Robinson R22 Corner [Archive copy]
Join Date: Mar 2002
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Thanks for all the advice guys.. .. .From what's been said, my modest flying (<100 hrs pa) means it would make more sense to stick with the ad hoc flying of the school machine and build my hours up as my bank balance will allow.. .. .I'll have to wait for the lottery win after all <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> . .. .cheers
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Rotor Horn / Nr Fairy . .. .Could this be three way schizoprenia.. .. .Same game, same toys, same IR35 b*st*rds ?. .. .I own an R22 and think that the £35 per hour is probably the factory rose tinted glasses figure.. .It neglects running cost like fuel, maintenance and insurance, like the other guys have already said.. .. .Helinut,. .Funny i am doing exactly what you did (the loss making AFI hours in your own machine route) and I thought I was the only one.. .. .My R22 is time ex in about 3 weeks so I'll do some figures and work out what it cost me to run it for the last 15 months, Ill e-mail it to anyone who wants it when its finished.. .. .Cheers. .. .Vee
Join Date: Nov 2001
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R22 Hobbs - connected through "GAGES" circuit breaker?
I came across a rental R22 recently that had the GAGES breaker pulled - by the CFI that had previously flown it, right after a 100hr maintenance. I was doing the push-button light tests during my preflight, and couldn't get the MR TEMP light to come on, so I thought the bulb was out. Turns out the breaker had been pulled...
It hit me a while later, that maybe the breaker was pulled to prevent some flight time being logged. Thus, my question...
If the answer is "yes", then I have to decide what I'm going to do about this. I could get a low-time CFI in a lot of trouble if this is the case, and I decide I have to report it, so I'm hoping that I'm wrong about it (so I don't have that moral dilemma). I just can't figure out another reason why he would've pulled the c/b.
thx,
Dave B.
It hit me a while later, that maybe the breaker was pulled to prevent some flight time being logged. Thus, my question...
If the answer is "yes", then I have to decide what I'm going to do about this. I could get a low-time CFI in a lot of trouble if this is the case, and I decide I have to report it, so I'm hoping that I'm wrong about it (so I don't have that moral dilemma). I just can't figure out another reason why he would've pulled the c/b.
thx,
Dave B.
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The robinson in standard configuration does not have a hourmeter switch on the collective.
In the states, flight time is the only time that needs to be recorded for maintenance.
This person might have been pulling the breaker at the end of his flight while sitting on the ground, so the run time on the ground would not be recorded.
However, Robinson does not authorize the installation of a collective switch. If they get a ship in for overhaul that has one installed, they adjust the ship total time to account for an average run time on the ground for the overhaul period in question.
So, you have a conflict with what the FAA requires by rule, and the requirements of the manufacturer.
Good luck.
In the states, flight time is the only time that needs to be recorded for maintenance.
This person might have been pulling the breaker at the end of his flight while sitting on the ground, so the run time on the ground would not be recorded.
However, Robinson does not authorize the installation of a collective switch. If they get a ship in for overhaul that has one installed, they adjust the ship total time to account for an average run time on the ground for the overhaul period in question.
So, you have a conflict with what the FAA requires by rule, and the requirements of the manufacturer.
Good luck.
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It is interesting how the flight time is logged differently. For Sikorsky, the flight time is exactly that - off the ground, you are logging flight time. We actually had an operator try to make ground time count, so they could bill their customers at the same rate while waiting for IFR release at Aberdeen. We told them to hover while waiting!
The US Army logs it as the time from liftoff till you come to a stop, so the end of the flight ground time is included!
The way a manufacturer asks that you log it should count, as in the Robinson case, they figure some ground time into the mix for calculating overhaul times, so it washes out anyway.
The US Army logs it as the time from liftoff till you come to a stop, so the end of the flight ground time is included!
The way a manufacturer asks that you log it should count, as in the Robinson case, they figure some ground time into the mix for calculating overhaul times, so it washes out anyway.
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Some more data: the R22 handbook that I have shows the hour meter being connected through the GAGES c/b in the R22 and R22 HP, but is not shown at all on the schematic for the R22 Alpha/Beta. The ship I'm talking about is a Beta. (It's curious that the hour meter is shown on both the schematic and c/b panel diagram for the 22/HP, but not shown on either for the Alpha/Beta...)
It also says that the hour meter is "actuated by engine oil pressure", unlike how some other ships' have it set up (apparently a collective or squat switch?).
And one other thing that I didn't mention in my original post - I *believe* that the a/c log book showed the Hobbs time that I started with as being after the 100 hr maintenance - *not* after the short flight that the CFI did. I'm not positive about this though - it didn't trigger a warning flag with me at the time.
