Heading for disaster
controller
I have come to the conclusion that topendtorque is a bit of a bushie or at least spent a lot of time in the bush. I would guess that maybe he may have a good collection of his own poetry somewhere .It's a language of its own, partly cryptic, partly abstract and partly romantic. A bit like the "where for art thou's" of your fine country. Except a bit more weathered and not quite as poofy
For those that are familiar with it it's a dying trait which is a bit of a shame.
You might want to read it a few more times cause there is a lot of good points in there.
I have come to the conclusion that topendtorque is a bit of a bushie or at least spent a lot of time in the bush. I would guess that maybe he may have a good collection of his own poetry somewhere .It's a language of its own, partly cryptic, partly abstract and partly romantic. A bit like the "where for art thou's" of your fine country. Except a bit more weathered and not quite as poofy
For those that are familiar with it it's a dying trait which is a bit of a shame.
You might want to read it a few more times cause there is a lot of good points in there.
Topendtorque,
Ah but we have missed Quids for this life....
Ah but we have missed Quids for this life....
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Bellfest,
Silly me for thinking that you were having a go at low-hour instructors. At least now we know where you stand. Let's try not to mix the two issues then.
Of all the pompous and patronising statements I have read, this has to be up there! Make a point please.
OK, I admit it. The two are worlds apart. Afterall, primary school teaching is WAY ahead in its application of proven educational philosophy than the aviation world, which is just as well, seeing as primary school teaching is WAY harder than flight instruction. One day, maybe the aviation industry will realise that it doesn't really know sh1t about how to educate its pilots of tomorrow (as evidenced in half the posts in this thread).......
This has got to be one of the most inefficient 'learning' strategies I have ever come across!!! Learning by osmosis?! Come on...
........and will look to teachers of children to help it. Primary school teachers are probably the most uptodate and effective practitioners of proven education philosophy you'll find. BTW the fundimentals of flight training are the same as for any kind of education, including primary schooling.
This is the problem with our industry. Not enough teachers who are pilots; Too many pilots who think that they can teach.
Absolutely true. I don't think hours=quality though. They can help, though.
Absolutely untrue. Higher attainment targets (authority imposed standards) do little to raise the quality of education, and then only indirectly.
As I keep saying, more hours doesn't equal better teaching and learning. What this industry needs is more emphasis on the instruction of instructors. The primary syllabii to me (FAA, CAA, CASA etc) seem adequate to produce a pilot who is safe within the confines and boundries of his training. The problem is that the instructors (young and old) are usually not trained in education technique. Due to financial forces, the place of flight training has sunk to the bottom of the industry, where we would all agree it should be at the top. Hence the reason why the companies bear the task (and responsibility) to do the 'post ab initio' instruction...this is when 10000 hrs prove their worth to a lower time pilot, not during the first X number of basic training hours.
Someone mentioned the mentoring and probation periods seen in the medical world. To me, this is the way flight training will evolve. Basic training in flight school with basic instructors, then out to industry where 10000 hr pilots will fill you with their specialist knowledge. Just like the medical student who does his basic medical course, then goes out to specialise in say, brain surgery.
Slowly, aviation is catching up with the rest of the world in the realisation that, old and grey is not the be all and end all that those old-grey folk (who are usually the ones to make the rules) think it is. The business world saw this in the last 10 years, and started to send their Chairmen / CEOs / Mangers to 'leadership' courses. I wonder how many training captains out there today have been on anything more than a 1-day course...and now they are supposed to be training others.
Bellfest, you got me talking about a subject which I am serious about. If you accept that the paradigm shift I spoke of is happening, raising the barre or having higher time instructor pilots is a separate issue. I'm talking about Education in Avaition. It took me 4 years to cover an education degree. Most instructors get little more than a week or 2 week 'crash-course' in education. To me, that is where the main problem lies. The flight experience of the 'lower-time' instructors is enough to cover the course that they teach. What is lacking is their understanding of 'what makes a good teacher'. 10000 hours won't make a poor teacher good. The quality of education in aviation is generally terrible, from ab initio education all the way up the ladder to company line training pilots. What is needed is more focus on the educators. The standards must be more rigidly enforced and clearer understanding of what the ndustry standards aim to acheive (i.e basic training only) by hiring companies. This will in turn require the companies then to take on more responsibility in terms of specialist field training, through mentorship and probation programs.
As I said...the times, they are a-changing. Aviation is much more accessible now. Pilots today haven't got dads who flew in the great war and grandads who were barnstormers in the 30s. No longer can companies assume that their new hire has been in the hangar for years listening to the old bold pilots telling tales of yore. Companies (and some individuals) need to accept this change.
cl12pv2s
P.S Before anyone slams me, I'm not saying that all people without 'education degrees' are poor teachers. There is such a thing as a 'natural teacher'. Someone who is simply good at imparting knowledge to others with no education training.
Unfortunately about 50% of Joe Averages aren't natural teachers, and by nature of the industry's history, most pilots aren't eith
That is the issue. I don't blame the low houred instructor. I blame the authorities as I said in my first post.
I think that it is as much detriment to the instructors as it is to the student to think that they have a right to be doing what they are doing, thanks to the authority.
