning left and signing off!"
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Sunrise, Fl. U.S.A.
Posts: 467
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Frank Robinson does very few "pointless" things.
Low time pilots do many.
Then there are what seems to be low post members of rotorheads...
The question was answered, no need to be , hmmmm ... annoying about it.
Low time pilots do many.
Then there are what seems to be low post members of rotorheads...
The question was answered, no need to be , hmmmm ... annoying about it.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Alpes France
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Autorotate a R22 in 1.1s ?
Perhaps I'm becoming paranoid the more I fly but I worry about being able to react quick enough to autorotate in around 1s during flight.
Robinson explains that in cruise we have 1.1s before Nr goes too low, and this low figure is due to a low inertia main rotor.
Do you ever worry about this ? Are you confident you could react so quickly if surprised by an engine failure ? Do you pray to mother Lycoming or do you not even think about it ?
Also, I believe other machines to be much more forgiving but know of no details - perhaps you have a few examples to show how this can vary ?
Robinson explains that in cruise we have 1.1s before Nr goes too low, and this low figure is due to a low inertia main rotor.
Do you ever worry about this ? Are you confident you could react so quickly if surprised by an engine failure ? Do you pray to mother Lycoming or do you not even think about it ?
Also, I believe other machines to be much more forgiving but know of no details - perhaps you have a few examples to show how this can vary ?
PPRuNe Enigma
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Scotland
Posts: 427
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes, when you put it like that 1.1 seconds to react does sound scary, but think about what happens on the roads.
Most drivers do not obey the two-second rule. If you do you are one of the exceptions (and overtakers will slot into the gap you have left
)
So as you're blasting down the outside lane at 80 mph, what is your reaction time if something goes wrong in front of you ?
That's right: probably 1.1 seconds or maybe even less.
Run into the back of a lorry and you'll be just as dead.
Also - unless you run out of fuel it is very unlikely that the engine will stop suddenly, completely, and without any warning.
So check your fuel and your carb heat. Keep an eye on those T's and P's, and be ready and alert.
But don't get paranoid: it's much more dangerous on the roads !
Most drivers do not obey the two-second rule. If you do you are one of the exceptions (and overtakers will slot into the gap you have left
)So as you're blasting down the outside lane at 80 mph, what is your reaction time if something goes wrong in front of you ?
That's right: probably 1.1 seconds or maybe even less.
Run into the back of a lorry and you'll be just as dead.
Also - unless you run out of fuel it is very unlikely that the engine will stop suddenly, completely, and without any warning.
So check your fuel and your carb heat. Keep an eye on those T's and P's, and be ready and alert.
But don't get paranoid: it's much more dangerous on the roads !
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Sunrise, Fl. U.S.A.
Posts: 467
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm with G on this.
When you consider that figure alone, it's scary.
But ...
You'll likely get some sort of warning of impending engine failure before it drops out. (unless out of gas as G stated)
And if you consider that as soon as you begin moving the collective down, you begin to recover, or at least slow the NR decay itself. (Remember max glide is at a low RPM).
The 1.1 is to stalling the blade if you do nothing, if you get the collective moving when you notice something wrong, more likely than not you wouldn't decay to the rotor stall point.
But to let you know, you're not alone on the train of thought, it hits everyone flying robbies every so often.
Another way you could remove some of that trepidation (so to speak) is to go get some dual with a CFI, and brief for some power failures. Mine just states power failure and expects me to react accordingly.
When you consider that figure alone, it's scary.
But ...
You'll likely get some sort of warning of impending engine failure before it drops out. (unless out of gas as G stated)
And if you consider that as soon as you begin moving the collective down, you begin to recover, or at least slow the NR decay itself. (Remember max glide is at a low RPM).
The 1.1 is to stalling the blade if you do nothing, if you get the collective moving when you notice something wrong, more likely than not you wouldn't decay to the rotor stall point.
But to let you know, you're not alone on the train of thought, it hits everyone flying robbies every so often.
Another way you could remove some of that trepidation (so to speak) is to go get some dual with a CFI, and brief for some power failures. Mine just states power failure and expects me to react accordingly.
