stuck left pedal in hover: what do you do?
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I agree....much rather have a small crash or maybe not , from 5 foot than possibility of massive pile up !!!!
s at the same time?Not me I'm 'fraid! I'd love to think I'd handle it like a pro', and I can get my head around the theory, but realistically I think I would probably pull some collective to get me away from the hard stuff and, as Moosp suggests, fly it away if I can so that my spinning brain has time to realign itself and decide on a plan of action.
The best solution? Probably not. But the more likely? Yep!
I would forget about all that pulling and pushing crap . I am saying dont go off flying out of control !!! Just put it on the ground as hard as you like, you are probably not going to hurt yourself or anyone else.....if you fly off in a state of shock with full pedal you are going to become a statistic...why do it ? Insurance is there for this reason and not,in my opinion, to keep Frank Robinson in pocket money everytime some idiot "demonstrates" an EOL and screws it up !!!!!!!!
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Advanced training...
controller - Right pedal towering take offs are taught/demonstrated at Dutch Country helos as a last ditch attempt to get out of a high density altitude situation where a walk off is not possible. A spinning towering take off in the Bell47 - I wouldn't want to do it in Robbo though !
Does anyone else demonstrate or recommend this manouvere ?
Does anyone else demonstrate or recommend this manouvere ?
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Crazy to fly away from the ground while spinning. If you don't keep it perfectly level, you get roll coupling (horizontal spin becomes a vertical spin) and then you are stuffed.
Once any vertical spinning starts, the show stops. A Bell 47 in Sydney demonstrated that one a few years back, trying to fly away from a tail rotor failure at low speed, to get streamlining to stop the spin. The rotation became more vertical, and the result was an uncontrolled crash into Goldfields House and a 400 foot drop to the street, instead of a more controlled sploosh into the harbour on floats.
Once any vertical spinning starts, the show stops. A Bell 47 in Sydney demonstrated that one a few years back, trying to fly away from a tail rotor failure at low speed, to get streamlining to stop the spin. The rotation became more vertical, and the result was an uncontrolled crash into Goldfields House and a 400 foot drop to the street, instead of a more controlled sploosh into the harbour on floats.
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I'm amazed you weren't trained in this at HAI! I am an HAI student and recieved plenty of training on this. It is actually really easy (at least in the 300). You'd be wise to get some training on it before trying it, if you value your life, job, student, AC.
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Stuck Pedals
A number of 'schools of thought' observed in this track
- train it
-> what - how (never done a stuck left padel with left rotation in a Robby)
- do not train it
-> hope it does not happen ?
Perhaps another approach : avoidance.
-> what are the most common "real world" cases of stuck pedals, so that we can avoid them.
I have always been wondering about that in training : I was never really given a reason why/how those things get stuck.
Any guys with real world cases that like to share them ?
d3
- train it
-> what - how (never done a stuck left padel with left rotation in a Robby)
- do not train it
-> hope it does not happen ?
Perhaps another approach : avoidance.
-> what are the most common "real world" cases of stuck pedals, so that we can avoid them.
I have always been wondering about that in training : I was never really given a reason why/how those things get stuck.
Any guys with real world cases that like to share them ?
d3
A jammed pedal in the hover is to be treated as a serious malfunction. You won't know its jammed until you commence a yaw input. If you turn in the direction of the rotors the a/c will descend. If you turn in the opposite direction to the rotors, the helo will climb.
In both instances you must LAND.
Easy in the direction of the rotor as the helo is descending.
If it climbs, roll the throttle(s) off slowly, or bring the engine lever back to GI.
EITHER WAY, DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES CLIMB OR FLY AWAY FROM THE HOVER. You will enter a whole new area of uncontrolled test flying probably ending in a violent and painful crash.
You dont know why it jammed why would you want to go flying with it then????????????????
In both instances you must LAND.
Easy in the direction of the rotor as the helo is descending.
If it climbs, roll the throttle(s) off slowly, or bring the engine lever back to GI.