It's a bit like chalk and cheese to compare this to primary school teaching but if we must
in an ideal world the 200hr guy would sweep the hangar floor, learn the business from the bottom up, sit left seat to a more experienced pilot and get some wisdom, maybe fly easy photo flights, ferry flights etc
........and will look to teachers of children to help it. Primary school teachers are probably the most uptodate and effective practitioners of proven education philosophy you'll find. BTW the fundimentals of flight training are the same as for any kind of education, including primary schooling.
This is the problem with our industry. Not enough teachers who are pilots; Too many pilots who think that they can teach.
A lot is retained from your flight training so it should be good quality.
There is a much better guarantee of this if the bar is raised.
As I keep saying, more hours doesn't equal better teaching and learning. What this industry needs is more emphasis on the instruction of instructors. The primary syllabii to me (FAA, CAA, CASA etc) seem adequate to produce a pilot who is safe within the confines and boundries of his training. The problem is that the instructors (young and old) are usually not trained in education technique. Due to financial forces, the place of flight training has sunk to the bottom of the industry, where we would all agree it should be at the top. Hence the reason why the companies bear the task (and responsibility) to do the 'post ab initio' instruction...this is when 10000 hrs prove their worth to a lower time pilot, not during the first X number of basic training hours.
Someone mentioned the mentoring and probation periods seen in the medical world. To me, this is the way flight training will evolve. Basic training in flight school with basic instructors, then out to industry where 10000 hr pilots will fill you with their specialist knowledge. Just like the medical student who does his basic medical course, then goes out to specialise in say, brain surgery.
Slowly, aviation is catching up with the rest of the world in the realisation that, old and grey is not the be all and end all that those old-grey folk (who are usually the ones to make the rules) think it is. The business world saw this in the last 10 years, and started to send their Chairmen / CEOs / Mangers to 'leadership' courses. I wonder how many training captains out there today have been on anything more than a 1-day course...and now they are supposed to be training others.
Bellfest, you got me talking about a subject which I am serious about. If you accept that the paradigm shift I spoke of is happening, raising the barre or having higher time instructor pilots is a separate issue. I'm talking about Education in Avaition. It took me 4 years to cover an education degree. Most instructors get little more than a week or 2 week 'crash-course' in education. To me, that is where the main problem lies. The flight experience of the 'lower-time' instructors is enough to cover the course that they teach. What is lacking is their understanding of 'what makes a good teacher'. 10000 hours won't make a poor teacher good. The quality of education in aviation is generally terrible, from ab initio education all the way up the ladder to company line training pilots. What is needed is more focus on the educators. The standards must be more rigidly enforced and clearer understanding of what the ndustry standards aim to acheive (i.e basic training only) by hiring companies. This will in turn require the companies then to take on more responsibility in terms of specialist field training, through mentorship and probation programs.
As I said...the times, they are a-changing. Aviation is much more accessible now. Pilots today haven't got dads who flew in the great war and grandads who were barnstormers in the 30s. No longer can companies assume that their new hire has been in the hangar for years listening to the old bold pilots telling tales of yore. Companies (and some individuals) need to accept this change.
cl12pv2s
P.S Before anyone slams me, I'm not saying that all people without 'education degrees' are poor teachers. There is such a thing as a 'natural teacher'. Someone who is simply good at imparting knowledge to others with no education training.
Unfortunately about 50% of Joe Averages aren't natural teachers, and by nature of the industry's history, most pilots aren't eith
Last edited by cl12pv2s; 20th May 2006 at 18:20.
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Ok, first i have to say... i don't think that low time instructors are the way to bring the most possible quality into initial training!
Why? They can't really good prepare their customers to the many sh..t situations in helicopterflying because they are so green that the most can't imagine what could be possible in the rotary world...
They are really experienced with technical problems or emergencies
really experienced with bad weather , really experienced with the freight or the pax or the differencies between this both jobs they can very good teach the navigation in hostile areas or... or... or...
all they can do is give their best in their limited vision of the helicopter industry. And i accept it!!! They give their best!!!
How much the chiefs in the most lowtimer-instructor schools trust in their young collegues we can see that the most chiefs let them only give the basic parts and a position between a slave of the customer (and the company) and a hangar sweeper. Only small paid on hours base, no emergencies, no flights outside the company area, no important guys.
And really bad is, that this low timers prepare low timer PPL pilots to be solo in the world. PPL instruction in sunny Florida and i try the new license in Alaska...
They are cheap, they are hungry and they don't discuss with the boss about problems like maintenance or safety. That's the reason why we have so much low time instructors!
I'm ready... fire up!
Why? They can't really good prepare their customers to the many sh..t situations in helicopterflying because they are so green that the most can't imagine what could be possible in the rotary world...
They are really experienced with technical problems or emergencies
really experienced with bad weather , really experienced with the freight or the pax or the differencies between this both jobs they can very good teach the navigation in hostile areas or... or... or...all they can do is give their best in their limited vision of the helicopter industry. And i accept it!!! They give their best!!!
How much the chiefs in the most lowtimer-instructor schools trust in their young collegues we can see that the most chiefs let them only give the basic parts and a position between a slave of the customer (and the company) and a hangar sweeper. Only small paid on hours base, no emergencies, no flights outside the company area, no important guys.
And really bad is, that this low timers prepare low timer PPL pilots to be solo in the world. PPL instruction in sunny Florida and i try the new license in Alaska...
