NSW EMS (NGO or Private operator)

[sagy34]

I understand that this is a rumor network, but a little bit of fact checking would be a fine thing

[sand blaster]

I am sorry for the miss information

When I explained that Careflight failed to provide services delivery, I was incorrect.

Yes Incorrect, I stated that Careflight failed to provide services for
· IFR capabilities
· winch capability
· Doctor
· crew due to duty hours or sickness

I am sorry for miss leading you. I used the word days and yes this is incorrect.
In-fact:

• No helicopter services at all over 4 years should have read

No helicopter Services for greater than 3600 hours

• No winch capabilities should have read

No winch capability for greater than 5700 hours

• No IFR Capabilities should have read

No IFR capabilities for greater than 8640 hours

• No Doctor

Who Knows? But, those international high paying jobs still get done. What about those NSW supporters who donate? (No doctor unless they are abroad and insured)

• No crew Due duty hours

No argument from me. Good policy I would say, unless funding is provided for such redundancies.

So Sea Breeze and Sagy34 this should answer you question. No wonder it is cheap to run such a add hock service. How long would you maintain your contract in free enterprise with this sort of service capability?

Just another trick thanks for your heart warming comments, however you need to review your comments Service delivery factor (value for money) Careflight seams to fail to provide the goods even with three helicopters. By the way the facts quoted only apply to the Sydney rescue machine as it would be to embarrassing to include the rest.

Next time you get ill, just make sure the professionals are around and not the NGO (bleed all dry). But get ill soon as the professionals won’t be around for long as the Politicians will soon step in and open the way for the NGO’s to continue their unchallenged lack of service delivery.

So lets all learn the NGO call to arms,

Politician, Politician, come all Politicians, join our boards, support our cause, come all politicians and protect our cause.

[spinwing]

Mmmmm .... Sand Blaster,

When I visited CareFlight (westmead) albeit quite some time ago they had a BH412 which along with the crew WAS IFR capable and was used that way when required.

They now have a BK117 which was obtained with some difficulty due to it also needed to be an SP IFR machine.

Perhaps as others have indicated ... you might need to check your facts!!!

[sand blaster]

Facts are correct


Mr Selfish, Careflight are contracted to provide 24/7 coverage so hours include this but I like the 14-year bit that makes it sound even worse. Just goes to show how much flying one could do, or in this case not be available to do.
Sagy34, 412 was also SP IFR it was sold because the chook raffles were not doing well.

[fatrat]

JAT, Hammer, the contract the present services have states that the aircraft be single pilot IFR. When CareFlight got rid of the 412, and picked up that rather disgusting excuse for a replacement, the auto pilot did not work. After it was evident that this would not be fixed quickly they were financially punished by health.

It is interesting to note that for several years the surfies operated their machine 2 pilot IFR, as it did not have an auto pilot. They quite often did not meet the requirement as they did not always have a co pilot.

At the end of the day it does not matter how much value the community get out of a machine that is IFR, it all boils down to the fact that the contract states that the aircraft will meet certain specs.

I have said this before, the problem that the NGO's have is that they think they run the show, and they treat the customer like they are morons! If they lose the contract it will be largly because of their appalling attitude and treatment of the customer.

They can then bleat to the media and try to do their normal spin doctoring in trying to do what they did 10 years ago and have the successfull tender winner kicked out.

Thank god the tender closes on WED 12 July, lets hope the Govt gets it right this time!!

fatty

[sea breeze]

Just another trick
Don’t forget, that the charity vacuum cleaner is spread over a very large distance and sucks many communities dry, these areas are well outside Sydney and require IFR capabilities to reach them on many more occasions than 15%,
What is Careflights area of operation?
what of the total lack of aircraft availability?
What is the night VFR hours verses IFR hours, for surf and careflight?


Who is the Customer?


Fatrat
What happened 10 years ago? seems that this could do with some expanding or was this just a comment in Jest?

[Neerg rN]

IFR

There's more and better reasons to go IFR than only when it's IMC!

[fatrat]

Seabreeze,
About 10 years ago when the contract was out for tender CHC or LLoyds at that time won the tender for the whole of NSW, the NGO's all got together as one(first time ever they all agreed on an issue) and fought the Govt's decision, with a very bitter anti Lloyd campain. Lloyds to their credit did not respond to any of the smear campain, and basicly stood back and allowed the NGO's to get the decision reversed. Lloyd were given the Canberra contract through South Care. The contract in NSW was a performance based contract, which the govt renewed on one or two occasions.

The reason it is actually being tendered again now may be an indication of how satisfied the Govt is with the present NGO services.

I guess that we will all find out in the near future if the Govt is serious about improving the services to NSW. Having just said that we must remember that NSW are due for elections early next year, and it would surprise no one if the decision was delayed until after the election, and leave the diry job of anouncing a re think to the incoming Govt!!!

