stuck left pedal in hover: what do you do?
Similar situation with risk and training versus cause of accident
A meeting was held at FAA Headquarters in March to address the shortage of qualified FAA Inspectors to administer helicopter CFI initial tests. It appears that as a result of that meeting, touchdown autorotations will soon be eliminated as a requirement on the Helicopter CFI PTS. Due to the inordinate number of hard-landing accidents that have happened during the conduct of touchdown autos on check rides, evidently the NTSB had previously recommended to the FAA that touchdowns be eliminated from the CFI practical test.
It appears that instead, there may be a requirement similar to the CFI Airplane spin endorsement, whereby an applicant for a helicopter CFI will be required to have an endorsement from a CFI stating that the applicant has successfully demonstrated proficiency in performing and teaching a touch-down autorotation. This change will mandate that some touchdown practice and proficiency still be conducted during CFI training, but no demonstration of an actual touchdown will be required on the CFI check ride - only power-recovery.
This should all become effective and hit the street in the form of an FAA Bulletin or new CFI PTS release in a matter of weeks or maybe even days. The good news is that this change will free up some FSDO Inspectors who were not previously National Resource Inspectors, to now administer CFI initial check rides.
It appears that instead, there may be a requirement similar to the CFI Airplane spin endorsement, whereby an applicant for a helicopter CFI will be required to have an endorsement from a CFI stating that the applicant has successfully demonstrated proficiency in performing and teaching a touch-down autorotation. This change will mandate that some touchdown practice and proficiency still be conducted during CFI training, but no demonstration of an actual touchdown will be required on the CFI check ride - only power-recovery.
This should all become effective and hit the street in the form of an FAA Bulletin or new CFI PTS release in a matter of weeks or maybe even days. The good news is that this change will free up some FSDO Inspectors who were not previously National Resource Inspectors, to now administer CFI initial check rides.
Can I go to the back of the queue for the CFIT training, please? Sounds like an expensive and painful exercise, presumably only done once!
(Before I get jumped on; it was tongue in cheek!)
(Before I get jumped on; it was tongue in cheek!)
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Nigel is right, but I was refering to the fact that the #1 killer can't get elected dog-catcher, but we spend hours discussing esoteric emergeinies that occur once per century.
How about a new thread - What to do if the main rotor shaft breaks. Happens just as frequently.
Now that my rant is over, the solution to a stuck tr control in a hover is do nothing. Since the tr is stuck where you left it, you are not spinning wildly, so just cool your jets. When you finish getting nervous, just roll down the throttle about 5 to 10 % Nr, and let the aircraft sink. It will probably rotate to the left a bit, but so what. Let it sink to tounchdown, then roll the throttle all the way off, lower the pitch, and buy a beer.
How about a new thread - What to do if the main rotor shaft breaks. Happens just as frequently.
Now that my rant is over, the solution to a stuck tr control in a hover is do nothing. Since the tr is stuck where you left it, you are not spinning wildly, so just cool your jets. When you finish getting nervous, just roll down the throttle about 5 to 10 % Nr, and let the aircraft sink. It will probably rotate to the left a bit, but so what. Let it sink to tounchdown, then roll the throttle all the way off, lower the pitch, and buy a beer.
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Careful what you ask for Nick.
MR Shaft fracture.
Easy. Fly 10 ft from ground.
NTSB Identification: IAD01LA031.
Accident occurred Saturday, February 03, 2001 in Napoleon, OH
Probable Cause Approval Date: 5/13/2003
Aircraft: Enstrom F28A, registration: N98PM
Injuries: 3 Uninjured.
The helicopter developed a vibration, and the pilot elected to return to the departure airport. On final approach to landing, approximately 10 feet above the ground, the main rotor mast fractured, and the main rotor system departed the helicopter. The pilot and two passengers were not injured.
PS. Mine has the fatter shaft.
MR Shaft fracture.
Easy. Fly 10 ft from ground.