They are cheap, they are hungry and they don't discuss with the boss about problems like maintenance or safety. That's the reason why we have so much low time instructors!
I'm ready... fire up!
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I never thought this thread would go so long. There seem to be some pilots here that think instructors should have more experience before being allowed to take on students. To them I have to ask the obvious questions:
1. What SPECIFICALLY is not being done now by inexperienced instructors that would be done by instructors with more experience? (I'm not talking about experienced instructors passing along more wisdom, etc. because that sounds a lot like hangar talk to me.)
2. Or is the problem not the information that's being passed along, but instead the flying techniques that are being taught?
1. What SPECIFICALLY is not being done now by inexperienced instructors that would be done by instructors with more experience? (I'm not talking about experienced instructors passing along more wisdom, etc. because that sounds a lot like hangar talk to me.)
2. Or is the problem not the information that's being passed along, but instead the flying techniques that are being taught?
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I agree with Hillerbee 100 %.
Somebody needs to get of their high horses and take a sniff. The certificate is NOT a license to learn, but words of wisdom is to take calculated steps when being a newbie. The attitude of certain individuals screams of derogatory attitudes in this thread. Nobody is "born" to be a pilot, they are TAUGHT. And when they have received their license, it's the screening the future employers have to do of potential candidates to weed out the bad ones.
Attitudes are taught by example .....!!
Somebody needs to get of their high horses and take a sniff. The certificate is NOT a license to learn, but words of wisdom is to take calculated steps when being a newbie. The attitude of certain individuals screams of derogatory attitudes in this thread. Nobody is "born" to be a pilot, they are TAUGHT. And when they have received their license, it's the screening the future employers have to do of potential candidates to weed out the bad ones.
Attitudes are taught by example .....!!
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Ok Guys lets put it on the table.
If you had never flown before and had $70,000 of your own money how would you guys want to be trained in the ideal world.
There is alot of bitching going on about low time instructors and alot of the points i have read are valid.
The way i see things is:
These instructors are spending all day, everyday teaching and flying the fundamental maneuvers. They have more practice at emergency procedures than any high time pilot. How many full down autos have you done in the last week? All Lowtime instructors can do is teach the basics to a very high, consistant standard.
You only start really learning how to fly when you eventually get out into the real world and start flying in the real world situations with the high time pilots.
Instructors are good at what they do- Teaching the fundamentals.
High time pilots are good at what they do - Teaching you how to really fly.
You need a good solid foundation on which to build and if you have been flying those fundamentals day in day out for 1000 hours it surely must lead to a better pilot in the long run.
Yes, the ideal would be to have the high time guys as the instructors, but at the end of the day everyone has to start somewhere and every single one of you at one point in your life was a low time newbie.
The system works and with good training and then good experiance you can form into a great pilot.
Im training as a CFII right now. It is the only route i can go. You wouldnt believe how much i would love to fly with the high time guys but it just aint gonna happen until i make that 1000 hour milestone.
Fly within your competency, dont fly into stupid wx and situations and know the second you dont respect the machine it will bite you in the ass. This is all i can do until i get into the real world.
R22
If you had never flown before and had $70,000 of your own money how would you guys want to be trained in the ideal world.
There is alot of bitching going on about low time instructors and alot of the points i have read are valid.
The way i see things is:
These instructors are spending all day, everyday teaching and flying the fundamental maneuvers. They have more practice at emergency procedures than any high time pilot. How many full down autos have you done in the last week? All Lowtime instructors can do is teach the basics to a very high, consistant standard.
You only start really learning how to fly when you eventually get out into the real world and start flying in the real world situations with the high time pilots.
Instructors are good at what they do- Teaching the fundamentals.
High time pilots are good at what they do - Teaching you how to really fly.
You need a good solid foundation on which to build and if you have been flying those fundamentals day in day out for 1000 hours it surely must lead to a better pilot in the long run.
Yes, the ideal would be to have the high time guys as the instructors, but at the end of the day everyone has to start somewhere and every single one of you at one point in your life was a low time newbie.
The system works and with good training and then good experiance you can form into a great pilot.
Im training as a CFII right now. It is the only route i can go. You wouldnt believe how much i would love to fly with the high time guys but it just aint gonna happen until i make that 1000 hour milestone.
Fly within your competency, dont fly into stupid wx and situations and know the second you dont respect the machine it will bite you in the ass. This is all i can do until i get into the real world.
R22
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R22driver...agree with you on all accounts but one :
Using same airspace and/or a commercial machine, you're very much in the "real world". Don't think otherwise. It would be disrespectfull to you AND your future students.
Using same airspace and/or a commercial machine, you're very much in the "real world". Don't think otherwise. It would be disrespectfull to you AND your future students.
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R22Driver.
The issue of more experience in an instructor,can be on many occasions little more benefit than hangar talk. But it's invaluable, both before and after you have the license to learn..(sorry Mr Wellington, you're in a tiny minority)
The reason it's so valuable, is because it's indefinable...It's not now, and hasn't been for a long time, how to hit a hot LZ ...
But it's a moot point really, as experienced pilot instructors are the exception not the rule.
