PC Plod delivers notam personally!
Headsethair: most police ASU's wouldnt know how to set a TDA up let alone a TRA!! It is usually the OSD planning dept that controls this type of restriction and its application. As NLJ sated correctly, rarely are the aviators at the ASU contacted about aviation related aspects of police work
If you had enetered my TRA and I was airborne at the time, I would have your height on my TCAS
If you had enetered my TRA and I was airborne at the time, I would have your height on my TCAS
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have to agree with TC we are presuming that the decsion was made locally for the TRA. I would probally say the descion came from a lot higher up probally from central government.After all is that not the reson why they are trying group everything in to regions.Sadly the modern local "bobby" is no longer allowed to think for himself, he is just the messeger.The two local police officer may not have known what a TRA until about 15 minites earlier when they were given the task to deliver the message. The point is don't shoot the messenger. take it out of the corrupt politicians in the big house in the big smoke it probally came from them in the first place.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 593
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bronx: Wind your neck in. Can we keep this intelligent and interesting ? Or are we sliding down the slippery path again ?
TC: I know of at least one police force where the ASU has input to the drawing-up of TRAs. In fact I know one UK force who put officers into civilian ATC for an event last year - clearing every aircraft, not just ones that wanted access to the TRA.
NLJ: The only one setting off your TCAS was you. The other aircraft was operating all the time around Salmesbury at 1500-1700 ft QNH - it couldn't go lower because it was transmitting a continuous live signal to a truck buried the other side of the hill in Blackburn (inside the TRA) and the signal would only hold together at 1500 or higher. You were the one doing the formate - it's entirely up to you how close you want to come. All I know is that at one point you came close enough on our starboard side that we could see you very clearly. You also popped up on our port and you sneeked up behind us at one point - but fortunately we have the world's best rear mirror. Our tail camera saw you. And most of it is on tape.
At no point did we hear any communication from you to Warton that may have been intended for us - if you were worried about your TCAS a simple call to ATC would have got our attention. Your PAOM allows you to operate much lower than any other civilian aircraft - and most times we come across ASU helis they are taking advantage of that freedom.
And for other readers of this thread (who are most likely beginning to nod off) let me just reaffirm - the airspace around Salmesbury was uncontrolled with no TRA and was a very uncongested area. If NLJ was getting TCAS alerts, he knew exactly where they were getting their hits because we were the only other aircraft around.
You know - it is possible for us all to get on. In other areas (like the Met) we enjoy a good relationship with the ASUs. We are even freely given some of their freqs so we can exchange air-to-air information. We are not the bad lads - we have a camera, lens, live link and 3+ hrs endurance that could be extremely useful in any security situation - I know this because we have had 2 approaches from security services whilst on tasks.
We are simply doing our freelance job legally in free airspace.
Although if you look back to the start of this thread you would wonder if I am being naive........
NLJ - if you want to talk please PM me with a number.
TC: I know of at least one police force where the ASU has input to the drawing-up of TRAs. In fact I know one UK force who put officers into civilian ATC for an event last year - clearing every aircraft, not just ones that wanted access to the TRA.
NLJ: The only one setting off your TCAS was you. The other aircraft was operating all the time around Salmesbury at 1500-1700 ft QNH - it couldn't go lower because it was transmitting a continuous live signal to a truck buried the other side of the hill in Blackburn (inside the TRA) and the signal would only hold together at 1500 or higher. You were the one doing the formate - it's entirely up to you how close you want to come. All I know is that at one point you came close enough on our starboard side that we could see you very clearly. You also popped up on our port and you sneeked up behind us at one point - but fortunately we have the world's best rear mirror. Our tail camera saw you. And most of it is on tape.
At no point did we hear any communication from you to Warton that may have been intended for us - if you were worried about your TCAS a simple call to ATC would have got our attention. Your PAOM allows you to operate much lower than any other civilian aircraft - and most times we come across ASU helis they are taking advantage of that freedom.
And for other readers of this thread (who are most likely beginning to nod off) let me just reaffirm - the airspace around Salmesbury was uncontrolled with no TRA and was a very uncongested area. If NLJ was getting TCAS alerts, he knew exactly where they were getting their hits because we were the only other aircraft around.
You know - it is possible for us all to get on. In other areas (like the Met) we enjoy a good relationship with the ASUs. We are even freely given some of their freqs so we can exchange air-to-air information. We are not the bad lads - we have a camera, lens, live link and 3+ hrs endurance that could be extremely useful in any security situation - I know this because we have had 2 approaches from security services whilst on tasks.
We are simply doing our freelance job legally in free airspace.
Although if you look back to the start of this thread you would wonder if I am being naive........
