ATPL(H) or CPL(H)?
Hovering AND talking
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There was something about this on Rotorheads recently - that CPL/IR can be considered as ATPL or will be or it's a CAA loophole 
.
I'll try and hunt it out but can't guarantee it as sunshine and Chardonnay have the better of me at the moment!
Here_it_is! - not as pished as I think I am
Cheers
Whirls
. I'll try and hunt it out but can't guarantee it as sunshine and Chardonnay have the better of me at the moment!
Here_it_is! - not as pished as I think I am
Cheers
Whirls
JAR-FCL 2.285
I have many friends who have never been through the ATPL theory course and fly now S-61 & Super Puma´s. They did their CPL theory and later IR theory (pre-JAA) and then later converted to JAA certificate and therefore have the right to be issued ATPL certificate when they have the hour requirements and other knowledge requirements fullfilled (MCC course).
Problem is there are not that many IR theory courses available, if any? anyone??
If straight IR theory courses are offered now then I would choose to only do the CPL theory and then do the IR theory and single engine IR when funds permit!
The holder of a CPL(H) and IR(H)
satisfies the knowledge requirements for the
issue of an ATPL(H).
satisfies the knowledge requirements for the
issue of an ATPL(H).
Problem is there are not that many IR theory courses available, if any? anyone??
If straight IR theory courses are offered now then I would choose to only do the CPL theory and then do the IR theory and single engine IR when funds permit!
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Whirls
Aesir pointed out maybe one of the best articles found in the JAR bucket of bull.... the good JAR-FCL 2.285.
AA, you should think about it before commencing your training. However I think it is one of the windows into the ATPL theory crediting left for us who got the ticket pre-JAR.
I agree with 34, you should worry less and enjoy your training more.
34 My condolences.
Aesir pointed out maybe one of the best articles found in the JAR bucket of bull.... the good JAR-FCL 2.285.
AA, you should think about it before commencing your training. However I think it is one of the windows into the ATPL theory crediting left for us who got the ticket pre-JAR.
I agree with 34, you should worry less and enjoy your training more.
34 My condolences.
I recently received a quote from Eurocopter for an initial JAA-IR(H).
They don´t do single engine unfortunately.
Ground school and 55 hours on BO105 is 76000 Euros, which translates into USD 95000 or pounds 52000.
No, thankx.
They don´t do single engine unfortunately.
Ground school and 55 hours on BO105 is 76000 Euros, which translates into USD 95000 or pounds 52000.
No, thankx.
Originally Posted by GoodGrief
55 hours on BO105 is pounds 52000.
That actually sounds like quite a good rate for 55hours in a Twin.
Of course though, only a fool (and a rich fool at that) would do the whole course in a Twin. According to LASORS, only 10hrs has to be done in the Twin itself. The rest can be done in a Sim or a fixed-wing(!). (Full answers can be found in LASORS, Section E2).
B73
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I'm glad to hear that the UK CAA accept CPL(H) + IR(H) in lieu of ATPL(H) theory. However, it is not summarised in LASORS as Mr White says but it definately is in JAR-FCL.
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 08:47:08 +0100
Subject: ATPL(H) theory
"It is a requirement to hold valid JAR ATPL(H) theory credit to qualify for
the grant of a JAR ATPL(H). This can be achieved by passing the JAR ATPL(H)
examinations or by holding a JAR CPL(H)/IR (having passed the JAR CPL(H) and
IR exams). This latter option is summarised under "credits" of the LASORS
section quoted in your original e-mail.
Regards
Simon White
Policy Section
PLD "
"To: <[email protected]>
CC:
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 13:29:26 +0100
Subject: Att: Policy
In accordance with JAR-FCL 2.285;
(...)"The holder of a CPL(H) and IR(H) satisfies the knowledge requirements
for the issue of an ATPL(H)"
However, in Lasors 2006 (page 291 in the PDF file) it says that ATPL(H)
theory credit is among other requirements necessary for the issue of an
ATPL(H), contrary to JAR-FCL.