A seasoned pilot has often flown in many environments, and doesn't have to look in a book because its minus 20 out. or there's a sand/snowstorm coming. A seasoned person knows the difference in snow types, how to land in snow or sand, without having to seek opinions on a website or a book that won't be available when you really need it!
Knows what kind of weather causes the skids to freeze down in winter, and how to break it out if they forgot the very simple procedure to prevent it in the first place...Knows what parts really need defrosting on a machine left out overnight in an ice storm.
If you ever ferry a machine and get caught in an ice storm away from home base, good luck in getting it ready to fly the following morning, when you're all alone on a freezing apron Sunday morning at daylight, and the machines due on a contract 1000 miles away in 2 days.
Unless of course someone taught you what to do! In that case it's 20 mins and your getting toasty tootsies courtesy of bleed air...Unless your in a 109 ...right Gary....;-)
Knows how to revive a battery. knows how to do a drip test from the pilots point of view, before you ferry it back to base with a leak..Knows that the flight school told you you don't fly with a leak.
Well when you get that first turbine job after waiting a long time. The boss says, it'll be fine, just bring it on home. It'd be nice to know if he's a homicidal maniac, looking for the insurance payout. Or if it's a common problem with the component, and if it's a stabilized leak, that you're safe to fly it home with.
This comes from hands on time or canvassing advice from a trusted senior pilot who you respect..The problem is at the bottom end of the ladder, not many people have the teeshirts, so who do you ask?
I'm not trying to break anyone down, we all have to learn! But you will not learn much until your out there doing it for yourself in the commercial world...I just hope you have an annoying old graybeard around to help you out, the way we old guys did !
I'm in my 50's now, but still keep a couple of phone numbers in my wallet. These were my mentors at various stages in my helo life. And if I had a problem tomorrow, I wouldn't hesitate to call one of these really grizzled old farts for some advice...Have you got phone numbers you can reach for?
You might be flying from High Wycombe or Sheffield at the moment, and all this sounds ridiculous to you! But if you stay with helo's.
You're probably gonna find yourself in lots of weird places that you can't imagine right now!
In fact, as I write it reminds me of a simple example.
I was driving a 58T years ago, and couldn,t get it to start...Was in a remote location after delivering and and holding in place for assembly, a huge radio tower mast top piece...
I had a mechanic in the right seat getting some bootleg stick time on the ferry legs ...He couldn't figure it out either...It was in the early days of cell phones with the monster satchel deals we used to pack around..
Anyway..Called Ops and the boss said they'd send in a sparks chaser and some gear. But we'd have to spend the night in the machine, as it was coming dark and the parts would be flown to a local operator by FW and the guy and parts ferried to us in a 206 the following day...So I called an old friend who'd flown H34's in the early sixties...I explained the problem and he said " lift he right seat up and at the back is a tube looking deal with a fuse in it"..."It's the fuse that's blown"...
I said are you sure, and he said it's never happened to him personally, but an old 34 driver had told him about it years ago during training on type...This was in the 1950's, and he hadn't flown one since 1966..
Sure as ****, we pulled the seat up and wrapped in self amalgamating tape was an inline fuse, they'd wrapped it in black SA tape to protect it from moisture, which made it blend in with the black paint and crud mashed down behind the seat...
So we pulled one out of another non essential unit, and replaced the dud, flashed the old girl up..Called Ops and said cancel everything, we're on our way again...Saved the company a bunch of cash, scored a few brownie points for ourselves, and all thanks to an old goat with a good memory!
Ok, It's not a flying technique, or a safety of flight story. But with many small operators, your knowledge can make or break the operation, thereby keeping food on your table!
Lots of these places will give you a new perspective from the one you hold now. And this is the reason we have such a huge difference of opinion among the helo pilot ranks! Everybodies looking from a different hilltop at the same view.Just the scene looks different to all of us.
I've asked a lot of older friends why ,when the go into retirement, they don't think about instructing part time.
It'll keep you occupied, and maybe you can put some really good, hard earned knowledge back into the biz that's been your life...
I've got a bunch of various reasons given to me why not...But the bottom line is, very few of the guy's that should be teaching are...Pretty sad really, but that's life for you !
170
The issue of more experience in an instructor,can be on many occasions little more benefit than hangar talk. But it's invaluable, both before and after you have the license to learn..(sorry Mr Wellington, you're in a tiny minority)
The reason it's so valuable, is because it's indefinable...It's not now, and hasn't been for a long time, how to hit a hot LZ ...
But it's a moot point really, as experienced pilot instructors are the exception not the rule.
A seasoned pilot has often flown in many environments, and doesn't have to look in a book because its minus 20 out. or there's a sand/snowstorm coming. A seasoned person knows the difference in snow types, how to land in snow or sand, without having to seek opinions on a website or a book that won't be available when you really need it!
Knows what kind of weather causes the skids to freeze down in winter, and how to break it out if they forgot the very simple procedure to prevent it in the first place...Knows what parts really need defrosting on a machine left out overnight in an ice storm.
If you ever ferry a machine and get caught in an ice storm away from home base, good luck in getting it ready to fly the following morning, when you're all alone on a freezing apron Sunday morning at daylight, and the machines due on a contract 1000 miles away in 2 days.