NLJ - if you want to talk please PM me with a number.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The plain and simple fact is if you are operating outside the TRA that is published on NOTAMS, then you have nothing to worry about.For what ever reason the TRA is there is irrelavent, if you bust it then be prepared to face the music.Headsehair, so what if there is'nt a TRA at Liverpool or any other venue it could be down to somebody in that area not doing his job, or the fact that there was specific intelligence to a threat that required the TRA.
It sounds like you like to push the boundary's and occasionally cross them to get the best footage like any other press photographer. Sadly when your caught out a big umbrella suddenly goes up and it's somebody else's fault.
It sounds like you like to push the boundary's and occasionally cross them to get the best footage like any other press photographer. Sadly when your caught out a big umbrella suddenly goes up and it's somebody else's fault.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: lancashire
Age: 53
Posts: 140
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why can't people just get on, your all in the same industry, let him who is without sin cast the first stone, it was an interesting thread till the everybody started having a go. Debate yes, personal snipes no.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quote: from headsethair
And you have to question the whole reason why the TRA was established. It didn't even cover the Salmesbury BAe site where Dr Rice made her first speech - so anyone could have legally flown over this old airfield using the 500ft rule!
Later the same day there were no TRAs for Liverpool where the good doctor made further appearances. So why the Blackburn TRA ???
And you have to question the whole reason why the TRA was established. It didn't even cover the Salmesbury BAe site where Dr Rice made her first speech - so anyone could have legally flown over this old airfield using the 500ft rule!
Later the same day there were no TRAs for Liverpool where the good doctor made further appearances. So why the Blackburn TRA ???
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 573
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Please be very careful what you are putting down in print as for sure the CIA etc are reading all these posts and briefing the Secrtary of Defence who will advise the President (George) to take some form of military action to put down the rebelous individual/s. Watch out for an early morning (that's before midday) strike intended for whoever but navigation errors could cause any of us to be the recipients of balistic items.
I think our police were doing their best to advise the best course of action seeing that they are only there to carry out the requests of the government under the CAA advised rules, etc.....
I think our police were doing their best to advise the best course of action seeing that they are only there to carry out the requests of the government under the CAA advised rules, etc.....
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: London
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Daft bat
Your innocent view is quite refreshing. If only life was that simple.
In time you may well have a different opinion. Just because we live in the Uk, don't expect the authorities to be honest and fair.
From time to time events occur and authorities can behave in a disgustingly corrupt manor. Perhaps you will be fortunate enough not to experience this.
Corruption and dishonesty can occur for minor matters i.e. motoring offences to serious matters like the chap most likely fitted up for Jill Dandos murder.
The main thing is after these miscarriages of Justice occur, no one gives and damn and the authorities do their best to suppress all evidence.
Therefore in this case, it is just not worth the risk, dont fly. One way or another, if the old bill want to they'll have you. It has happened before and will happen again...nothing new.
Your innocent view is quite refreshing. If only life was that simple.
In time you may well have a different opinion. Just because we live in the Uk, don't expect the authorities to be honest and fair.
From time to time events occur and authorities can behave in a disgustingly corrupt manor. Perhaps you will be fortunate enough not to experience this.
Corruption and dishonesty can occur for minor matters i.e. motoring offences to serious matters like the chap most likely fitted up for Jill Dandos murder.
The main thing is after these miscarriages of Justice occur, no one gives and damn and the authorities do their best to suppress all evidence.
Therefore in this case, it is just not worth the risk, dont fly. One way or another, if the old bill want to they'll have you. It has happened before and will happen again...nothing new.
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: England
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
headsethair, take a chill pill. I had no problem with the way you were operating on Friday, thats why you didn't hear me talk to Warton ATC about you. The mention of TCAS going off was "Tongue in Cheek" and in itself was a minor annoyance. When it goes off and you don't know where it's coming from 
is when life gets a bit more interesting. I knew all along it was an R44 that was setting it off, my reply to BRONX merely cofirmed that the penny had dropped and that I knew YOU were in the Robbo.
Yes ASU aircraft can fly very low (No closer than 50' from any Person, Vessel, Vehicle or Structure!) but as I consider myself to be an environmentally friendly pilot I don't take advantage of that freedom unless operationally necessary. Those occasions are very rare.
NLJ
ps: I bet my black cat is blacker than your black cat
is when life gets a bit more interesting. I knew all along it was an R44 that was setting it off, my reply to BRONX merely cofirmed that the penny had dropped and that I knew YOU were in the Robbo.Yes ASU aircraft can fly very low (No closer than 50' from any Person, Vessel, Vehicle or Structure!) but as I consider myself to be an environmentally friendly pilot I don't take advantage of that freedom unless operationally necessary. Those occasions are very rare.
NLJ
ps: I bet my black cat is blacker than your black cat
PPRuNe Bashaholic
Moderator
Join Date: Jun 1997
Location: The Peoples Alcoholic Republic of Jockistan
Posts: 1,442
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In fact I know one UK force who put officers into civilian ATC for an event last year - clearing every aircraft, not just ones that wanted access to the TRA.