Senis Semper Fidelis
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Lancashire U K
Posts: 1,288
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Latecomer,
The 1.1 sec reaction is just that, a reaction, to think about it, to start checking gauges or trying to work out what is wrong and unfortunatly we will all be reading about you, the reaction is what you need, after you have got into the Auto mode then start to check your gauges, That is the time to work out what has happened, if nothing then feed in power and proceed, if in fact all is quiet then your reaction was spot on, hope you train and try this regular, for after all your life relies on your deadstick landing ability
Peter B
The 1.1 sec reaction is just that, a reaction, to think about it, to start checking gauges or trying to work out what is wrong and unfortunatly we will all be reading about you, the reaction is what you need, after you have got into the Auto mode then start to check your gauges, That is the time to work out what has happened, if nothing then feed in power and proceed, if in fact all is quiet then your reaction was spot on, hope you train and try this regular, for after all your life relies on your deadstick landing ability
Peter B
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: too near London
Posts: 214
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Because you're worrying about it now, you'll have the right mental attitude when flying - be surprised when the engine keeps running( and not the other way round)
1. The 1.1 relates to the climb - lots of pitch, and assumes you did absolutely nothing as RW-1 says
2. Keep your hand on the collective as much as poss (especially in the climb
3. Fly airspeeds in excess of 60 kts as much as poss (in case you need to convert airspeed into RRPM during the exciting bit at the top)
4. Use flared entries into Auto, despite what folk may say...
5. Fly as high as practical ( in case you need to convert height into airspeed for the bit at the bottom)
You've got longer than you think (but not a lot!) Don't let it stop you having a fun time
1. The 1.1 relates to the climb - lots of pitch, and assumes you did absolutely nothing as RW-1 says
2. Keep your hand on the collective as much as poss (especially in the climb
3. Fly airspeeds in excess of 60 kts as much as poss (in case you need to convert airspeed into RRPM during the exciting bit at the top)
4. Use flared entries into Auto, despite what folk may say...
5. Fly as high as practical ( in case you need to convert height into airspeed for the bit at the bottom)
You've got longer than you think (but not a lot!) Don't let it stop you having a fun time
Join Date: May 2001
Location: London
Posts: 528
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
nonradio:
"Use flared entries into Auto, despite what folk may say..."
What do folk say? I've only ever heard people say "Use flared entries into Auto."
The 1.1 seconds Frank Robinson talks about is if you don't come back on the stick.
I've had demonstrated from 90kts a throttle roll-off in an R22 with no lowering of collective, but Nr maintained solely by steady backward movement of the stick, for second after second after second... I wasn't timing it precisely, but it was pretty impressive.
I have been unable to find evidence of any engine failure in an R22 that was not due to fuel starvation, oil shortage or carb heat mismanagement. Anyone know of one?
"Use flared entries into Auto, despite what folk may say..."
What do folk say? I've only ever heard people say "Use flared entries into Auto."
The 1.1 seconds Frank Robinson talks about is if you don't come back on the stick.
I've had demonstrated from 90kts a throttle roll-off in an R22 with no lowering of collective, but Nr maintained solely by steady backward movement of the stick, for second after second after second... I wasn't timing it precisely, but it was pretty impressive.
I have been unable to find evidence of any engine failure in an R22 that was not due to fuel starvation, oil shortage or carb heat mismanagement. Anyone know of one?
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Sherwood Park Alberta
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I read in one of the NSTB reports a year or two ago about an engine failure in an R 22 from a stuck exhaust valve while in a 100' hover or something to that fact. May be the reason for the valve guide clearance inspection required every 300 hrs?
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: too near London
Posts: 214
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
t'ain't nat'l - you'd be surprised at how many (inc TREs, sorry "FEs") want to see the attitude held constant (!) during entries. Of course each and every one (because I know at least one who did! ;-) ) would flare like ******* given a throttle chop unannounced, I fancy...
I gave up demo-ing that "1...2...3...4.. etc" after a certain h. experienced FI was killed - he was known for very enthusiastic demos of that and Lo G.