Unless of course someone taught you what to do! In that case it's 20 mins and your getting toasty tootsies courtesy of bleed air...Unless your in a 109 ...right Gary....;-)
Knows how to revive a battery. knows how to do a drip test from the pilots point of view, before you ferry it back to base with a leak..Knows that the flight school told you you don't fly with a leak.
Well when you get that first turbine job after waiting a long time. The boss says, it'll be fine, just bring it on home. It'd be nice to know if he's a homicidal maniac, looking for the insurance payout. Or if it's a common problem with the component, and if it's a stabilized leak, that you're safe to fly it home with.
This comes from hands on time or canvassing advice from a trusted senior pilot who you respect..The problem is at the bottom end of the ladder, not many people have the teeshirts, so who do you ask?
I'm not trying to break anyone down, we all have to learn! But you will not learn much until your out there doing it for yourself in the commercial world...I just hope you have an annoying old graybeard around to help you out, the way we old guys did !
I'm in my 50's now, but still keep a couple of phone numbers in my wallet. These were my mentors at various stages in my helo life. And if I had a problem tomorrow, I wouldn't hesitate to call one of these really grizzled old farts for some advice...Have you got phone numbers you can reach for?
You might be flying from High Wycombe or Sheffield at the moment, and all this sounds ridiculous to you! But if you stay with helo's.
You're probably gonna find yourself in lots of weird places that you can't imagine right now!
In fact, as I write it reminds me of a simple example.
I was driving a 58T years ago, and couldn,t get it to start...Was in a remote location after delivering and and holding in place for assembly, a huge radio tower mast top piece...
I had a mechanic in the right seat getting some bootleg stick time on the ferry legs ...He couldn't figure it out either...It was in the early days of cell phones with the monster satchel deals we used to pack around..
Anyway..Called Ops and the boss said they'd send in a sparks chaser and some gear. But we'd have to spend the night in the machine, as it was coming dark and the parts would be flown to a local operator by FW and the guy and parts ferried to us in a 206 the following day...So I called an old friend who'd flown H34's in the early sixties...I explained the problem and he said " lift he right seat up and at the back is a tube looking deal with a fuse in it"..."It's the fuse that's blown"...
I said are you sure, and he said it's never happened to him personally, but an old 34 driver had told him about it years ago during training on type...This was in the 1950's, and he hadn't flown one since 1966..
Sure as ****, we pulled the seat up and wrapped in self amalgamating tape was an inline fuse, they'd wrapped it in black SA tape to protect it from moisture, which made it blend in with the black paint and crud mashed down behind the seat...
So we pulled one out of another non essential unit, and replaced the dud, flashed the old girl up..Called Ops and said cancel everything, we're on our way again...Saved the company a bunch of cash, scored a few brownie points for ourselves, and all thanks to an old goat with a good memory!
Ok, It's not a flying technique, or a safety of flight story. But with many small operators, your knowledge can make or break the operation, thereby keeping food on your table!
Lots of these places will give you a new perspective from the one you hold now. And this is the reason we have such a huge difference of opinion among the helo pilot ranks! Everybodies looking from a different hilltop at the same view.Just the scene looks different to all of us.
I've asked a lot of older friends why ,when the go into retirement, they don't think about instructing part time.
It'll keep you occupied, and maybe you can put some really good, hard earned knowledge back into the biz that's been your life...
I've got a bunch of various reasons given to me why not...But the bottom line is, very few of the guy's that should be teaching are...Pretty sad really, but that's life for you !
170
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90% of instructors only teach people to fly a small 2 seat helicopter near a airport in decent weather, to get their private licence. i think the pilots in australia have a distorted view of what pilots need to know, because they operate in remote areas.
Silly me for thinking that you were having a go at low-hour instructors. At least now we know where you stand. Let's try not to mix the two issues then.
Of all the pompous and patronising statements I have read, this has to be up there! Make a point please
My point is this. These guys come in to an industry that finds candidates of their experience and capability acceptable to instruct. This is very likely to give them a faulse sense of security about their ability, something that is of no benefit to them whatsoever when they enter the real world of aviation.
One day, maybe the aviation industry will realise that it doesn't really know sh1t about how to educate its pilots of tomorrow (as evidenced in half the posts in this thread).......
This has got to be one of the most inefficient 'learning' strategies I have ever come across!!! Learning by osmosis?! Come on...
To me, that is where the main problem lies. The flight experience of the 'lower-time' instructors is enough to cover the course that they teach. What is lacking is their understanding of 'what makes a good teacher'. 10000 hours won't make a poor teacher good
No longer can companies assume that their new hire has been in the hangar for years listening to the old bold pilots telling tales of yore
Last edited by bellfest; 21st May 2006 at 01:10.
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Bellfest,
It didn't take long for frustration to turn to personal digs, did it? BTW, you don't know sh1t about me. Be careful making assumptions on people. Not a good habit to start.
Well, I find we are at an impass, so to wrap things up...
I did notice in your first post that you mentioned 'the authority' being the problem. However, it still looks very much as if you are having a go at low time instructors...belittling their hard earned acheivements, and writing them out of the possiblity ever being able to be such a great pilot as yourself. Hell of an attitude that is for someone who is claiming that oldy-boldys should do all the instruction! I'd love to sit in on one of your debriefs!
