ATPL(H) or CPL(H)?
Guest
Posts: n/a
Topendtorque - with responses like that, who do you think the tosser is? A completely unnecessary reply to a valid discussion. If you have anything useful to contribute, please do so. If not take your insecurities somewhere else.
Lynx247 - I have known a few people who have done their IR through CHC. Not sure on the price, but I dont suppose it will be cheap.
Lynx247 - I have known a few people who have done their IR through CHC. Not sure on the price, but I dont suppose it will be cheap.
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,957
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IR Rating
no worries line book, if you guys have worked out what an ATPL will allow you to do which as stringfellow hinted at y'all sounded a bit confused about, then i'd recommend you check the following
http://www.rotorlift.com.au/
Then B4U say, too far, etc check out the OZ currency here
http://www.xe.com/ucc/
dollar pundits are predicting $AU to go further down from the current US$0.73 quite aways.
The whisper is that they are also doing some NVG stuff, but you can find out for yourself.
have a nice day now.
http://www.rotorlift.com.au/
Then B4U say, too far, etc check out the OZ currency here
http://www.xe.com/ucc/
dollar pundits are predicting $AU to go further down from the current US$0.73 quite aways.
The whisper is that they are also doing some NVG stuff, but you can find out for yourself.
have a nice day now.
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: England
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Line_book - I'm currently trying to find out how much Bond charge for their IR(H) on the EC135 - you have to take the type rating first though. Even so, I think it will be very very expensive... I will let you know when I receive a reply from them, although I'm not exactly looking forward to reading it!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Topendtorque - ok, sorry for the last reply!
Thanks for your post, it is an interesting website, and looks like a good school. I have spent some time in Oz, flying, and was quite impressed with things. I am based in europe at the moment, so I think JAA is the way ahead for me. I dont need to do any hours building prior to CPL, the CAA will issue it to me on my current type. I am interested in maybe going back to Oz at some time int the future though for shortish periods of time. Do you know how to the CASA view JAA licenses? Also in follow up to Lynx247's last post, do you know if there is any value in doing an IR or any other rating for that matter, in Oz, then going back to the UK to convert it to JAA?
Thanks for your post, it is an interesting website, and looks like a good school. I have spent some time in Oz, flying, and was quite impressed with things. I am based in europe at the moment, so I think JAA is the way ahead for me. I dont need to do any hours building prior to CPL, the CAA will issue it to me on my current type. I am interested in maybe going back to Oz at some time int the future though for shortish periods of time. Do you know how to the CASA view JAA licenses? Also in follow up to Lynx247's last post, do you know if there is any value in doing an IR or any other rating for that matter, in Oz, then going back to the UK to convert it to JAA?
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Europe
Posts: 406
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One of the requirements in JAR-FCL 1 (fixed-wing) for the issue of an ATPL certificate is valid CPL + IR certificates + valid ATPL theory.
One of the requirements in JAR-FCL 2 (helicopter) for the issue of an ATPL certificate is valid CPL(H) + IR(H) certificates. There is absolutely no requirement in JAR-FCL 2 that you need ATPL theory in any situation. ATPL (H) theory is still just a way of doing CPL + IR theory "at the same time".
I believe, which someone at the UK CAA confirmed, that they just copied the fixed-wing requirements in lasors and put it under the helicopter section as well. I few months ago I e-mailed the CAA about this but still no reply.
They might, however, change the theory requirements in the future but it is likely that "old" CPL + IR theory will still be valid for ATPL certificate issue.
One of the requirements in JAR-FCL 2 (helicopter) for the issue of an ATPL certificate is valid CPL(H) + IR(H) certificates. There is absolutely no requirement in JAR-FCL 2 that you need ATPL theory in any situation. ATPL (H) theory is still just a way of doing CPL + IR theory "at the same time".
I believe, which someone at the UK CAA confirmed, that they just copied the fixed-wing requirements in lasors and put it under the helicopter section as well. I few months ago I e-mailed the CAA about this but still no reply.