Is this an error in Lasors? "
Subject: ATPL(H) theory
"It is a requirement to hold valid JAR ATPL(H) theory credit to qualify for
the grant of a JAR ATPL(H). This can be achieved by passing the JAR ATPL(H)
examinations or by holding a JAR CPL(H)/IR (having passed the JAR CPL(H) and
IR exams). This latter option is summarised under "credits" of the LASORS
section quoted in your original e-mail.
Regards
Simon White
Policy Section
PLD "
"To: <[email protected]>
CC:
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 13:29:26 +0100
Subject: Att: Policy
In accordance with JAR-FCL 2.285;
(...)"The holder of a CPL(H) and IR(H) satisfies the knowledge requirements
for the issue of an ATPL(H)"
However, in Lasors 2006 (page 291 in the PDF file) it says that ATPL(H)
theory credit is among other requirements necessary for the issue of an
ATPL(H), contrary to JAR-FCL.
Is this an error in Lasors? "
I do not see it as an error.
An CPL & IR is an ATPL theory credit and therefore required for the issue of an ATPL licence!
The Lasors say that ATPL theory credit is required for issue of ATPL licence. We´ll how do you get ATPL theory credit? There are two way´s, either go take the ATPL ground school & exams or provide a CPL with IR! (Single engine IR is sufficient).
However the actual ATPL checkride has to be done in an IFR certified helicopter (or sim) which is usually a twin provided by your employer.
*CORRECTION!! I am in error to say that single engine IR is sufficient for ATPL applicant! What I was thinking about was that an applicant for a multi crew aircraft type rating can do that with single engine IR. I.e. Super Puma co-pilot can naturally do his co-pilot type rating if he has IR single or multi does not matter.
JAR-FCL 2.290 says.
An applicant for an ATPL(H) shall be the
holder of a CPL(H) [ ], a multi-engine instrument
rating (H)
An CPL & IR is an ATPL theory credit and therefore required for the issue of an ATPL licence!
The Lasors say that ATPL theory credit is required for issue of ATPL licence. We´ll how do you get ATPL theory credit? There are two way´s, either go take the ATPL ground school & exams or provide a CPL with IR! (Single engine IR is sufficient).
However the actual ATPL checkride has to be done in an IFR certified helicopter (or sim) which is usually a twin provided by your employer.
*CORRECTION!! I am in error to say that single engine IR is sufficient for ATPL applicant! What I was thinking about was that an applicant for a multi crew aircraft type rating can do that with single engine IR. I.e. Super Puma co-pilot can naturally do his co-pilot type rating if he has IR single or multi does not matter.
JAR-FCL 2.290 says.
An applicant for an ATPL(H) shall be the
holder of a CPL(H) [ ], a multi-engine instrument
rating (H)
Last edited by Aesir; 20th May 2006 at 09:53.
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Aesir, you are correct apart from that this is not what Lasors states.
Lasors states;
"The holder of a valid JAR-FCL CPL(H)/IR with JAR-FCL ATPL Theory credit will be credited the JAR-FCL ATPL (H) Theoretical knowledge examination for a period of 7 years from the last validity date of the IR (H) entered in the CPL (H)."
It should state;
"The holder of a valid JAR-FCL CPL(H)/IR will be credited the JAR-FCL ATPL (H) Theoretical knowledge examination."
As of today Lasors never state that CPL(H) + IR(H) will give you ATPL theory credit. For example, why mention the 7 year rule if they want you to have a valid CPL(H)/IR(H)? If your IR is valid, it must have been renewed within 7 years (but the ATPL theory exams lapse (which you don't need anyway) if your IR isn't renewed within 7 years).
Note that the exact same wording can be found in Lasors under the fixed-wing requirements. In the fixed-wing world, you do need ATPL theory, contrary to the helicopter world. Since the requirements between fixed-wing and rotary are not the same, the wording in Lasors must be different which it isn't.
Lasors states;
"The holder of a valid JAR-FCL CPL(H)/IR with JAR-FCL ATPL Theory credit will be credited the JAR-FCL ATPL (H) Theoretical knowledge examination for a period of 7 years from the last validity date of the IR (H) entered in the CPL (H)."
It should state;
"The holder of a valid JAR-FCL CPL(H)/IR will be credited the JAR-FCL ATPL (H) Theoretical knowledge examination."