Chairman of the Board (who has been noticably quiet) started this, in the first line of this thread, by saying, "I thought I better stir things up with some thoughts." 'Stir' things up...well he did that...but to what end? Of course he's going to get emotionally charged responses...many successful and unsuccesful pilots who opted for the 'instruction' route did that because it is now the only way to crack an industry which, although is more accessible is actually more competitive too. The committment and risk required to go this route is massive...maybe more than the military route or the 'father was a pilot too' route, that many of the 'grey-haired aces' of today took. To hear from 'self-acclaimed' masters that their efforts are worth nothing is pretty hard for them to swallow.
If you self-confessed gurus are going to convince me that you should be doing all the instruction then your attitudes to 'new pilots', and their knowledge progression are going to have to change. Remember, 'Respect' is one of the greatest facilitators to teaching and learning. However, respect is a two-way system.
What the aviation industry did in the past is not really relevant. How people got taught in the past (which did work) is not how pilot training will happen ever again. That's exactly why you think you are seeing lower quality pilots coming up through the system. Something has broken and needs fixing or replacing. Can't you see that?
Sorry. Still very patronising and pompous (see paragraph above) !...and I daresay you'd agree, not entirely true.
No, it depends on their ability to teach, their attitude and the level of learning of the student. For a student with less than 200 hrs, I don't think years of instructor experience is actually that great a benifit. (Ph.D example.)
Well I enjoyed our discussion....time will tell as to which way things go...if authorities do in fact decide to make flight training even more expensive by raising standards and requiring higher time instructors (who will demand more pay) or if the market decides and the industry has to adjust to the new way.
That's all from me.
cl12pv2s
It didn't take long for frustration to turn to personal digs, did it? BTW, you don't know sh1t about me. Be careful making assumptions on people. Not a good habit to start.
Well, I find we are at an impass, so to wrap things up...
I did notice in your first post that you mentioned 'the authority' being the problem. However, it still looks very much as if you are having a go at low time instructors...belittling their hard earned acheivements, and writing them out of the possiblity ever being able to be such a great pilot as yourself. Hell of an attitude that is for someone who is claiming that oldy-boldys should do all the instruction! I'd love to sit in on one of your debriefs!
Chairman of the Board (who has been noticably quiet) started this, in the first line of this thread, by saying, "I thought I better stir things up with some thoughts." 'Stir' things up...well he did that...but to what end? Of course he's going to get emotionally charged responses...many successful and unsuccesful pilots who opted for the 'instruction' route did that because it is now the only way to crack an industry which, although is more accessible is actually more competitive too. The committment and risk required to go this route is massive...maybe more than the military route or the 'father was a pilot too' route, that many of the 'grey-haired aces' of today took. To hear from 'self-acclaimed' masters that their efforts are worth nothing is pretty hard for them to swallow.
If you self-confessed gurus are going to convince me that you should be doing all the instruction then your attitudes to 'new pilots', and their knowledge progression are going to have to change. Remember, 'Respect' is one of the greatest facilitators to teaching and learning. However, respect is a two-way system.
The aviation industry has been doing just fine so far thanks very much. I meet fewer and fewer pilots of the quality of yesterday
...something that is of no benefit to them whatsoever when they enter the real world of aviation.
you would take the experienced bloke every time
Well I enjoyed our discussion....time will tell as to which way things go...if authorities do in fact decide to make flight training even more expensive by raising standards and requiring higher time instructors (who will demand more pay) or if the market decides and the industry has to adjust to the new way.
That's all from me.
cl12pv2s
Last edited by cl12pv2s; 21st May 2006 at 03:02.
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Gentlemen, Gentlemen, Gentlemen.
Re-aply handbag safety catches please.
If I may make so bold, and I am a very low hours vermin scum. But I would both like to agree and disagree with this post.
Firstly, there is good and bad in all.
Secondly, It doesn't matter to me if you have 10 trillion hours or 1 hour, it is your attitude that counts. If you are keen, you work hard, and you do your best then you are a good man In my books.
Thirdly (point a): I agree with what you are saying about people coming into this industry who do not give ****. They make me sick. but if you can inspire people and nurture them and genuinley care about their progress then you have more to offer than some jaded old fool who has seen it and done it and does'nt care.
Thirdly (point b): There are a lot of hour builders who have no experience of commercial ops and instruct, just to build hours. to them I say f~~~ ~ff. Why? because they dont give a f~~~.
You can learn more from someone who is inexperienced but keen, than you can ever learn from someone who is a Guru but who is tired and disinterested.
fourthly:
I cannot wait until I have my instructors ticket.
Why?
Because I hope to teach people to be good pilots.
How can I?
I can't!
But what I can do is teach them the right attitude. You are absolutely right about what you said in your post, but please dont forget that we all have to start somewhere. I did my time for my little country. No I wasnt a pilot because people like me couldn't become pilots because I didn't have A levels and a 3 year holiday (sorry, I meant degree). So I did my time in the Army and buit up to working with some of the best people in the world and now I am doing helicopters. I will never catch up with you and your experience, but I will always do my best, and just becuse you are a succesful helicopter pilot does not (in my books) mean that you should take it out on idiot newbies like me.
But I know what you mean!!
All the very best
trevors cat (who is sat by the fire in a basket going puuuuuuuuuuuurrrrrrrrrrrr, wheres my lager...........
Re-aply handbag safety catches please.