EITHER WAY, DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES CLIMB OR FLY AWAY FROM THE HOVER. You will enter a whole new area of uncontrolled test flying probably ending in a violent and painful crash.
You dont know why it jammed why would you want to go flying with it then????????????????
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Way i was always taught to deal with it in the hover was to close the throtle(s) and cussion the touch down, reason being (if my knowledge of PofF is correct 
) the tail rotor provides counter torque power-on and friction power-off, by closing the throttle(s) you take away the drive to the main and tail rotor and so the a/c wants to yaw the other way, in a normal auto the tail rotor provides friction to stop this happening. So by closing the throttle with a stuck pedal (or total loss of the tail rotor) the yaw rate slows, maybe even stops, and you can use the remaining Nr to cussion your arrival at the ground. I have practised BOTH left and right pedal stuck and also total loss of tail rotor, all in the hover and this works. 
) the tail rotor provides counter torque power-on and friction power-off, by closing the throttle(s) you take away the drive to the main and tail rotor and so the a/c wants to yaw the other way, in a normal auto the tail rotor provides friction to stop this happening. So by closing the throttle with a stuck pedal (or total loss of the tail rotor) the yaw rate slows, maybe even stops, and you can use the remaining Nr to cussion your arrival at the ground. I have practised BOTH left and right pedal stuck and also total loss of tail rotor, all in the hover and this works.
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At the risk of asking the bloody obvious - how many times have stuck pedals happened (aside from the UH-1H and earlier machines)?
Aren't we practicing something that happens so rarely that we're confusing the bejeesus out of people for no good reason, and setting ourselves up for things that (almost) never happen?
There is almost nothing in the tail rotor control system of most helicopters that is going to jam the pedals (unless it's something falling into the cockpit controls part), so how exactly will this 'emergency' happen?
Aren't we practicing something that happens so rarely that we're confusing the bejeesus out of people for no good reason, and setting ourselves up for things that (almost) never happen?
There is almost nothing in the tail rotor control system of most helicopters that is going to jam the pedals (unless it's something falling into the cockpit controls part), so how exactly will this 'emergency' happen?
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Mr Selfish,
I should have said i've practised this in a sim with FULL left and right rudder and yes it does work quite nicely. Also for the total loss of the tail rotor, which spins ruddy fast!
I should have said i've practised this in a sim with FULL left and right rudder and yes it does work quite nicely. Also for the total loss of the tail rotor, which spins ruddy fast!
Last edited by Above Datums; 6th Apr 2006 at 07:21.
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MS,
Rate of yaw is faster whith a lost tail rotor then it is when it is stuck and yeah it is a good way of keeping up to date with your drills. (Also allows your instructor to fail multiple systems "for a laugh" or give you a bird strike on finals!)
Rate of yaw is faster whith a lost tail rotor then it is when it is stuck and yeah it is a good way of keeping up to date with your drills. (Also allows your instructor to fail multiple systems "for a laugh" or give you a bird strike on finals!)
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well..someone got there first
I was going to say..bullet casings, but looks like someone beat me to it. The number culprit..which is why nearly all of our shooters up here have shell socks on their guns now. Swags not that much of an issues as it fits in the seatbelt...unless your lumping a double swag around for some reason....which having seen most of the gender up here kindly known as female...i think i will stick to a single for as long as possible. The other objects known to jam pedal also include bottles of rum. Solution? drink as much as you can before you crash. Oh...and you should see the spin that results from a spent shell down the shirt, let alone in the pedals.
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Shawn is so very right, I only sit here and marvel.
Since 40% of our accidents are CFIT, and 0% are stuck whatchamacallit in a whazit, I am totally amused.
Someday we will train and fly so that we study accident cause #1 as the top priority, and accident cause #2 as the second, and so on.
Once I saw an H-53E (a 3 engined monster) doing 11 power recovery autorotations in a row. Eleven. This thread is 4 pages long, already, and growing. Same thing. Go figure.
Since 40% of our accidents are CFIT, and 0% are stuck whatchamacallit in a whazit, I am totally amused.
Someday we will train and fly so that we study accident cause #1 as the top priority, and accident cause #2 as the second, and so on.