I may be making more of this than need be, but my initial concern was that this high-time (2050+ hours) R22 has even more time on it than documented, and I don't want to fly one that's over-timed... This particular ship is at an airport that is on the ocean, so it endures even more corrosion and such than the average ship in the States.
cheers,
Dave B.
It also says that the hour meter is "actuated by engine oil pressure", unlike how some other ships' have it set up (apparently a collective or squat switch?).
And one other thing that I didn't mention in my original post - I *believe* that the a/c log book showed the Hobbs time that I started with as being after the 100 hr maintenance - *not* after the short flight that the CFI did. I'm not positive about this though - it didn't trigger a warning flag with me at the time.
I may be making more of this than need be, but my initial concern was that this high-time (2050+ hours) R22 has even more time on it than documented, and I don't want to fly one that's over-timed... This particular ship is at an airport that is on the ocean, so it endures even more corrosion and such than the average ship in the States.
cheers,
Dave B.
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Interestin'.
Where I fly, the R22 Hobbs meters are activated by oil pressure (and can't be by-passed on the circuit breakers) while the R44s have a collective switch.
When recording flight time in the tech logs of the 22s we knock off 0.1 from each flight for ground running. With the 44s, we log the Hobbs time in full.
There is a formula agreed with the CAA for calculating total time when using the system we use for the 22s. They don't run the full 2200 hours TBO, but I think we win a little bit.
I don't think it's possible any more to bypass the Hobbs meter in an R22. I believe (and stand to be corrected) that in early models you could cheat by turning off the master switch in flight, but now the Hobbs bypasses the master.
Where I fly, the R22 Hobbs meters are activated by oil pressure (and can't be by-passed on the circuit breakers) while the R44s have a collective switch.
When recording flight time in the tech logs of the 22s we knock off 0.1 from each flight for ground running. With the 44s, we log the Hobbs time in full.
There is a formula agreed with the CAA for calculating total time when using the system we use for the 22s. They don't run the full 2200 hours TBO, but I think we win a little bit.
I don't think it's possible any more to bypass the Hobbs meter in an R22. I believe (and stand to be corrected) that in early models you could cheat by turning off the master switch in flight, but now the Hobbs bypasses the master.
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T'aint -
I stand corrected on the R44 - I thought it was an engine pressure switch.
What you say about old and new R22s makes sense, when you look at the schematics of each (as I noted in my previous post). Although, I think that you could deactivate the Hobbs just by pulling the GAGES c/b - you wouldn't have to switch off the master.
So, I suppose I'm barking up a tree here; the CFI had the breaker pulled for some reason that I may never know.
I could always ask him, I suppose 8^) .
Thanks for the info,
Dave B.
I stand corrected on the R44 - I thought it was an engine pressure switch.
What you say about old and new R22s makes sense, when you look at the schematics of each (as I noted in my previous post). Although, I think that you could deactivate the Hobbs just by pulling the GAGES c/b - you wouldn't have to switch off the master.
So, I suppose I'm barking up a tree here; the CFI had the breaker pulled for some reason that I may never know.
I could always ask him, I suppose 8^) .
Thanks for the info,
Dave B.
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So they are running the ship to the 2200 hour overhaul limit...
Lycoming only authorizes operating the engine to 2200 hours if the helicopter is used a minimum of 40 hours per month during the overhaul period of the engine in question...
See Note 11 of SI1009AQ found at:
http://www.lycoming.textron.com/supp...ns_recent.html
Lycoming only authorizes operating the engine to 2200 hours if the helicopter is used a minimum of 40 hours per month during the overhaul period of the engine in question...
See Note 11 of SI1009AQ found at:
http://www.lycoming.textron.com/supp...ns_recent.html
I haven't flown an R22 for a long time (thank goodness....), but I definitely recall that the Robinson manual REQUIRES that engine time is logged in the Maintenance Release/Tech log/whatever it's called in your country for maintenance purposes. No flight time, O.1 variations, etc.; I remember because I had to pay for the maintenance, and that's what Mr Robinson requires!
Nick, it is quite common for an operator to charge the client for engine time, regardless of the flight time. More clients are clueing up to this, and the bigger ones try to have a contract clause to only pay flight time, but currently we (and just about every other helicopter operator in Australia) will charge engine time. If the client keeps us running on the ground for a passenger change or hot refuel, that's our bonus. Otherwise, the hourly rate will have to increase quite substantially, or there will be a lot of upset clients when we shut down because they aren't ready, with a further delay until we can restart.
Cold hard fact of commercial life. Don't you pay a taxi when it's stationary in a traffic jam?