Maybe I'm just getting old
I gave up demo-ing that "1...2...3...4.. etc" after a certain h. experienced FI was killed - he was known for very enthusiastic demos of that and Lo G.
Maybe I'm just getting old
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was always taught flared entries to auto, the main reason being to raise the RPM, or give yourself more chance of doing so if you'd been a bit late on the collective. Then in the US someone told me not to. I can't quite remember why; I just remember thinking it seemed to make more sense to keep doing what I'd been taught.
So what is the thinking on both sides of this one?
So what is the thinking on both sides of this one?
Whirly,
The reason why some people get worried about the flared entry in Auto's is that while it's fine in the event of entry from 104% RRPM, in a real failure when RRPM has dropped significantly an enthusiastic flare could quite easily remove your tail!
Still at least you won't have to worry about timing that flare correctly!
With regards the 1.1s......it's in the cruise, in the climb it will be much much less. The moral of this story I guess is climb as gentley as possible (min collective pitch) without comprimising safety and only fly over nice soft flat things.
Either that or spend a few more pennies flying something with a bit more inertia.
Fly gentle
CRAN
The reason why some people get worried about the flared entry in Auto's is that while it's fine in the event of entry from 104% RRPM, in a real failure when RRPM has dropped significantly an enthusiastic flare could quite easily remove your tail!
Still at least you won't have to worry about timing that flare correctly!
With regards the 1.1s......it's in the cruise, in the climb it will be much much less. The moral of this story I guess is climb as gentley as possible (min collective pitch) without comprimising safety and only fly over nice soft flat things.
Either that or spend a few more pennies flying something with a bit more inertia.
Fly gentle
CRAN
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Northern England
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Piston engines very rarely cut out instantly - even running out of fuel is likely to give you a couple of coughs to warn you before power disappears. As a result, the 1.1 second scenario is highly unlikely.
A well-designed and properly maintained piston engine is a very reliable piece of kit.
The key seems to be keeping your hand near the collective, just in case.
My understanding is that a turbine can cut without warning - perhaps some of you high-time turbine pilots can confirm that through personal experience?
A well-designed and properly maintained piston engine is a very reliable piece of kit.
The key seems to be keeping your hand near the collective, just in case.
My understanding is that a turbine can cut without warning - perhaps some of you high-time turbine pilots can confirm that through personal experience?
The Nr decelerationspeed depends on various direct and nondirect factors. Due to the constructiontype, weights of dynamic components, blade profil with specific characteristics,.... there are significant "fixed" differencies between the helicopters.
Flight conditions are responsible for the next input. On a climb Nr will decrease faster than on descent. With an airspeed in the the upper range of the approved speed limits Nr will be decrease faster or on some helicopters it's not possible on higher airspeeds to reestablish a 100% Nr (on steady AR, without flare). A/C weight is important...
Therefore it's not possible to determine the one and only special time to an uncontrollable Nr or uncontrollable flight. And what's the limiting factors? Bladebending with cracks, blade stall, airframe strikes, .... ??? There is a time window, that depends on the named factors.
The publishing of such times is in my opinion to alert the pilots and to give also the unexperienced jocks an impression.
It's not necessary to press water out of the pitch. "Dead man" curve is important and to feel the situation. I'm on safe conditions, unsafe or really dangerous flight conditions.
Flight conditions are responsible for the next input. On a climb Nr will decrease faster than on descent. With an airspeed in the the upper range of the approved speed limits Nr will be decrease faster or on some helicopters it's not possible on higher airspeeds to reestablish a 100% Nr (on steady AR, without flare). A/C weight is important...
Therefore it's not possible to determine the one and only special time to an uncontrollable Nr or uncontrollable flight. And what's the limiting factors? Bladebending with cracks, blade stall, airframe strikes, .... ??? There is a time window, that depends on the named factors.
The publishing of such times is in my opinion to alert the pilots and to give also the unexperienced jocks an impression.
It's not necessary to press water out of the pitch. "Dead man" curve is important and to feel the situation. I'm on safe conditions, unsafe or really dangerous flight conditions.