They might, however, change the theory requirements in the future but it is likely that "old" CPL + IR theory will still be valid for ATPL certificate issue.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Thanks Martin. I think you are highlighting the some of the current confusion arising under the JAA rules and regs. Each time I look at the LASORS, I think I can interpret something in a different way to the last time! However, that is what we have to work with. As I see it now, there are not that many places offereing purely a CPL(H) GS (ATPL less IR - please correct me if I am wrong), so it often seems like the logical course of action to do the full ATPL package. What I find a bit hard to grasp is that there appears to be a penalty if you cannot complete the IRE within the time (3yrs). I can understand that there is obvious skills fade, so perhaps that is why you need to retake the exams.
I am leaning toward the view that it is best to do all the exams initially, to give myself 3 yrs to gain the IR, if that does not happen, then retake the exams as and when I need them. If I do not need them, then I will endeavour to continue to operate with just a CPL(H).
I do think this will be situation and circumstance based for each individual. I you are on 250 hrs, probably no point as it might be difficult to get another 1250 hrs and IR in 3 yrs (maybe not).
Thoughts?
I am leaning toward the view that it is best to do all the exams initially, to give myself 3 yrs to gain the IR, if that does not happen, then retake the exams as and when I need them. If I do not need them, then I will endeavour to continue to operate with just a CPL(H).
I do think this will be situation and circumstance based for each individual. I you are on 250 hrs, probably no point as it might be difficult to get another 1250 hrs and IR in 3 yrs (maybe not).
Thoughts?
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: England
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I share exactly the same view as you Line_book. I've thought a lot about this too, and I think getting all the theory out of the way, and quickly, has to be the way to go. If the big companies are suddenly short of pilots, luck may prevail in our favour. If not, I might possibly just about find a way to raise that sort of cash over 3 years, and then take the IR(H) just before my exam credits timeout. At least that's what I'm thinking!
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Europe
Posts: 406
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lynx247, I do have the same plan as you with the exception that if I don't find a sponsor, I will probably get my PPL(A) + IR(A) instead. It is much cheaper, it will "save" the IR theory and the IR(A) gives credit towards the IR(H). It will also give me a financial possibility to actually practice some IR-flying since the rent of a Cessna is quite cheap as opposed to a twin-engined helicopter.
On the one hand the ATPL theory under the interim arrangement contains alot of fixed-wing only knowledge as opposed to Dragon helicopters' CPL(H) course. On the other hand there is very good feedback (questions) for the fixed-wing subjects which is of great help if you want to pass those exams.
On the one hand the ATPL theory under the interim arrangement contains alot of fixed-wing only knowledge as opposed to Dragon helicopters' CPL(H) course. On the other hand there is very good feedback (questions) for the fixed-wing subjects which is of great help if you want to pass those exams.
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Europe
Posts: 406
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
do you know if you can cross-credit any previous dual instrument time towards the IR(H)?
What about taking the Single Engine IR(H) and then a Multi-Engine IR(H) upgrade? This only requires 5hrs and a type-rating (which you would have to do anyway)
Guest
Posts: n/a
Many different ways to skin this cat I think, but I think the general consensus is leaning toward doing all the ATPL theory first. As topendtorque showed it is considerably cheaper to do the IR (H) in Oz, and then do a conversion in the UK, so that is definitely an option. There are also good options to do the same in NZ if you are forced to pay for it yourself. A friend of mine has recently done the fixed wing ATPL(A) (also military rotary), and did most of his fixed wing in the US. There is considerable saving to be had. You can do the majority of the hours there, then come backt to the UK, do the minimum for the conversion (if memory serves - around 5hrs), and then an IR. Slightly complicated though, I reckon, if you want to stay rotary.
Many, many options, and it would be interesting to hear what others have done to skin this particular cat, or what other ways people have heard.