NTSB Identification: IAD01LA031.
Accident occurred Saturday, February 03, 2001 in Napoleon, OH
Probable Cause Approval Date: 5/13/2003
Aircraft: Enstrom F28A, registration: N98PM
Injuries: 3 Uninjured.
The helicopter developed a vibration, and the pilot elected to return to the departure airport. On final approach to landing, approximately 10 feet above the ground, the main rotor mast fractured, and the main rotor system departed the helicopter. The pilot and two passengers were not injured.
PS. Mine has the fatter shaft.
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Stuck left pedal emergancy.
Great thread guys, seems there are as many remedies to this situatuion as there are heli's for it to happen to. I'll throw another spanner into the works. Recently did some great company check training (here in Australia) with our chief pilot. We have 8 helis parked in close proximity to each other at a busy G.A. ramp. The emergency we practised was a stuck left pedal on T/O. Putting the machine back on the ground without rolling four or five million dollars worth of helicopters into a ball was not an option. We didn't fly it away, simply accepted the spin (it's still flying) raised the club enough to clear the hard things and moved it to a more benign area. Aside from the obvious clearance issues this also allowed me some time to get my head around the emergency.(And realise that I had very little idea how to get out of it). In the 206 we simply reduced the throttle enough to slow or stop the turn rate and induce a gentle decent. With 2hrs fuel and two up we dropped the rrpm down to about 87% where it stayed quite happily and we settled it onto the ground with about ten knots forward.
Stuck pedals, mostly due to spent shell casings are a serious risk here in Aus and after having spent the last 8 years or so using bell 47s and 206s to shoot feral animals I can tell you it is a constant concern. CASA has mandated the fitting of casing capture devices on all ejecting firearms being discharged from aircraft. This is also due to T/R damage from ejected shells.
If you can find someone with experience teaching these emergencies and get them to go for a spin (literally) with you then you may be able to keep that machine with the spinny, propeller thingy pointing up.
Later.
Stuck pedals, mostly due to spent shell casings are a serious risk here in Aus and after having spent the last 8 years or so using bell 47s and 206s to shoot feral animals I can tell you it is a constant concern. CASA has mandated the fitting of casing capture devices on all ejecting firearms being discharged from aircraft. This is also due to T/R damage from ejected shells.
If you can find someone with experience teaching these emergencies and get them to go for a spin (literally) with you then you may be able to keep that machine with the spinny, propeller thingy pointing up.
Later.
Running on from havoc's post about touchdown autos, it's interesting to hear of regulators looking to remove the requirement for them from testing for instructor qualification.
Personally, I love autos and would like to think that the vast majority of instructors could do a good one themselves, but I'm also well aware of the good chance of bending a machine in the pursuit of smooth engine off touchdowns, so I can understand owners not wanting to have their aircraft subjected to heaps of engine-offs for no great gain.
Obviously there's a compromise to be reached between realistic practice and going stupid for no good reason, but I hope that the regulatory authorities can strike the right balance.
I've been told by our own regulatory authority that touchdown autos are required for endorsements (B206, for example), but how many actually do them? I'd be happy to myself - as I say, they're fun, but I can equally understand the position of the owner who doesn't want his machine off line for an expensive repair when a power terminated auto may have done the job as well.
Personally, I love autos and would like to think that the vast majority of instructors could do a good one themselves, but I'm also well aware of the good chance of bending a machine in the pursuit of smooth engine off touchdowns, so I can understand owners not wanting to have their aircraft subjected to heaps of engine-offs for no great gain.
Obviously there's a compromise to be reached between realistic practice and going stupid for no good reason, but I hope that the regulatory authorities can strike the right balance.
I've been told by our own regulatory authority that touchdown autos are required for endorsements (B206, for example), but how many actually do them? I'd be happy to myself - as I say, they're fun, but I can equally understand the position of the owner who doesn't want his machine off line for an expensive repair when a power terminated auto may have done the job as well.