Once I saw an H-53E (a 3 engined monster) doing 11 power recovery autorotations in a row. Eleven. This thread is 4 pages long, already, and growing. Same thing. Go figure.
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thanks for all the replies. yeah, nick is right. i've often wonder we spend all day doing autos when engine failures are hardly ever the cause the accidents
if i ever get a stuck pedal, i imagine i'll do the same as 95% of pilots. ie sh*t themselves, spin around very quickly, and bash it into the ground, and hopefully walk away
if i ever get a stuck pedal, i imagine i'll do the same as 95% of pilots. ie sh*t themselves, spin around very quickly, and bash it into the ground, and hopefully walk away
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I think that it's a very valuable skill to be proficient in dealing with stuck/failed pedals.
The chance of a pilot EVER have an emergengy of this nature is almost nil, however, the skill that you aquire enabling you to deal with a pedal emergengy may well help you avoid an accident at some point in your career.
For example, you are still fairly new to the game..flying at altitude for the first time, you come in to land on a mountain top and the wind isnt quite what you thought and all of a sudden or short final you run out of left pedal (on this day your in a Bell) and the nose seems to be wanting to go right and you cant stop it.
The skill and knowledge that makes you compentent in dealing with T/R emergencies, will definatly help you out in a situation like this. Knowing exactly what happens when you raise/lower collective, increase/decrease RPM, knowing that if you are power limited and you push in more pedal it may slow your RPM, which results in lower thrust from the T/R etc....you need to instinctively know what to do in a situation like this. Do you have to put it on the ground? Is it possible to fly away? Managing your power and directing it to the component (M /R or T/R) that needs it the most may well save your skin.
How about when your staggering out of a confined area, and you are running out of T/R....you miss read the wind a bit and now it feels like it wants to swap ends.
Your longlining and the load isnt quite clearing the top of the trees due to lack of power (ya ya get a bigger helicoper I know...dream on) ....exchanging a bit of a bit of pedal to put more power to the blades at times just be enough to get you up the extra few feet. Now you are controling yaw with the collective. If you are power limited you may be controling RPM with pedal.
My point is that learning to deal with T/R issues is a vital skill set that will help pilots in more ways than the obvious!
The chance of a pilot EVER have an emergengy of this nature is almost nil, however, the skill that you aquire enabling you to deal with a pedal emergengy may well help you avoid an accident at some point in your career.
For example, you are still fairly new to the game..flying at altitude for the first time, you come in to land on a mountain top and the wind isnt quite what you thought and all of a sudden or short final you run out of left pedal (on this day your in a Bell) and the nose seems to be wanting to go right and you cant stop it.
The skill and knowledge that makes you compentent in dealing with T/R emergencies, will definatly help you out in a situation like this. Knowing exactly what happens when you raise/lower collective, increase/decrease RPM, knowing that if you are power limited and you push in more pedal it may slow your RPM, which results in lower thrust from the T/R etc....you need to instinctively know what to do in a situation like this. Do you have to put it on the ground? Is it possible to fly away? Managing your power and directing it to the component (M /R or T/R) that needs it the most may well save your skin.
How about when your staggering out of a confined area, and you are running out of T/R....you miss read the wind a bit and now it feels like it wants to swap ends.
Your longlining and the load isnt quite clearing the top of the trees due to lack of power (ya ya get a bigger helicoper I know...dream on) ....exchanging a bit of a bit of pedal to put more power to the blades at times just be enough to get you up the extra few feet. Now you are controling yaw with the collective. If you are power limited you may be controling RPM with pedal.
My point is that learning to deal with T/R issues is a vital skill set that will help pilots in more ways than the obvious!
Shawn and Nick make a valid point, but.... is it that the stuck pedal accident rate is 0% because we train for it, or because it never happens?
In Australia, as pointed out by Ned, there are lots of stories of stuck pedal due swag/bullet casings/camera restrictions and even a few of cable/control rod jam. The EC-120 (do a pprune search) have suffered several instances of this due to front floor design allowing objects (so far most have been mobile phones) to slide forward in the cruise and jam the pedals on the left hand side. And don't mention the Huey....