As far as the CPL(H) thoery course - I think it is probably the best idea if you intend to stay within single engine, VFR work. I have heard some good things about Dragon, and their instructors, although I do not know anyone who has done their thoery course. So I think it is worth having a very real idea of where the jobs lie. I would be very interested to hear any opinions on this.
Many, many options, and it would be interesting to hear what others have done to skin this particular cat, or what other ways people have heard.
As far as the CPL(H) thoery course - I think it is probably the best idea if you intend to stay within single engine, VFR work. I have heard some good things about Dragon, and their instructors, although I do not know anyone who has done their thoery course. So I think it is worth having a very real idea of where the jobs lie. I would be very interested to hear any opinions on this.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: LGW
Age: 42
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ATPL(H) or CPL(H)?
Hi All,
I am currently having major dilemas!
I am part way through my PPL in the UK and have up until now been aiming to continue on to my ATPL.
I am now wondering whether I should actually go for my CPLH?!
For me Helicopters are in my blood with several family members having been profesional helicopter pilots but just wanted some broader advice.
My main concern is with regard to job opportunities, as well as salaries etc.
I have had many friends who have trained, and still are training at OAT for their ATPL so know the course as so to speek.
If I were to go the CPLH route I would rather go abroad, potentially Oz to do the course for both financial reasons, but also for the preferential weather!
If anyone has any advice in the matter I would be extremly greatfull!
Cheers.......
I am currently having major dilemas!
I am part way through my PPL in the UK and have up until now been aiming to continue on to my ATPL.
I am now wondering whether I should actually go for my CPLH?!
For me Helicopters are in my blood with several family members having been profesional helicopter pilots but just wanted some broader advice.
My main concern is with regard to job opportunities, as well as salaries etc.
I have had many friends who have trained, and still are training at OAT for their ATPL so know the course as so to speek.
If I were to go the CPLH route I would rather go abroad, potentially Oz to do the course for both financial reasons, but also for the preferential weather!
If anyone has any advice in the matter I would be extremly greatfull!
Cheers.......
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: London
Age: 43
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I know exactly what you mean. I have both licenses ( fatpl for aeroplanes and cpl for helicopters ) and
I can tell you, that the helicopter business is harder than the fixed wing business. To find a job you
need experience. Many operators require 1000h flight time. This is caused by the insurance companies.
With 1000h you can apply for a job on Jet Ranger. If you have less than 1000h it's very difficult. Perhaps
you will find a job on a Robinson 22 ( power line control ). You can expect 200 euro per day, if you are
flying on a Jet Ranger and if you are a free lance pilot. As a full time pilot you can normally expect
1500 euro after tax.
For a job on a big ship ( offshore operation ) you'll need ifr. An ifr rating for helicopter is very expansive.
I think, that you should start with a fixed wing atpl. Later, if you found a job, you can still do your cplh by
a bridging course.
I can tell you, that the helicopter business is harder than the fixed wing business. To find a job you
need experience. Many operators require 1000h flight time. This is caused by the insurance companies.
With 1000h you can apply for a job on Jet Ranger. If you have less than 1000h it's very difficult. Perhaps
you will find a job on a Robinson 22 ( power line control ). You can expect 200 euro per day, if you are
flying on a Jet Ranger and if you are a free lance pilot. As a full time pilot you can normally expect
1500 euro after tax.
For a job on a big ship ( offshore operation ) you'll need ifr. An ifr rating for helicopter is very expansive.
I think, that you should start with a fixed wing atpl. Later, if you found a job, you can still do your cplh by
a bridging course.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Sweden
Age: 45
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
atpl for sure
I think you should go for the ATPL(H) theory. It's roughly the same price. You'll take a few more classes, but after that you have 3 years to take your IR rating. Let's face it, that's where the money is.