If I may make so bold, and I am a very low hours vermin scum. But I would both like to agree and disagree with this post.
Firstly, there is good and bad in all.
Secondly, It doesn't matter to me if you have 10 trillion hours or 1 hour, it is your attitude that counts. If you are keen, you work hard, and you do your best then you are a good man In my books.
Thirdly (point a): I agree with what you are saying about people coming into this industry who do not give ****. They make me sick. but if you can inspire people and nurture them and genuinley care about their progress then you have more to offer than some jaded old fool who has seen it and done it and does'nt care.
Thirdly (point b): There are a lot of hour builders who have no experience of commercial ops and instruct, just to build hours. to them I say f~~~ ~ff. Why? because they dont give a f~~~.
You can learn more from someone who is inexperienced but keen, than you can ever learn from someone who is a Guru but who is tired and disinterested.
fourthly:
I cannot wait until I have my instructors ticket.
Why?
Because I hope to teach people to be good pilots.
How can I?
I can't!
But what I can do is teach them the right attitude. You are absolutely right about what you said in your post, but please dont forget that we all have to start somewhere. I did my time for my little country. No I wasnt a pilot because people like me couldn't become pilots because I didn't have A levels and a 3 year holiday (sorry, I meant degree). So I did my time in the Army and buit up to working with some of the best people in the world and now I am doing helicopters. I will never catch up with you and your experience, but I will always do my best, and just becuse you are a succesful helicopter pilot does not (in my books) mean that you should take it out on idiot newbies like me.
But I know what you mean!!
All the very best
trevors cat (who is sat by the fire in a basket going puuuuuuuuuuuurrrrrrrrrrrr, wheres my lager...........
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I don't follow the argument that an instructor is either low hour and keen or high hour and jaded ????? I would think it is fairly obvious if you want to compare apples with apples if you have 2 instuctors with the same level of enthusiasm, intelligence and teaching ability but one has 200 hours industry experience and one has 5000 hours industry experience then the one that has 5000 would be my pick every time. Seems like common sense to me.
If a pilot has 200 or 400 or 1000 hours they are inexperienced. Thats fact. If a pilot has grey hair and 5000 hours they're bitter and jaded...That's an assumption..but not fact.
Judging by this thread it seems to me there are plenty of low hour instructors that would rather be doing something else as well and are only using it as a stepping stone, so before you part with your cash for one of those young keen instructors you may want to find out what his long term goals are.
I have had many occasions to be thankful that I trained under a couple of grey haired ass kickers. I still let them know from time to time and it still gives me a standard to aspire to. The knowledge they passed on to me was the knowledge of an instuctor as well as the knowledge of industry survivors. The whole package worked for me. That's all I know.
If a pilot has 200 or 400 or 1000 hours they are inexperienced. Thats fact. If a pilot has grey hair and 5000 hours they're bitter and jaded...That's an assumption..but not fact.
Judging by this thread it seems to me there are plenty of low hour instructors that would rather be doing something else as well and are only using it as a stepping stone, so before you part with your cash for one of those young keen instructors you may want to find out what his long term goals are.
I have had many occasions to be thankful that I trained under a couple of grey haired ass kickers. I still let them know from time to time and it still gives me a standard to aspire to. The knowledge they passed on to me was the knowledge of an instuctor as well as the knowledge of industry survivors. The whole package worked for me. That's all I know.
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This discussion has rambled on for 4 pages with clearly no general agreement. I wonder why?
There is a huge difference in PPL & CPL requirements in Oz, the UK & USA. In Oz there are not so many private helicopters as there appears to be in UK & USA, hence the need just for a PPL. In the UK ( I don't know much about the USA system) you need around 700-800 hours to qualify for a CPL but in the meantime a PPL instructor gets paid for instructing. Reading Pprune it looks as though the vast majority of these PPL instructors only do it to get the hours to qualify for a CPL.
In Oz, if you get your FW CPL first, about 100 hours I think, you then only need around 60 hours for a helicopter CPL. As I am semi retired these hourly figures could be wrong but not by that much. Would you consider a 60 hour pilot experienced enough to take an instructors course or go fly commercially? Therefore he has to have around 400 hours to do his instructors course. As most students here go for a CPL, do you think a 400 hour instructor has enough background experience to teach him all that a commercial pilot needs to know? Remember quite a few of the smaller companies have very little check & training systems in place, so the new pilot can be let loose almost immediately. However, often the insurance companies won't let you insure such a pilot, so it becomes the chicken & the egg problem.
As to the quality of instructors, it's obvious that they must be able to teach first & foremost. Having 1000s of hours is useless if you are a lousy teacher.
It appears that in the UK & USA, a lot of the new pilots only want a PPL & hope to pay the least amount possible to get it. As they don't expect to fly IFR, at night, in bad weather ( until the weather misbehaves suddenly). land on mountain tops or oil rigs, etc, etc, then perhaps they can learn just enough from your 200 hour instructor to survive while they gather more experience themselves. However if they hope to become a commercial pilot down the track, wouldn't they be better off with some more in depth instruction?