R22 International Operating Cost
Could anybody help me...
I am trying to determine the cost of operating a new R22 BII and a mid-life R22B commerically in the UK, US & AUS.
Would it be possible for some of our UK, US and AUS operators to give me an honest breakdown... perhaps
Cost of finance (if applic.)
Overhaul Allowance
12 year deval.
Scheduled Maint.
Unscheduled Maint.
Insurance
Hangerage
Fuel
Oil
Others/Misc
Please state the country of your operation.
Many Thanks
CRAN
I am trying to determine the cost of operating a new R22 BII and a mid-life R22B commerically in the UK, US & AUS.
Would it be possible for some of our UK, US and AUS operators to give me an honest breakdown... perhaps
Cost of finance (if applic.)
Overhaul Allowance
12 year deval.
Scheduled Maint.
Unscheduled Maint.
Insurance
Hangerage
Fuel
Oil
Others/Misc
Please state the country of your operation.
Many Thanks
CRAN
I am about to do an endorsement on the Robbo...so am quite interested in this topic.
Surely the flare-or-not-to-flare question depends on your heigh/velocity predicament? I was always taught to just lower the bloody lever, keep it in balance and go for the correct speed - depending on your aimpoint. Automatically entering a flare could be risky, lest you be left at the wrong height with no speed?
Surely the flare-or-not-to-flare question depends on your heigh/velocity predicament? I was always taught to just lower the bloody lever, keep it in balance and go for the correct speed - depending on your aimpoint. Automatically entering a flare could be risky, lest you be left at the wrong height with no speed?
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Alpes France
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My main focus is on the 'surprise' aspect.
It's true that the piston engine will generally warn us before a major failure, and of course, we should all aim for flight parameters that 'help' the autorotation (speed, rate of climb, height...).
It's also true that we learn a 'reaction' to move before we think.
And maybe that should just be 'get the collective down' asap.
Flare or not on entry - is it not a theoretical question ? Given the (huge) surprise of having to aurotate, I would agree to dropping the collective, then stabilising balance & speed - if the surprise is real, this is the reaction moving before my mind starts thinking.
To me, this (re)action should be as simple as possible. And practising this is how be build the re in the action no ?
A recent overspeeded engine failed for a friend (who was hovering and is OK) and real un-announced engine failures do happen.
It does seem that I might be right to be a little uneasy whilst VOR or COM twiddling, or even touching my map...
I cannot say that all the time I fly, I'm ready for it... I wish it was true but it's not.
If this was 3 or 4s then we're in another world no ? Is it only large turbines that can offer such a margin ?
It's true that the piston engine will generally warn us before a major failure, and of course, we should all aim for flight parameters that 'help' the autorotation (speed, rate of climb, height...).
It's also true that we learn a 'reaction' to move before we think.
And maybe that should just be 'get the collective down' asap.
Flare or not on entry - is it not a theoretical question ? Given the (huge) surprise of having to aurotate, I would agree to dropping the collective, then stabilising balance & speed - if the surprise is real, this is the reaction moving before my mind starts thinking.
To me, this (re)action should be as simple as possible. And practising this is how be build the re in the action no ?
A recent overspeeded engine failed for a friend (who was hovering and is OK) and real un-announced engine failures do happen.
It does seem that I might be right to be a little uneasy whilst VOR or COM twiddling, or even touching my map...
I cannot say that all the time I fly, I'm ready for it... I wish it was true but it's not.
If this was 3 or 4s then we're in another world no ? Is it only large turbines that can offer such a margin ?
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: England
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've never had an engine failure on a single engined helicopter, thank god, but one of my instructors did once. I see that there has been some discussion as to the best method of entering autorotation. His biggest point was that it will not happen the way you practice it.
When the nasty instructor says "practice engine failure, GO", you smoothly lower the lever and keep the aircraft straight with pedal. In reality, he didn't immediately realise that the engine had failed. The first thing he noticed was that his Huey was flying sideways due the pedal he was using to counteract the tourque that the engine wasn't producing anymore. He was still trying to figure that one out when the low NR warner went off. Luckily the Huey has legendary amounts of inertia in the blades and he was able to recover.