If it wasn't ..... disregard
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 593
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
NLJ :
Look - our lens is very good, but not that good that we could see your cheeks........just leaving a gap here for the obvious locker room retorts........
Very chilled. Good to hear from a pilot with altitude.
Sorry, attitude.
10W
Not strictly G8 (which was the Gleneagles TRA) - but the TRA for the Edinburgh area topped at 2000 QNH. No access was permitted except for the ASU helicopter. We and others chose to operate above the TRA in the Class D and we were given clearances which had passed through police permission first. On one occasion (the night of the Edinburgh Live 8 concert) my pilot was asked over the air by ATC for his full name before being given access. I bet that one isn't in the ATC manual.
This request was overheard by an incoming airliner whose pilot chipped in "Have you been speeding then ?"
The mention of TCAS going off was "Tongue in Cheek"
Very chilled. Good to hear from a pilot with altitude.
Sorry, attitude.
10W
However, the rest of the statement shows you were misinformed.
This request was overheard by an incoming airliner whose pilot chipped in "Have you been speeding then ?"
Last edited by headsethair; 3rd Apr 2006 at 16:42.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: New York City
Posts: 820
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
headsethair
My neck's just fine, but thanks for your concern.
Just provided NLJ with some bait which he cast perfectly and you bit hard.
'Couldn't see whether the pilot was one of the famed members of this Forum.......and he probably won't own up now given the "altitude" problem.'
And you ask me to keep it "intelligent."
My neck's just fine, but thanks for your concern.
Just provided NLJ with some bait which he cast perfectly and you bit hard.
'Couldn't see whether the pilot was one of the famed members of this Forum.......and he probably won't own up now given the "altitude" problem.'
And you ask me to keep it "intelligent."
PPRuNe Bashaholic
Moderator
Join Date: Jun 1997
Location: The Peoples Alcoholic Republic of Jockistan
Posts: 1,442
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for the extra info. There's a few ATC'ers at my unit who would have asked for the Plods to be forcibly removed from the Ops Room for causing a distraction, and therefore introducing a safety hazard 
The authorities seem not to know that the airspace they specify is the only airspace they can legislate for entry. Operating right up to the vertical or horizontal limits is not only 'legal', it's a pilots right, should they wish to do so. Of course, allowing a reasonable avoidance margin of error to ensure you don't inadvertantly enter is probably a good piece of airmanship.
Bottom line is, if the authorities want you to stay clear of certain airspace, it's their responsibility to specify it correctly using a reasonable volume of airspace related to any threat or intelligence received. And not add on their own undefined buffers which they try to enforce by threats and bullying.
The authorities seem not to know that the airspace they specify is the only airspace they can legislate for entry. Operating right up to the vertical or horizontal limits is not only 'legal', it's a pilots right, should they wish to do so. Of course, allowing a reasonable avoidance margin of error to ensure you don't inadvertantly enter is probably a good piece of airmanship.
Bottom line is, if the authorities want you to stay clear of certain airspace, it's their responsibility to specify it correctly using a reasonable volume of airspace related to any threat or intelligence received. And not add on their own undefined buffers which they try to enforce by threats and bullying.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 2,584
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Don't you just love these conspiracy theorists? Object to one "miscarriage of justice" and recommend in the next breath that you accede to another. But I suppose consistancy is hard to achieve in never-never land.
Oooh! Wicked Plod!
Do us all a favour aa, and using the superior knowledge and judgement that allows you to see so clearly what an entire courtroom of people who were in posession of all the facts in the Dando case so clumsily missed, (not to mention the rest of the press and public who had access to just the same info as you) please enlighten us as to exactly how the Police would go about stitching up someone who did not fly through a TRA, and in the event of their stitch being related to aviation legislation, how their expertise, knowledge and authority in that field might be presented to a court so as to make their "evidence" credible. And just as importantly, why they might want to do this in the first place.
Go on, be as inventive as you like!
"Staffs Police Bust Terror Cell! Iraqui Sleeper-agent Caught Redhanded!
Church Going Locally Born English Businessman Bought Helicopter Five Years Ago In Hope Of High Level USGovt Visit Nearby.
Brainwashed In Local Tandoori!
Lethal Swiss Army Knife Found On Board!
Ploice Believe Scores More Embedded Helicopters At Large.
it is just not worth the risk, dont fly. One way or another, if the old bill want to they'll have you.
Do us all a favour aa, and using the superior knowledge and judgement that allows you to see so clearly what an entire courtroom of people who were in posession of all the facts in the Dando case so clumsily missed, (not to mention the rest of the press and public who had access to just the same info as you) please enlighten us as to exactly how the Police would go about stitching up someone who did not fly through a TRA, and in the event of their stitch being related to aviation legislation, how their expertise, knowledge and authority in that field might be presented to a court so as to make their "evidence" credible. And just as importantly, why they might want to do this in the first place.