I base my thoughts, probably not too eloquently, on having a reasonable amount of allround experience. I had my first helicopter lesson 51 years ago & have been an instructor/check pilot on & off for the last 40 years during which time I have flown with numerous pilots, many nationalities & could always tell what sort of instruction the pilot had in the beginning. The one saving grace I have noticed is if a person had natural ability & common sense, asked questions & tried to learn more, then as long as he survived the first few years, all pilots ended up pretty good regardless of their start. Like car drivers, some are good quickly, others never are.
There is a huge difference in PPL & CPL requirements in Oz, the UK & USA. In Oz there are not so many private helicopters as there appears to be in UK & USA, hence the need just for a PPL. In the UK ( I don't know much about the USA system) you need around 700-800 hours to qualify for a CPL but in the meantime a PPL instructor gets paid for instructing. Reading Pprune it looks as though the vast majority of these PPL instructors only do it to get the hours to qualify for a CPL.
In Oz, if you get your FW CPL first, about 100 hours I think, you then only need around 60 hours for a helicopter CPL. As I am semi retired these hourly figures could be wrong but not by that much. Would you consider a 60 hour pilot experienced enough to take an instructors course or go fly commercially? Therefore he has to have around 400 hours to do his instructors course. As most students here go for a CPL, do you think a 400 hour instructor has enough background experience to teach him all that a commercial pilot needs to know? Remember quite a few of the smaller companies have very little check & training systems in place, so the new pilot can be let loose almost immediately. However, often the insurance companies won't let you insure such a pilot, so it becomes the chicken & the egg problem.
As to the quality of instructors, it's obvious that they must be able to teach first & foremost. Having 1000s of hours is useless if you are a lousy teacher.
It appears that in the UK & USA, a lot of the new pilots only want a PPL & hope to pay the least amount possible to get it. As they don't expect to fly IFR, at night, in bad weather ( until the weather misbehaves suddenly). land on mountain tops or oil rigs, etc, etc, then perhaps they can learn just enough from your 200 hour instructor to survive while they gather more experience themselves. However if they hope to become a commercial pilot down the track, wouldn't they be better off with some more in depth instruction?
I base my thoughts, probably not too eloquently, on having a reasonable amount of allround experience. I had my first helicopter lesson 51 years ago & have been an instructor/check pilot on & off for the last 40 years during which time I have flown with numerous pilots, many nationalities & could always tell what sort of instruction the pilot had in the beginning. The one saving grace I have noticed is if a person had natural ability & common sense, asked questions & tried to learn more, then as long as he survived the first few years, all pilots ended up pretty good regardless of their start. Like car drivers, some are good quickly, others never are.
you don't know sh1t about me. Be careful making assumptions on people. Not a good habit to start.
To hear from 'self-acclaimed' masters that their efforts are worth nothing is pretty hard for them to swallow.
I did notice in your first post that you mentioned 'the authority' being the problem. However, it still looks very much as if you are having a go at low time instructors...belittling their hard earned acheivements, and writing them out of the possiblity ever being able to be such a great pilot as yourself. Hell of an attitude that is for someone who is claiming that oldy-boldys should do all the instruction! I'd love to sit in on one of your debriefs!
Now I will tell you exactly what I think, as clear as I possibly can.
1)The requirements to obtain an instructors rating in my opinion is too low.
2)These requirements are set by the respective authorities so therefore it is they that are responsible.
3)If it is seen as acceptable by a fresh CPLH to gain hours by instructing with these minimal requirements then it is not his fault if he chooses to go down this path in an industry that is very hard to get a start in. It is the authorities fault for making him think it is acceptable. I have never directly insulted or belittled the low hour instructor.
4)I don't think that there is any room for mentoring in the first 1000 hours, in a flying school or in a commercial operation. As I have stated before, it is much more beneficial to assume you are behind the eight ball and not in front of it. Knighting a fresh pilot with the privelege to teach can place them in front of the eight ball. Having a pre conceived idea of ones ability is not that beneficial in this game.
5) To debate a topic like this we have to generalise. I don't know each low or high time instructor so you must understand that we are talking odds here.
You are quite correct to say that some individuals can have a better ability to teach than others. There is probably a percentage of good teachers and bad teachers, say 70/30. With a group of experienced instructors you will have 7/10 all round good instuctors and 3/10 not so good instructors with the added benefit of experience. Now tell me what you will get with the proportionate amount of low time instructors.
What the aviation industry did in the past is not really relevant. How people got taught in the past (which did work)
If you self-confessed gurus are going to convince me that you should be doing all the instruction then your attitudes to 'new pilots', and their knowledge progression are going to have to change. Remember, 'Respect' is one of the greatest facilitators to teaching and learning. However, respect is a two-way system.
Last edited by bellfest; 21st May 2006 at 12:23.
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Nigel, You may well need 7-800 hrs to get a job in the UK but you can get a shiny new CPL with a little under 200hrs. For an FI(H) its now 250hrs.
In the UK, the CAA lowered the limit from 300 to 250hrs not that long ago. What does that say about their attitude to this arguement? Answers on a postcard please....
P.S. Why is it on this forum people have to react to every bitchy comment, surely some of us can rise above it(Pun intended).
FP.
In the UK, the CAA lowered the limit from 300 to 250hrs not that long ago. What does that say about their attitude to this arguement? Answers on a postcard please....
P.S. Why is it on this forum people have to react to every bitchy comment, surely some of us can rise above it(Pun intended).
FP.