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My post above wasn't entirely without point.
My point was that if you can fly the thing to within 10 ft of the ground there is a pretty good chance you will live. It doesnt get much worse than the rotor falling off yet no-one was hurt.
I suspect the same applies stuck pedals. If you just head for the ground it may be messy but you will probably live, whatever your technique.
I'm sure if people start routinely practising hovering with a stuck pedals it will be a just matter of time before someone writes one off.
My point was that if you can fly the thing to within 10 ft of the ground there is a pretty good chance you will live. It doesnt get much worse than the rotor falling off yet no-one was hurt.
I suspect the same applies stuck pedals. If you just head for the ground it may be messy but you will probably live, whatever your technique.
I'm sure if people start routinely practising hovering with a stuck pedals it will be a just matter of time before someone writes one off.
I have always thought it crazy to practice things that will not help save life, whilst at the same time wreck loads of helicopters which only has the effect of putting insurance up and therefore pricing someone else out of the market. Autos to the ground are not necessary and i hope this will reduce the number of neadless claims.
On the subject of shooting out of Helis, is it illegal to do this in UK due to dropping an object rule or can you get dispensation....only interested as shooting rabbits and foxes sounds great fun at 20 knots 20 feet !!
On the subject of shooting out of Helis, is it illegal to do this in UK due to dropping an object rule or can you get dispensation....only interested as shooting rabbits and foxes sounds great fun at 20 knots 20 feet !!
I'm sure if people start routinely practising hovering with a stuck pedals it will be a just matter of time before someone writes one off.
Part of the fascination with such drills is learning how the aircraft reacts to throttle and collective or the combinations of both.
When you fly Huey's with the chain drive tail rotor controls....it does not hurt to be up on stuck pedal situations as they can happen should the chain get a bit recalcitrant.
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Originally Posted by SASless
....it does not hurt to be up on stuck pedal situations as they can happen should the chain get a bit recalcitrant.
RECALCITRANT! Hope they never publish that word
in any RFM.......
nigelh, I think there's a case for at least some proficiency in touchdown autos in an instructor rating - it's one of those sequences that really boosts the confidence, and I'd like to see it at least demonstrated to any student learning to fly a helicopter as well.
A bit like stalling or spinning (in an approved type) a fixed wing - why do it, rather than just talk about it? To show that there's no big scary mystery, if it's done right.
The shooting out of helicopters thing is common for culling feral pigs etc, just needs approval.
A bit like stalling or spinning (in an approved type) a fixed wing - why do it, rather than just talk about it? To show that there's no big scary mystery, if it's done right.
The shooting out of helicopters thing is common for culling feral pigs etc, just needs approval.
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Nick L
TR failure training, has always been more of a co-ordination exercise
than anything else. You have to fill the check ride up somehow.Just to get the trainee thinking!
No one expects the actual TR event to occur, but it gives people a few
minutes (premise; a competent IP) to play around close to the ground
in a non standard config.
It refreshes overall skill and confidence (as in any time you fly with a
competent and current IP).. It should anyway?
Nick.Give us your thoughts on providing a thorough 135/LPC/PPC ride in
say a Bell 206 or Astar..
Imagine a small operator, 3-4 machines, You're the DO/CP /Check Airman.
Scenario is: I'm a line pilot and haven't had any training since my
last 135 and OAS rides around 12 months ago. We've talked about the machine.pre-flight is done, and we're are sitting on an uncontrolled field.the courseware is you,the machine and me! It's a VFR ride similar to the many thousands given every year for standard 135/OAS Ops
This is a food for thought exercise! I appreciate your comments about CFIT etc..But I'm trying to figure out how? at grass roots level, can the training department (such as it is) lift it's game. but incorporating the 84-10/LPC/PPC items that have to be accomplished regardless.
Bear in mind; the small operator is pretty tight on available Check
and training hours. Factory school or FSI is out of the question, as the owners only gonna pay for that if mandated by the FEDs or Insurance...