I believe that this emergency should be trained for in detail for particularly susceptible types and just generally covered for other types. I made the point earlier that handling this emergency can be type specific and so should the decision whether to train for it on that particular type at all. Subsequent "heres how you do it..." posts from crewroom QFIs have reinforced this view. I mentioned on the jackstall thread that there seems to be a type endorsement problem in the industry, and this seems thread seems to help confirm it.
I have always agreed that more time and money should be spent on reducing big killers like CFIT, but stuck pedal situations are easy to teach, easy to understand, and do not require huge flying hour investments to achieve. I do not endorse pilots in the Huey or EC 120 until they can do stuck pedal and so far each pilot has been able to cope easily.
I am still wondering if thecontroller has given it a shot yet? Is there video?
In Australia, as pointed out by Ned, there are lots of stories of stuck pedal due swag/bullet casings/camera restrictions and even a few of cable/control rod jam. The EC-120 (do a pprune search) have suffered several instances of this due to front floor design allowing objects (so far most have been mobile phones) to slide forward in the cruise and jam the pedals on the left hand side. And don't mention the Huey....
I believe that this emergency should be trained for in detail for particularly susceptible types and just generally covered for other types. I made the point earlier that handling this emergency can be type specific and so should the decision whether to train for it on that particular type at all. Subsequent "heres how you do it..." posts from crewroom QFIs have reinforced this view. I mentioned on the jackstall thread that there seems to be a type endorsement problem in the industry, and this seems thread seems to help confirm it.
I have always agreed that more time and money should be spent on reducing big killers like CFIT, but stuck pedal situations are easy to teach, easy to understand, and do not require huge flying hour investments to achieve. I do not endorse pilots in the Huey or EC 120 until they can do stuck pedal and so far each pilot has been able to cope easily.
I am still wondering if thecontroller has given it a shot yet? Is there video?
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That 47 accident was nearly 40 years ago. Jim was a very capable ex air force pilot & died along with his 2 passengers.
The problem was the tr pitch change link broke due to faulty manufacturer. The blade rotated & flew off causing a massive out of balance problem which in turn caused the other blade & gear box to fall into the harbour. The fallen items weighed 32 lbs at the very end of the boom which put the forward c of g some 12 inches minimum out of limits. This made the 47 unflyable, regardless of what Jim tried to do & we do not know what he tried; that is pure speculation. The 47 clipped the AMP building & landed hard on the Goldfields building ending up in an empty office, being a Saturday morning, & not in the road. Jim was cleared totally at the subsequent court cases.
I am brave enough to disagree somewhat with Nick in that I think all emergencies should be demonstrated & practised as per the flight manual. Yes CFIT is No1 but why not practise No2, No3, etc as well. I'm sure most pilots would prefer to make a soft comfy landing after a failure or pilot stuff up than to risk injury by smashing the machine when a little correct training could maybe have prevented the hard bump.
That 47 accident was nearly 40 years ago. Jim was a very capable ex air force pilot & died along with his 2 passengers.
The problem was the tr pitch change link broke due to faulty manufacturer. The blade rotated & flew off causing a massive out of balance problem which in turn caused the other blade & gear box to fall into the harbour. The fallen items weighed 32 lbs at the very end of the boom which put the forward c of g some 12 inches minimum out of limits. This made the 47 unflyable, regardless of what Jim tried to do & we do not know what he tried; that is pure speculation. The 47 clipped the AMP building & landed hard on the Goldfields building ending up in an empty office, being a Saturday morning, & not in the road. Jim was cleared totally at the subsequent court cases.
I am brave enough to disagree somewhat with Nick in that I think all emergencies should be demonstrated & practised as per the flight manual. Yes CFIT is No1 but why not practise No2, No3, etc as well. I'm sure most pilots would prefer to make a soft comfy landing after a failure or pilot stuff up than to risk injury by smashing the machine when a little correct training could maybe have prevented the hard bump.