As of today Lasors never state that CPL(H) + IR(H) will give you ATPL theory credit. For example, why mention the 7 year rule if they want you to have a valid CPL(H)/IR(H)? If your IR is valid, it must have been renewed within 7 years (but the ATPL theory exams lapse (which you don't need anyway) if your IR isn't renewed within 7 years).
Note that the exact same wording can be found in Lasors under the fixed-wing requirements. In the fixed-wing world, you do need ATPL theory, contrary to the helicopter world. Since the requirements between fixed-wing and rotary are not the same, the wording in Lasors must be different which it isn't.
Hovering AND talking
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I was always led to believe that LASORS was not infallible but that JAR-FCL was!
Cheers
Whirls
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Whirls
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So bear with me, if I have a cpl-h and a ir-h and I guess a proper number of hours (pic, ir, night, cross-country, etc) I can automatically upgrade to an atpl-h without further exams? Is that so?
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So bear with me, if I have a cpl-h and a ir-h and I guess a proper number of hours (pic, ir, night, cross-country, etc) I can automatically upgrade to an atpl-h without further exams? Is that so?
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I have recently had some communication with the CAA on CPL/IR, and the information sent to me by email confirms that the various previous posts are correct i.e. if you have a CPL and do the IR exams, then you are considered to be at ATPL theory level by the CAA.
This was explained to me on the basis that the IR exams only cover those parts of ATPL theory that are not already covered at CPL level, and thus by combining CPL exams with the cut down IR exams, ATPL theory is achieved.
Martin 1234, there is no ATPL check ride to take, if you have a CPL you have already passed it. What is different is the requirements for issue of the ATPL. It can only be issued after you have accumulated ( I think) 500 hours as P2 on a multi-pilot heli, which you can obtain with a CPL/IR, the key point being that you cannot act as P1 until you have met all requirements and been issued with an ATPL.
Basically JAR licenses have become task oriented - if you do not intend flying as P1 in multi-pilot helicopters, which is either North Sea or SAR, then you do not need an ATPL. A CPL/IR will allow you to do everything else, including P2 in such helis.
Ground Training Services at Bournemouth & Atlantic Flight Training do the IR exams
This was explained to me on the basis that the IR exams only cover those parts of ATPL theory that are not already covered at CPL level, and thus by combining CPL exams with the cut down IR exams, ATPL theory is achieved.
Martin 1234, there is no ATPL check ride to take, if you have a CPL you have already passed it. What is different is the requirements for issue of the ATPL. It can only be issued after you have accumulated ( I think) 500 hours as P2 on a multi-pilot heli, which you can obtain with a CPL/IR, the key point being that you cannot act as P1 until you have met all requirements and been issued with an ATPL.
Basically JAR licenses have become task oriented - if you do not intend flying as P1 in multi-pilot helicopters, which is either North Sea or SAR, then you do not need an ATPL. A CPL/IR will allow you to do everything else, including P2 in such helis.
Ground Training Services at Bournemouth & Atlantic Flight Training do the IR exams
Head Bolt. Thanks for the clarification, this has been my understanding and also how it has been explained to me.
In JAR-FCL 2 the multi crew time requirement for issue of ATPL is 350 hrs. I believe its in JAR FCL 2.280 if memory serves. The fixed wing guy's need 500 hrs.
Regarding ATPL checkrides, funnily enough not all authorities are in sync there! The Scandinavian aviation authorities will require ATPL practical checkride where the UK CAA will not. Therefore for example the Danish SLV have issued an information circular that UK CAA ATPL certificates are not approved in Denmark until the license holder has passed an ATPL practical checkride with JAA examiner.
In JAR-FCL 2 the multi crew time requirement for issue of ATPL is 350 hrs. I believe its in JAR FCL 2.280 if memory serves. The fixed wing guy's need 500 hrs.
Regarding ATPL checkrides, funnily enough not all authorities are in sync there! The Scandinavian aviation authorities will require ATPL practical checkride where the UK CAA will not. Therefore for example the Danish SLV have issued an information circular that UK CAA ATPL certificates are not approved in Denmark until the license holder has passed an ATPL practical checkride with JAA examiner.