170'
TR failure training, has always been more of a co-ordination exercise
than anything else. You have to fill the check ride up somehow.Just to get the trainee thinking!
No one expects the actual TR event to occur, but it gives people a few
minutes (premise; a competent IP) to play around close to the ground
in a non standard config.
It refreshes overall skill and confidence (as in any time you fly with a
competent and current IP).. It should anyway?
Nick.Give us your thoughts on providing a thorough 135/LPC/PPC ride in
say a Bell 206 or Astar..
Imagine a small operator, 3-4 machines, You're the DO/CP /Check Airman.
Scenario is: I'm a line pilot and haven't had any training since my
last 135 and OAS rides around 12 months ago. We've talked about the machine.pre-flight is done, and we're are sitting on an uncontrolled field.the courseware is you,the machine and me! It's a VFR ride similar to the many thousands given every year for standard 135/OAS Ops
This is a food for thought exercise! I appreciate your comments about CFIT etc..But I'm trying to figure out how? at grass roots level, can the training department (such as it is) lift it's game. but incorporating the 84-10/LPC/PPC items that have to be accomplished regardless.
Bear in mind; the small operator is pretty tight on available Check
and training hours. Factory school or FSI is out of the question, as the owners only gonna pay for that if mandated by the FEDs or Insurance...
170'
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Autos to ground
Nigelh re: Autos to the ground
I am glad that in my training I HAD to do many, because when I realy had to do one in the real world, even with all the adrenalin flowing I still didn’t panic as I new I could pull it off (no cheap remarks please) and I did with zero damage or injuries
I am glad that in my training I HAD to do many, because when I realy had to do one in the real world, even with all the adrenalin flowing I still didn’t panic as I new I could pull it off (no cheap remarks please) and I did with zero damage or injuries
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Tail rotor failures do happen. Every year in Canada there are accidents attributed to Loss of tail-rotor or loss of tail rotor effect (LTE), though the later is more prevalent.
Though more accidents are attributed to collision with terrain there are still a significant number attributed to tail rotor issues .
I know one pilot who has expeinced 2 (two) complete tail rotor failures during his career. I think it is still worthwhile to train for it .
From the report in the link:
"The helicopter lost tail-rotor authority while in a hover at low altitude, positioning a heavy load. The pilot could not regain control before the helicopter crashed."
http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/...8/A02W0178.asp
"
The pilot lost yaw control when the tail-rotor drive shaft's splined drive became disengaged from the tail-rotor transmission input gear"
http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/...7/A01P0047.asp
"
Though more accidents are attributed to collision with terrain there are still a significant number attributed to tail rotor issues .
I know one pilot who has expeinced 2 (two) complete tail rotor failures during his career. I think it is still worthwhile to train for it .
From the report in the link:
"The helicopter lost tail-rotor authority while in a hover at low altitude, positioning a heavy load. The pilot could not regain control before the helicopter crashed."
http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/...8/A02W0178.asp
"
The pilot lost yaw control when the tail-rotor drive shaft's splined drive became disengaged from the tail-rotor transmission input gear"
http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/...7/A01P0047.asp
"
Last edited by IHL; 11th Apr 2006 at 17:22.
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Originally Posted by Mr Selfish
Above Datum
Rumour has it that an EMS captain in Australia practiced autos in a B412 sim and this helped with the successful out come when a “real” one became necessary.
MS
Rumour has it that an EMS captain in Australia practiced autos in a B412 sim and this helped with the successful out come when a “real” one became necessary.
MS
Stuck left pedal in a hover
This topic has been touched on a little bit but I do have one question that I would like to ask. I remember demonstrating stuck left pedal on a max performance on take off and my instructor used clockwise movements of the cyclic and pumped the collective to slow down the rate of left turn. What do these do that they would decrease the rate of turn? Thanks
Overcontrolling in the hover - since that is what he is effectively doing - saps power by increasing drag.