What's the latest news of the V22 Osprey?
Calm down there, mcpave! SIMMA DOWN, soldier! Unbunch those panties. Just because you happen to fly a V-22 doesn't make you an expert on all things rotorcraft. In fact, I'd say your opinions are HIGHLY unobjective, biased, and suspect.
In a hover, the V-22 is just two helicopters flying in very close formation and connected by a stick. Deny *that*. If a "lucky" shot manages to take out one of the proprotors, and/or perhaps one of the critical gearboxes and compromises the drive to that rotor, umm, what will happen?
Or are you telling us that your "tactics, techniques and procedures" will prevent this from happening?
Yeah, and next you'll be trying to sell me a bridge in NYC.
Perhaps you are right about one thing: Has a V-22 ever been shot at by real, live bad guys in a real combat situation? Did I miss that?
V-22 in combat = disaster in making.
You'll see. Sadly, unfortunately, we'll all see. People are gonna die. Let's hope it's not you, mcpave. But then, we don't expect to see the U.S. Air Force V-22's in Afghanistan, do we? I mean, there are no golf courses in Afghanistan...
In a hover, the V-22 is just two helicopters flying in very close formation and connected by a stick. Deny *that*. If a "lucky" shot manages to take out one of the proprotors, and/or perhaps one of the critical gearboxes and compromises the drive to that rotor, umm, what will happen?
Or are you telling us that your "tactics, techniques and procedures" will prevent this from happening?
Yeah, and next you'll be trying to sell me a bridge in NYC.
Perhaps you are right about one thing: Has a V-22 ever been shot at by real, live bad guys in a real combat situation? Did I miss that?
V-22 in combat = disaster in making.
You'll see. Sadly, unfortunately, we'll all see. People are gonna die. Let's hope it's not you, mcpave. But then, we don't expect to see the U.S. Air Force V-22's in Afghanistan, do we? I mean, there are no golf courses in Afghanistan...
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You'll see. Sadly, unfortunately, we'll all see. People are gonna die. Let's hope it's not you, mcpave. But then, we don't expect to see the U.S. Air Force V-22's in Afghanistan, do we? I mean, there are no golf courses in Afghanistan...
With comments like that no wonder you get people offside at times. Why not leave out the sarcastic comments and just post the facts and your opinions in a post.
21st.....
Not trying to run anyone off the forum....but asking questions and getting something other than a straight forward answer does not help the matter. As anyone who has seen the Dragon knows...at some point combat degenerates into a gunfight at close quarters. It does pay to have lots of ammo, guns, and help when that happens.
Every helicopter in our inventory has a pair or more door guns with gunners whose job is throw hate and discontent back at the bad guys. The Osprey has a ramp gun....and now perhaps a belly mounted gun that is operated by remote control using a souped up X-Box and a video monitor.
When I opined that seemed a very poor alternate to the conventional way of door gunning....I was informed by at least two different sources that "tactics" and "procedures" negated the need for guns at all.
Just because I feel that position is a bit optimistic....does not mean I lack respect for those telling me that....but I do question the corporate mentality that would find that to be an appropriate view.
I equated thinking that to "whistling in the dark"....meaning I see it as ignoring reality that there shall be times "tactics and procedures" will fail to safeguard the aircraft and thus the crews.
We should at be honest with ourselves....as much as it scares us to do so....to admit there is some grave risk taking going on when making such assumptions that we can outsmart our enemies all of the time by use of our tactics and procedures.
Harken back to Somalia and the slight hiccup that occurred there when we used those "tactics and procedures" one too many times, did so in the daylight, and were not prepared for the results. A lot of very brave men were wounded and killed as the direct result of that failure by commanders.
The question is what happens when the tactics and procedures go egg shape and the bad guys start popping caps on yer butt and you have nothing but a ramp gun and some sidearms to fight back with?
Not trying to run anyone off the forum....but asking questions and getting something other than a straight forward answer does not help the matter. As anyone who has seen the Dragon knows...at some point combat degenerates into a gunfight at close quarters. It does pay to have lots of ammo, guns, and help when that happens.
Every helicopter in our inventory has a pair or more door guns with gunners whose job is throw hate and discontent back at the bad guys. The Osprey has a ramp gun....and now perhaps a belly mounted gun that is operated by remote control using a souped up X-Box and a video monitor.
When I opined that seemed a very poor alternate to the conventional way of door gunning....I was informed by at least two different sources that "tactics" and "procedures" negated the need for guns at all.