If the NGO's get up they can expect to be treated more like a commercial entity, with the same restrictions for things like maintenance down time. At present they enjoy the 6 24 hour periods per month, (without providing backup)which can be pooled to allow them up to 18 days straight down time without penalty.

fatty

[sand blaster]

Are we being conditioned to think that NGO’s are cheap


What is the cost of the community helicopter model to the mum’s dads and the retired? What is the cost to local charities, Sea breeze asked? What downside is there to the health system?

Sea breeze uses the term CVC, this Charity Vacuum Cleaner regularly sweeps the countryside and urban areas, to feed its insatiable hunger for the charity dollar. These fundraisers use techniques that can often be intimidating because of the callers or doorknockers reluctance to take no for an answer.

So where does this money go:
· CEO $150,000.oo to $200,000.oo
· Chief pilot $150,000.00
· Crew Chief $90,000.oo
· Secretaries $50,000.oo by say x 2
· Fundraises full time $50,000.oo say x 4
· Vehicles by many??????
· Media spokesperson????
· Board members expenses
· Accountants????
· Legal team (A very large sum for some)
· Payroll team $60,000.oo

*Essential staff eg pilotis crew engineers are exempted from equation because all operators require these assets

My Point is a charity helicopter cost around $800,000.oo in wages before any of the essential staff or flying assets are factored into the equation. $800,000.oo is also a very conservative figure, as many of the staff numbers have not been truly represented, the true overall cost of each staff member has not been adjusted to calculate, insurance long service leave or superannuation, and other ongoing costs.

How many community helicopters are there in NSW.

• Sydney 2
• Newcastle 1
• Lismore 1

Wollongong has the Garth helicopter mob with no current aircraft, no current aircraft experience no current base, no current pilots, no current crew, no current engineers, but most likely will become successful in their tender bid. This is because they also sing the NGO song (politician) however they have a better weapon in their arsenal “the South Coast Labour Council.” (as seen on the SCLC website, http://www.sclc.com.au/content/campaigns.php )

There will be Five Community Helicopter Operators with the above costs plus their regional satellite bases which incur additional costs in fund raisers managers etc.

NSW Mums, Dads and the Elderly must DONATE just under Five million dollars just to feed the CHARITY machine without buying one drop of fuel or aviation asset or essential staff payment.

5 million Dollars WHAT a rip off, but its a cheap service. “To Who”

What of other local charities, they beg for crumbs, whilst many local causes suffer greatly because of this highly structured and relentless feeding upon the community’s good will and charity dollar.
On one of the NGO’s Annual reports for 2005 it states that cost for fund raising was $4,546,000.oo, whilst total funds raised were $8,424,000.oo

This equates to 50 cents in the dollar raised goes to obtain the funds.

Do those donating realise this?


Shame NSW Government stop hood winking the public, make this a fair and transparent tender.

Why doesn’t NSW have a government funded and run EMS system like Queensland, don’t NSW taxpayers deserve the best the government can provide. Let charities be for non-essential services and let the charity dollar stay within their communities where it is needed.

Tenders are closed and the NGO’s will now commence their networking of influence how much money will be spent on wining and dinning and lobbying for support .

Fatrat (interesting info, and very much on the mark)
If the professionals get the nod this time will they sit back and allow the vacuum cleaners to maintain their EMS strangle hold on the industry or will they fight back.

I have a question to all

Why do the charity helicopter group have the advantage of charity protection? whilst it could be argued that they are running a commercial business under the disguise of a charity. Are the overseas transport jobs performed at cost, or are they in direct competition with non-charity international transport businesses. Why has the media never reported on the way these charities do business? What is the role of a charity in the Australian EMS industry.
Answer
They are the true UNTOUCHABLES

[PPRuNeUser0212]

Lucky you live in WA SB, you won't have to pay the extra rip off taxes of the NSW gov to pay for the fully funded private operator providing the Sydney/Orange helicopter service, then later the Newcastle, Tamworth, Lismore and Canberra contracts. Where else will the pollies/public servants get the money for it. They can't sell the Snowy now and they have to have their pay rise too. You got it right Fatrat, nothing will happen until after an election. If the NGO's get the contract, the NSW Ambulance Service will pull the reins in and make sure they have 24 hour coverage.
I'm sure the folk way out west will be happy paying for the Sydney machines and only ever see them on the news.
At least the charity dollars are from people in the areas, whether it's Lismore, Newcastle, Tamworth, Orange, The Gong or Sydney and the dollars stay locally not going O/S. They are not forced to donate and if the organisation is above board there will be an annual report go out to all the regular donors, so yes they know where their money goes. Yes there is a lot of fat in some charity organisations but that seems to be the nature of the beast these days and me thinks $50K for a secretary may be a little on the hight side.
Lets see waht happens in September.
And does it matter, whoever gets it, will need crews, just have to make sure CV is up to date.

[Oogle]

Sandblaster

For someone who lives in Perth (west coast of Aus), you are getting pretty hot under the collar on this one.