I accept that he was flying a turbine and that pistons are less likely to cut suddenly, but even so, it is impossible to truly simulate an engine failure into autorotation.
When the nasty instructor says "practice engine failure, GO", you smoothly lower the lever and keep the aircraft straight with pedal. In reality, he didn't immediately realise that the engine had failed. The first thing he noticed was that his Huey was flying sideways due the pedal he was using to counteract the tourque that the engine wasn't producing anymore. He was still trying to figure that one out when the low NR warner went off. Luckily the Huey has legendary amounts of inertia in the blades and he was able to recover.
I accept that he was flying a turbine and that pistons are less likely to cut suddenly, but even so, it is impossible to truly simulate an engine failure into autorotation.
Two flight instructors, with together more 8000 h on helicopters and more than 4000h only on Bell 206 on a checkride. Big airfield for us alone. Let's going to see an AR not the normal (entering, hundreds of time practiced and teached) way ... Simulated hostile area take off, light a/c, in 400 ft ground, IAS 50 kt, climb rate >1200 ft/min, 100% Nr, rolling the engine to idle. Great astonishment on the next seconds about what happens. Rapidly decreasing NR (<90% initially), immediately audio warning, in line with the same way, rapidly decreasing IAS (<35 kt). Lowering the pitch to hold the Nr decrease, pushing the stick to get some IAS and to level or nosedown the helo.
First impressions on our mind to get low G, MR vibrations. Never experienced bad a/c control (aerodynamics and it needs time to establish the AR airflow on the blades). Really impressive descending rate.
Pushing the stick and making airspeed decelerate Nr (on AR transition, also aerodynamics) and a light a/c on AR with complete downed pitch (without flare) works hard to get some extra MR rounds.
What is to do? Flare for Nr, or going for 50-60 kt AR Speed?
Seconds running away, good old earth, we are coming...
Story ended in the badest AR touch down, i have ever made with a very long running distance on the ground and praise the lord and the light a/c, without any a/c damage. (Nr all the time no more than 95%, landed with leveled a/c, IAS 35 kt, and skidding on the ground)
Eye to eye view between us, never, never on that way...
Hey all you single engine helo drivers! On how much missions you have started the flight with an equal entry situation???????
How much pilots makes thousends of hours around the world alldays within the "dead man". Longlining, cropdusting, seismic or measuring missions,....,.....,.....,.....,............... ???
But don't worry! Flying is leaving the ground with technical assistance. And how much important parts could fail on a helicopter ?
(Only gearboxes, drive shafts, controls, engines, blades, fuel systems, ignition, hydraulics and some other parts ...........
And unfortunately tec failures ar not the specific dangerous part of our job
If your mind is blocked now, stay on the ground and start a career in a tax office! But sometimes you have to drive a car and the brakes could fail.....
First impressions on our mind to get low G, MR vibrations. Never experienced bad a/c control (aerodynamics and it needs time to establish the AR airflow on the blades). Really impressive descending rate.
Pushing the stick and making airspeed decelerate Nr (on AR transition, also aerodynamics) and a light a/c on AR with complete downed pitch (without flare) works hard to get some extra MR rounds.
What is to do? Flare for Nr, or going for 50-60 kt AR Speed?
Seconds running away, good old earth, we are coming...
Story ended in the badest AR touch down, i have ever made with a very long running distance on the ground and praise the lord and the light a/c, without any a/c damage. (Nr all the time no more than 95%, landed with leveled a/c, IAS 35 kt, and skidding on the ground)
Eye to eye view between us, never, never on that way...
Hey all you single engine helo drivers! On how much missions you have started the flight with an equal entry situation???????
How much pilots makes thousends of hours around the world alldays within the "dead man". Longlining, cropdusting, seismic or measuring missions,....,.....,.....,.....,............... ???