Go on, be as inventive as you like!
"Staffs Police Bust Terror Cell! Iraqui Sleeper-agent Caught Redhanded!
Church Going Locally Born English Businessman Bought Helicopter Five Years Ago In Hope Of High Level USGovt Visit Nearby.
Brainwashed In Local Tandoori!
Lethal Swiss Army Knife Found On Board!
Ploice Believe Scores More Embedded Helicopters At Large.
Last edited by Agaricus bisporus; 3rd Apr 2006 at 16:54.
Hovering AND talking
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
Age: 59
Posts: 5,705
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
courtroom of people who were in posession of all the facts
Cheers
Whirls
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Corruption and dishonesty can occur for minor matters i.e. motoring offences to serious matters like the chap most likely fitted up for Jill Dandos murder.
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 391
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Autostar seems hell bent on the "hate compaign" against coppers doesnt he This and another thread shows Autostart to be having problems and I do wonder at his generalisation of the Police in the UK. I would ask Auto, whom he would call if he was threatened, burgled had property taken , who faces the man with the knife while he sits in comfort at home, whom sadly as we have recently seen gives their lives for the protection of others...your comments are disrespectful of the brave ones no longer here.Just remember one bad experience you may have had does not mean all that is blue is bad
This and another thread shows Autostart to be having problems and I do wonder at his generalisation of the Police in the UK. I would ask Auto, whom he would call if he was threatened, burgled had property taken , who faces the man with the knife while he sits in comfort at home, whom sadly as we have recently seen gives their lives for the protection of others...your comments are disrespectful of the brave ones no longer here.Just remember one bad experience you may have had does not mean all that is blue is bad
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Alderney or Lancashire UK
Posts: 570
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by 10W
Bottom line is, if the authorities want you to stay clear of certain airspace, it's their responsibility to specify it correctly using a reasonable volume of airspace related to any threat or intelligence received. And not add on their own undefined buffers which they try to enforce by threats and bullying.
Incidently, I just found out that the 2 PCs also went to the local Microlight Centre, another mile from the TRA and told them not to fly over Hoghton Tower.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: London
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Daft Bat
Ok lets put it another way, it is most likely if the veiled threat was ignored nothing would happen...however one cannot be sure.
For centuries governments and authorities have misbehaved, not much has really changed. In many ways things have got worse.
You know, early this century the Brits bombed the Kurds in Iraq for ten years, using delayed timed bombs into the villages. There are many injustices in the world carried out by governments and authorities.
It really is good advice not to mess with the authorities! You may be ok, but equally you may come a cropper.
It is never black and white, i.e. the law will not necessarily protect you even if you are in the right.
My advice..if some copper advises you..listen and take notice..even if you are in the right…you really have no protection.
Volrider
OK, i'll repeat..most coppers are relatively honest, perhaps relatively daft but certainly not deserving of any "hate campaign" that you mention. Evidence is changed routinely and I know this from a current serving officer. He believes it is doing a public service to help the courts obtain convictions so his motives may be good...but it is dishonest. But this is not the point of this thread and you are sidetracking the issue.
Well I have been burgled at knifepoint and police were not interested, my car has been broken into and again no interest..but this is not the point.
The point is do not antagonise the police, if they ask/ advise you not to fly..you would be sensible to take the advice. If decide not to follow this advice you may be in alot of trouble!!
Ok lets put it another way, it is most likely if the veiled threat was ignored nothing would happen...however one cannot be sure.
For centuries governments and authorities have misbehaved, not much has really changed. In many ways things have got worse.
You know, early this century the Brits bombed the Kurds in Iraq for ten years, using delayed timed bombs into the villages. There are many injustices in the world carried out by governments and authorities.
It really is good advice not to mess with the authorities! You may be ok, but equally you may come a cropper.
It is never black and white, i.e. the law will not necessarily protect you even if you are in the right.
My advice..if some copper advises you..listen and take notice..even if you are in the right…you really have no protection.
Volrider
OK, i'll repeat..most coppers are relatively honest, perhaps relatively daft but certainly not deserving of any "hate campaign" that you mention. Evidence is changed routinely and I know this from a current serving officer. He believes it is doing a public service to help the courts obtain convictions so his motives may be good...but it is dishonest. But this is not the point of this thread and you are sidetracking the issue.
Well I have been burgled at knifepoint and police were not interested, my car has been broken into and again no interest..but this is not the point.
The point is do not antagonise the police, if they ask/ advise you not to fly..you would be sensible to take the advice. If decide not to follow this advice you may be in alot of trouble!!