Nick, it is quite common for an operator to charge the client for engine time, regardless of the flight time. More clients are clueing up to this, and the bigger ones try to have a contract clause to only pay flight time, but currently we (and just about every other helicopter operator in Australia) will charge engine time. If the client keeps us running on the ground for a passenger change or hot refuel, that's our bonus. Otherwise, the hourly rate will have to increase quite substantially, or there will be a lot of upset clients when we shut down because they aren't ready, with a further delay until we can restart.
Cold hard fact of commercial life. Don't you pay a taxi when it's stationary in a traffic jam?
The fact of the matter here is that the operator (as you correctly assume) is flogging time.
It happens copiously in Australia and NZ and is nothing new. Unfortunately it is hard to prove as the maintenance staff will just say they were unaware and it must've been messed with elsewhere.
These operators are crooks and it is something that regulatory authorities must stop. One of the last piston operators I worked for admitted they used to log 1 in 3 while mustering. I have taken an aircraft out that showed 1.2hrs in the MR in place of 6+ hrs the day before.
The only way to catch them is through fuel usage but even then that can be attributed to ground running, using in cars, generators..........
Either CASA are idiots and turn a blind eye to this or they have never heard of the old pull the breaker trick. Often they wire it through the rotating beacon and when you see a robbie with it off, you can almost be certain that it's wired into the clock. This little trick works whether it is a 44 or a 22.
Welcome to the "real' world of aviation.
It happens copiously in Australia and NZ and is nothing new. Unfortunately it is hard to prove as the maintenance staff will just say they were unaware and it must've been messed with elsewhere.
These operators are crooks and it is something that regulatory authorities must stop. One of the last piston operators I worked for admitted they used to log 1 in 3 while mustering. I have taken an aircraft out that showed 1.2hrs in the MR in place of 6+ hrs the day before.
The only way to catch them is through fuel usage but even then that can be attributed to ground running, using in cars, generators..........
Either CASA are idiots and turn a blind eye to this or they have never heard of the old pull the breaker trick. Often they wire it through the rotating beacon and when you see a robbie with it off, you can almost be certain that it's wired into the clock. This little trick works whether it is a 44 or a 22.
Welcome to the "real' world of aviation.
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re: allegations - if the location and operator remain anonymous, then it can hardly be called that. I was just trying to gather data on the R22' hour meter and how it's hooked up.
I have already decided not to fret anymore about this. But the discussion has been interesting (as are many here at PPRUNE).
blue skies,
Dave B.
I have already decided not to fret anymore about this. But the discussion has been interesting (as are many here at PPRUNE).
blue skies,
Dave B.
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blave
You're right, I should have said 'jumping to conclusions on precious little evidence'. But I didn't mean your posts anyway.
If anything like that happens again at the same place or anywhere else, just ask why. Not in an accusing way, but in an 'always willing to learn way.'
Personally, if the explanation was just 'to stop the Hobbs rolling on during the shutting-down procedure' I don't think you need to worry, especially if the previous use was a lesson with an early stage student. An extra 0.1 can be a lot of money, certainly here in the UK.
I disagree with John Eacott.
Yes, you do pay a taxi when it's stationary in a traffic jam, but not at the same cost per minute as if he's travelling.
I think the Hobbs rolling on when the heli is on the ground encourages people to rush their checks pre departure and cut corners during shutdown. If I had to pay for my flying, I'd resent it.
You're right, I should have said 'jumping to conclusions on precious little evidence'. But I didn't mean your posts anyway.
If anything like that happens again at the same place or anywhere else, just ask why. Not in an accusing way, but in an 'always willing to learn way.'
Personally, if the explanation was just 'to stop the Hobbs rolling on during the shutting-down procedure' I don't think you need to worry, especially if the previous use was a lesson with an early stage student. An extra 0.1 can be a lot of money, certainly here in the UK.
I disagree with John Eacott.
Yes, you do pay a taxi when it's stationary in a traffic jam, but not at the same cost per minute as if he's travelling.
I think the Hobbs rolling on when the heli is on the ground encourages people to rush their checks pre departure and cut corners during shutdown. If I had to pay for my flying, I'd resent it.
R22 overspeeds
A quick question to all you R22 gurus out there. I found out over the weekend that it is possible to overspeed an R22 if you inadvertantly switch off the governor while it's winding up to 104%.
Scenario - you've finished all the checks, and are rolling on the throttle from 75%, simultaneously switching on the governor with your left thumb. This is something you've done 5 times in the past 2 hours so it's not as if you've not done it before. Next thing you know both the engine and rotor RPM are off the scale. While your brain panics, the needles stay there for 3 - 4 seconds before you roll off the throttle again, then spend the next 5 seconds idly musing if it's ok to fly. After the idle musings, it's time to shut down and speak to an instructor, who decides the aircraft should stay where it is until it's been looked at.