But don't worry! Flying is leaving the ground with technical assistance. And how much important parts could fail on a helicopter
?(Only gearboxes, drive shafts, controls, engines, blades, fuel systems, ignition, hydraulics and some other parts ...........
And unfortunately tec failures ar not the specific dangerous part of our job
If your mind is blocked now, stay on the ground and start a career in a tax office! But sometimes you have to drive a car and the brakes could fail.....
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 88
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Obviously, as tecpilot pointed out, the actual auto entry that you will use depends a lot on which flight regime you're in.
Helicopters like the B47 and such have cruise speeds that are only slightly above their autorotation speeds, so it's not surprising that inexperienced or low-time pilots like What-ho Squiffy are confused as to auto entry techniques.
However, if you're in a faster ship and you're cruising along, fat, dumb and happy at a speed above your "best auto" speed when the engine quits, then it is proper to make an aft cyclic input either slightly before (if you happen to be tuning a comm radio with your left hand) or simultaneously with lowering the collective. PHI trains this technique and only half-jokingly calls it "graduate-level flying." The idea being: don't just simply slam the collective down when the donk bites the big one.
This gives you the advantage of TIME, mates. As you decelerate to best-auto speed, you can look for a spot, turn into the wind, crap your britches, or make a mayday call on the radio.
Lowering the collective alone at high a/s has a tendency to make the nose drop. At high a/s, lowering the nose and the collective will produce a very nice sink rate, indeed! This is obviously not desireable.
At lower speeds and altitudes (at or below best-auto speed), it should also be obvious that making an aft cyclic input would be wrong. In this case, all you can do is lower the collective as expeditiously as possible and land right underneath where you are. Good luck. And if you have enough altitude, you *might* have time to lower the nose to pick up "best auto."
A worst-case-scenario for any helicopter would be an engine-failure during a high-power/low airspeed take-off. It seems that the R-22 is particularly unforgiving in this area. For this reason, it would probably be wise to avoid such a technique in a Robbo unless absolutely necessary (e.g. people shooting at you, or no other alternative).
In cruise flight, R-22 pilots can probably tune their radios, fold their maps or pick their noses with impunity, safe in the knowlege that if they do run out of gas and the engine quits, the rotor won't come to a complete stop in the time it takes them to get their boogery fingers from their mouth to the collective.
But on take-off, HOTAS at all times!
Helicopters like the B47 and such have cruise speeds that are only slightly above their autorotation speeds, so it's not surprising that inexperienced or low-time pilots like What-ho Squiffy are confused as to auto entry techniques.
However, if you're in a faster ship and you're cruising along, fat, dumb and happy at a speed above your "best auto" speed when the engine quits, then it is proper to make an aft cyclic input either slightly before (if you happen to be tuning a comm radio with your left hand) or simultaneously with lowering the collective. PHI trains this technique and only half-jokingly calls it "graduate-level flying." The idea being: don't just simply slam the collective down when the donk bites the big one.
This gives you the advantage of TIME, mates. As you decelerate to best-auto speed, you can look for a spot, turn into the wind, crap your britches, or make a mayday call on the radio.
Lowering the collective alone at high a/s has a tendency to make the nose drop. At high a/s, lowering the nose and the collective will produce a very nice sink rate, indeed! This is obviously not desireable.
At lower speeds and altitudes (at or below best-auto speed), it should also be obvious that making an aft cyclic input would be wrong. In this case, all you can do is lower the collective as expeditiously as possible and land right underneath where you are. Good luck. And if you have enough altitude, you *might* have time to lower the nose to pick up "best auto."
A worst-case-scenario for any helicopter would be an engine-failure during a high-power/low airspeed take-off. It seems that the R-22 is particularly unforgiving in this area. For this reason, it would probably be wise to avoid such a technique in a Robbo unless absolutely necessary (e.g. people shooting at you, or no other alternative).
In cruise flight, R-22 pilots can probably tune their radios, fold their maps or pick their noses with impunity, safe in the knowlege that if they do run out of gas and the engine quits, the rotor won't come to a complete stop in the time it takes them to get their boogery fingers from their mouth to the collective.
But on take-off, HOTAS at all times!