I disagree that a fully Govt. funded service would be cheaper. You obviously are not aware of the cost of QLD Rescue or VicPol.

PS: I believe that the Chief Pilot is an essential part of the operation (even though you may not think that in your little equation)

[sea breeze]

Sand Blaster
You some up the NGO helicopter industry so well.
"Ouch"

[catseye]

cost base for ems

Oogle,

Sand blaster raises an interesting point in terms of system cost and who actually pays. Unfortunately his cost model is a bit out but the basic components are there vis the cost of providing the service. Base costs are the same for the any helo operator vis crew, cost of capital, cost of insurance, facilities maintenance and fuel. Take any of those out and neither operator is going flying for long.

If you take a philosophical view and work on the cost to society there is not much difference between the NGO and fully funded. NGO still needs to suck the money in and their cost of doing that ( aka fundraising ) balances against the cost involved in contracting a commercial operator and spreading the cost through taxes. Not much different cost to society really and I suspect the NGO model may be more expensive due to economy of scale.

Any new contract hopefully will put the emphasis on where it should be.Service delivery to the patient.

A cost model point for consideration:

What's the cost comparison between 25 hospitals in kickatinalong requiring a fully staffed emergency department at 1.5-2 million per year if you can get the staff, versus an adequately resourced quick reaction helicopter capability delivering within the " golden hour "

I suspect the helo model wins hands down.


Then there's the politics and dogma .........

The Eye.

[sand blaster]

Oogle
Thanks for the reply, yes I am a born and bred blues supporter. I have many links to NSW and a network of contacts there. As you gather I have questioned the NGO model for a very long time. You are correct in regards to the chief pilot position, he’s role within the organisation is crucial in providing discipline and the nucleus for the safety culture within the said organisation, but does NSW need 5 of them. And yes a secretary is in reality priced between $30000.oo -$50000.oo

Catseye has understood the whole point of my last post. Why does NSW need to spend 5 million dollars each year needlessly in excess staff, whilst not increasing its operational helicopter capabilities?

LHS
You have raised the question in regards to helicopter areas of operations. You implied people out west would not be happy in paying for the Sydney machines when the only time they would see them is on the evening news.
“Surprise” after performing a simple search on the internet all NGO helicopter rescue websites in NSW proudly display and quote the long distances they cover. Some even display maps that cover most of the state. The LifeSaver helicopter of the Southern Region boast the following: Our flight path takes us north to Toukley. North West to Dubbo, tracking south to Wagga Wagga and on to the Victorian Boarder. http://www.lifesaver.org.au/our_role.htm “Yes they are based in Sydney”

So what is a local area in regards to operational helicopter coverage and what is the financial area for fund raising. (You can’t have your cake and eat it as well).

This continued call for aircraft to remain in the local area is naive. It is generally raised when NGO’s and there supporters have their backs against the wall. This tactic can be seen periodically in local newspapers in different regions during difficult times. It represents the NGO’s call to arms, it is a war cry designed to rally their troops, who have been conditioned to believe that the helicopter should not proceed beyond an invisible line in the sky. No wonder the health authorities have had a gut full of these manipulating organisations that continually fail to provide the services that they so much promised to provide.

As many have stated before, it is time for a State funded and State controlled medical helicopter network that is not hampered with the in fighting and the media manipulation that is created by the NGO model.

Does anyone know what is in the new tender bid in regards to aircraft or other requirements? People in the know seem to be very tight lipped in regards to this.

[sea breeze]

Did anyone read the artical in the Sydney Morning Herald on Saturday in regards contracts?

[helopat]

No, but I'd like to...any chance of digging that up for us Seabreeze?

[fatrat]

It surprises me that it has taken 2 months for the incumbents to leak their propoganda to the press, blind freddie can see that this is the same tact they took some 8 or so years ago, when that Canadian company won the contract for NSW. A very nice we can't comment was added so that Health can't have a peice of them though.

I guess they must be getting worried, otherwise this article would not have been in the paper.

I still have my doubts as to whether this will be announced before the elections, guess we may know in a few weeks time, eh!

Fatty

[Driptray]

Here you go

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/...827162181.html

[topendtorque]

I wonder if this means that we will be hearing again from that veritable ****** - Vice-like.

I heard the other day how Steve Irwin had died doing what he loved doing , and Peter Brock had died doing what he loved doing, and I thought, well, i wonder how our old mate vicelike is going? him being such a ****** an all.

Uh-Oh at least the spam machine is working well, vicelike nearly got away with having a flogging good time!!

[topendtorque]

HH
sounds like 'someone' or "some uninteresed party????" showed honorable minister a xmas catalogue of all the toys that he doesn't have.

what an ego trip for him to buy a whole pack of new helicopters and show up the whole defence procurement department as second grade hams.

For sure come Dec 31 when the current contract is due to expire you will look forward to;
1) snow job,
2)hearing from spin doctors and
3) an extension until after the election, end of story!

heralding a user pays system