How can this happen ? "Hamfisted" springs to mind but why if the governor is switched off why should the now mechanical machine decide to go into overdrive ? Answers on a blank cheque, please, to pay for the damage !
And - no prizes for guessing why I'm asking the question.
Scenario - you've finished all the checks, and are rolling on the throttle from 75%, simultaneously switching on the governor with your left thumb. This is something you've done 5 times in the past 2 hours so it's not as if you've not done it before. Next thing you know both the engine and rotor RPM are off the scale. While your brain panics, the needles stay there for 3 - 4 seconds before you roll off the throttle again, then spend the next 5 seconds idly musing if it's ok to fly. After the idle musings, it's time to shut down and speak to an instructor, who decides the aircraft should stay where it is until it's been looked at.
How can this happen ? "Hamfisted" springs to mind but why if the governor is switched off why should the now mechanical machine decide to go into overdrive ? Answers on a blank cheque, please, to pay for the damage !
And - no prizes for guessing why I'm asking the question.
Join Date: Feb 2002
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No consolation, but I was always taught not to bring up the revs manually, but to allow the governor to do the work for you. It has two benefits - testing the governor and stopping accidental overspeeds.
Sorry, didn't read the message properly first time, especially the bit about the off-the-scale. No, not a common occurrence at all.
Good luck
Sorry, didn't read the message properly first time, especially the bit about the off-the-scale. No, not a common occurrence at all.
Good luck
Join Date: Nov 2000
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Hey Nr,
I'm assuming that at some point the gov was turned off, etc.
The issue might be that from 75% the gov makes a semi-large throttle movement to initially bring up RPM to 104%, when it gets inadvertantly shutoff, you are at manual, however you need to reduce that throttle, as that initial opening might be enough to cause an overspeed. (Would that sound plausable? If you suffer a failure or it's switched off, the throttle has been opened already)
Normally, as the RPM approaches 104%, you might feel the throttle retard slightly, as the gov then keeps it at 104% (Just my guess)
I like to bring up Nr to 80-85% before turning on the gov, mainly (whether I'm right or not
) I feel it won't have to make as large a throttle movement to get to 104% from that point.
I'll try out both scenarios this week when I go flying to see if what I'm saying may occur.
I'm assuming that at some point the gov was turned off, etc.
The issue might be that from 75% the gov makes a semi-large throttle movement to initially bring up RPM to 104%, when it gets inadvertantly shutoff, you are at manual, however you need to reduce that throttle, as that initial opening might be enough to cause an overspeed. (Would that sound plausable? If you suffer a failure or it's switched off, the throttle has been opened already)
Normally, as the RPM approaches 104%, you might feel the throttle retard slightly, as the gov then keeps it at 104% (Just my guess)
I like to bring up Nr to 80-85% before turning on the gov, mainly (whether I'm right or not
) I feel it won't have to make as large a throttle movement to get to 104% from that point.I'll try out both scenarios this week when I go flying to see if what I'm saying may occur.
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I seem to remember that there is a capture range for the governor below which it will not take over control of the RPM. Normally I wind it up to about 80% or so, then switch it on and let the governor do it from there. I cannot remember ever having manually cranked it up at the same time as switching it on though.
I guess most overspeeds result from not watching the RRPM in autorotation rather than governor control.
There is a frequent contributor to this forum who has looked into this problem in great depth, and I am sure that person will contribute to the discussion.
I guess most overspeeds result from not watching the RRPM in autorotation rather than governor control.
There is a frequent contributor to this forum who has looked into this problem in great depth, and I am sure that person will contribute to the discussion.
Well, my habit is to flick the governor on at 75% momentarily before rolling the throttle on, and once it gets to 80 and the governor captures then I leave it to its job.
What pissies me off is that I've done that for ages, spent 3 weeks in the US doing exactly the same, and one day it goes wrong. Couldn't explain why until I spoke to an instructor. BTW, I'm in good company - this is the same machine which was offline last year when an instructor and student let it get away from them, so I don't feel too bad !! At least I didn't fly it, and no-one got hurt.
What pissies me off is that I've done that for ages, spent 3 weeks in the US doing exactly the same, and one day it goes wrong. Couldn't explain why until I spoke to an instructor. BTW, I'm in good company - this is the same machine which was offline last year when an instructor and student let it get away from them, so I don't feel too bad !! At least I didn't fly it, and no-one got hurt.