A PPL(A) with IR(A) is a cheaper way to obtain a IR rating, how much it's worth in the heli world is diffrent in diffrent parts of the world I think. That's what I'm gonna do.
best regards
RotorS
A PPL(A) with IR(A) is a cheaper way to obtain a IR rating, how much it's worth in the heli world is diffrent in diffrent parts of the world I think. That's what I'm gonna do.
best regards
RotorS
Join Date: May 2005
Location: 34'
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just want to throw the cat amoungst the pidgeons here. 
Why not try to enjoy the whole experience each day and try not to stress too much about the future. There seems to be TOO much concern with earning the big bucks and not enough about enjoying why we do this in the first place.
We all know there are large sums of money we have to come up with to do this and most of us have given up all we have, and more, to fly and want to get the most out of our investment....
BUT, and to explain why i say what i say..
..I lost a friend this week in a flight training crash and he was the same as you all worrying about everything. If he knew his time was coming sure as mustard he would have enjoyed his flying more and stressed about the future less.
Now don't take this as 'no need to plan for the future', just try to enjoy todays flight more and the future will happen as it happens...you just need to guide it a little.
34'
Why not try to enjoy the whole experience each day and try not to stress too much about the future. There seems to be TOO much concern with earning the big bucks and not enough about enjoying why we do this in the first place.
We all know there are large sums of money we have to come up with to do this and most of us have given up all we have, and more, to fly and want to get the most out of our investment....
BUT, and to explain why i say what i say..
..I lost a friend this week in a flight training crash and he was the same as you all worrying about everything. If he knew his time was coming sure as mustard he would have enjoyed his flying more and stressed about the future less.
Now don't take this as 'no need to plan for the future', just try to enjoy todays flight more and the future will happen as it happens...you just need to guide it a little.
34'
Hovering AND talking
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
Age: 59
Posts: 5,705
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The gamble is, will you get your instrument rating within three years? If not, and you did the ATPL(H) exams, you will have to resit 6 for the IR. Or, do the 9 CPL(H) exams, and sit the IR ones, if and when you need to.
The IR route is a big gamble because it costs so much. The safer option is CPL(H) and FI (instructor) in order to build hours.
Try a search as I know this question has been answered many times before; usually quite succinctly by Camp Freddie!
Cheers
Whirls
PS - for what it's worth, I'm doing CPL(H) route as I don't reckon I stand a snowball's chance in hell of getting an IR within three years and I'd quite enjoy being an instructor.
PPS - sorry to hear about your friend 34' - condolences.
The IR route is a big gamble because it costs so much. The safer option is CPL(H) and FI (instructor) in order to build hours.
Try a search as I know this question has been answered many times before; usually quite succinctly by Camp Freddie!
Cheers
Whirls
PS - for what it's worth, I'm doing CPL(H) route as I don't reckon I stand a snowball's chance in hell of getting an IR within three years and I'd quite enjoy being an instructor.
PPS - sorry to hear about your friend 34' - condolences.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: 34'
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
naa..it's all cool Whirls.
I just get a little upset when guys get fully stressed about this whole thing...
Just make sure you enjoy the journey, every minute. I live in a country where some people will never ever get the chance to fly in a helicopter
and i get to do it every day 
...it's such a privilege to be able to do this, so make sure you appreciate and enjoy it 
..and i'm also doing the instructor route without IR, but instructing is not for everyone afterall. Lets worry about IR later if we have to....
Best of luck to the lads though...
I just get a little upset when guys get fully stressed about this whole thing...
Just make sure you enjoy the journey, every minute. I live in a country where some people will never ever get the chance to fly in a helicopter
and i get to do it every day ...it's such a privilege to be able to do this, so make sure you appreciate and enjoy it ..and i'm also doing the instructor route without IR, but instructing is not for everyone afterall. Lets worry about IR later if we have to....
Best of luck to the lads though...
Join Date: May 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 118
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Whirlygig
The gamble is, will you get your instrument rating within three years? If not, and you did the ATPL(H) exams, you will have to resit 6 for the IR. Or, do the 9 CPL(H) exams, and sit the IR ones, if and when you need to.
More a question than a statement....