I would like to add that FCL 2.295 states that an checkride in a multicrew aircraft is required for issue of an ATPL licence and the test standards are different for CPL or ATPL appendix 2 for 2.240/2.295.
I was wondering at first if the UK CAA simply required CPL applicants to complete their checkrides as per ATPL standards and therefore would not require a second checkride when the CPL holder applies for ATPL license. But that cannot be as the standards are so different as well as requiring the checkride to be done in multi pilot IFR aircraft.
This puzzles me as I am an FE myself and I don´t see where the UK aviation authorities can allow themselves to require less standards than the JAR´s require!?
The UK has signed mutual recognition of JAR-FCL 2 amendment 3. I´m sure there is a good explanation somewhere, but where!
Here is the SLV AIC.
I was wondering at first if the UK CAA simply required CPL applicants to complete their checkrides as per ATPL standards and therefore would not require a second checkride when the CPL holder applies for ATPL license. But that cannot be as the standards are so different as well as requiring the checkride to be done in multi pilot IFR aircraft.
This puzzles me as I am an FE myself and I don´t see where the UK aviation authorities can allow themselves to require less standards than the JAR´s require!?
The UK has signed mutual recognition of JAR-FCL 2 amendment 3. I´m sure there is a good explanation somewhere, but where!
Here is the SLV AIC.
AIC B-57/05. ATPL certifikater udstedt af CAA UK.
Statens Luftfartsvæsen har erfaret, at JAR-FCL ATPL certifikater bliver udstedt af Civil Aviation Authority – UK selvom de krævede
praktiske prøver (Skill Tests) ikke er gennemgået af certifikatindehaveren.
Disse certifikater opfylder derfor ikke kravene i JAR-FCL 1.295 og ICAO Annex 1, Disse krav anfører, at ATPL først må udstedes, når
ansøgeren har bestået ATPL Skill Test.
På denne baggrund må indehavere af ATPL udstedt af CAA UK først udøve certifikatets rettigheder på dansk registrerede luftfartøjer,
når de har dokumenteret, at de har bestået ATPL Skill Test.
Såfremt en sådan dokumentation ikke kan fremvises, skal certifikatindéhaveren bestå en ATPL Skill Test før den pågældende må udøve
rettighederne af sit UK ATPL på dansk registrerede luftfartøjer.
(TC)
Statens Luftfartsvæsen har erfaret, at JAR-FCL ATPL certifikater bliver udstedt af Civil Aviation Authority – UK selvom de krævede
praktiske prøver (Skill Tests) ikke er gennemgået af certifikatindehaveren.
Disse certifikater opfylder derfor ikke kravene i JAR-FCL 1.295 og ICAO Annex 1, Disse krav anfører, at ATPL først må udstedes, når
ansøgeren har bestået ATPL Skill Test.
På denne baggrund må indehavere af ATPL udstedt af CAA UK først udøve certifikatets rettigheder på dansk registrerede luftfartøjer,
når de har dokumenteret, at de har bestået ATPL Skill Test.
Såfremt en sådan dokumentation ikke kan fremvises, skal certifikatindéhaveren bestå en ATPL Skill Test før den pågældende må udøve
rettighederne af sit UK ATPL på dansk registrerede luftfartøjer.
(TC)
Last edited by Aesir; 3rd Jun 2006 at 22:07.
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ATPL(H) or CPL(H) Exams - Help
Dear all, I would be most appreciative of some help. I have a couple of hundred hours flying helicopters, and am taking the plunge to make this my career. - The bit that is scaring me most are the written examinations! - these will have to be studied via distance learning as I can not afford
to give up my day job! - I seem to have found 2 viable options 1 ATPL exams via Bristol Ground School - or more simply the CPL exams via Dragon helicopters - I am trying to fathom out the pro's and con's of both and would be very appreciative of any advice - especially of any longer term implications of making the wrong choice! many thanks
to give up my day job! - I seem to have found 2 viable options 1 ATPL exams via Bristol Ground School - or more simply the CPL exams via Dragon helicopters - I am trying to fathom out the pro's and con's of both and would be very appreciative of any advice - especially of any longer term implications of making the wrong choice! many thanks