Just because I feel that position is a bit optimistic....does not mean I lack respect for those telling me that....but I do question the corporate mentality that would find that to be an appropriate view.
I equated thinking that to "whistling in the dark"....meaning I see it as ignoring reality that there shall be times "tactics and procedures" will fail to safeguard the aircraft and thus the crews.
We should at be honest with ourselves....as much as it scares us to do so....to admit there is some grave risk taking going on when making such assumptions that we can outsmart our enemies all of the time by use of our tactics and procedures.
Harken back to Somalia and the slight hiccup that occurred there when we used those "tactics and procedures" one too many times, did so in the daylight, and were not prepared for the results. A lot of very brave men were wounded and killed as the direct result of that failure by commanders.
The question is what happens when the tactics and procedures go egg shape and the bad guys start popping caps on yer butt and you have nothing but a ramp gun and some sidearms to fight back with?
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Originally Posted by FH1100
In a hover, the V-22 is just two helicopters flying in very close formation and connected by a stick. Deny *that*. If a "lucky" shot manages to take out one of the proprotors, and/or perhaps one of the critical gearboxes and compromises the drive to that rotor, umm, what will happen?
How much different to your description would be that of the Chinook? Yet there is much defence and postulation about how the Chook would be a better spend than the V22
It would behoove you to take a rational look at some of your posts, and compare them to the reasonable responses of mckpave. Who at least has experience of what he speaks when it comes to the V22, unlike yourself and some others here
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Chinook can be brought down as easily as Osprey, there's no point denying that. As a matter of fact, everything that have to stop before landing is risky in two way shooting range. But at least CH-47 can defend itself... yet still this and "tactics, techniques and procedures" fail.
June 28th 2005 - ringing a bell ? Would using Osprey in that mission instead of the Chinook saved those lives ? Well, sorry but I believe the outcome would be the same, and I personally would expect more from a newer machine.
June 28th 2005 - ringing a bell ? Would using Osprey in that mission instead of the Chinook saved those lives ? Well, sorry but I believe the outcome would be the same, and I personally would expect more from a newer machine.
First of all, Squeaks, Ned, and Lt. Fubar, I don't give a *** how many bazillions of hours the mighty mcpave has in the R-22 or V-22. Got that? It's not important or relevant.
What I see is the physical deficiency of the machine: those two widely-spaced, side-by-side rotors. Good targets, eh?
As Fubar says, anything that has to stop before it can land is vulnerable. Yes, even a Chinook can be brought down by hostile fire, no doubt about that and I'm not even saying it isn't possible.
What I'm saying is that the V-22 is *more* vulnerable because of its configuration...I contend even more vulnerable than a Chinook! Take out one of those proprotors and even the best pilot in the Air Force...even the God-like mcpave himself!...isn't going to be able to save it.
mcpave hints and alludes to certain "tactics, techniques and procedures." We can assume by that mysterious statement that the USAF will ensure that *all* threats will be neutralized before the Osprey comes in to safely deliver its payload.
Let's hope the bad guys go by that plan and don't figure out a way to get around it.
Oh, but they'd never do that. Right, SAS?
What I see is the physical deficiency of the machine: those two widely-spaced, side-by-side rotors. Good targets, eh?
As Fubar says, anything that has to stop before it can land is vulnerable. Yes, even a Chinook can be brought down by hostile fire, no doubt about that and I'm not even saying it isn't possible.
What I'm saying is that the V-22 is *more* vulnerable because of its configuration...I contend even more vulnerable than a Chinook! Take out one of those proprotors and even the best pilot in the Air Force...even the God-like mcpave himself!...isn't going to be able to save it.
mcpave hints and alludes to certain "tactics, techniques and procedures." We can assume by that mysterious statement that the USAF will ensure that *all* threats will be neutralized before the Osprey comes in to safely deliver its payload.
Let's hope the bad guys go by that plan and don't figure out a way to get around it.
Oh, but they'd never do that. Right, SAS?
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You've lost the plot Bob with posts like that. But hey each to his own.
Good luck with this thread McPave, you are wasting your time and if I was you I wouldnt even bother reading this one each more. Obviously FH1100 is on some sort of vendetta so no matter what you say he will know more because remember even if you have over 100,000 hours in the V22 its irrelevant.
Enjoy this thread everyone, seems like its turned into a witch hunt.
Cheers Sasless, see you on FB
Good luck with this thread McPave, you are wasting your time and if I was you I wouldnt even bother reading this one each more. Obviously FH1100 is on some sort of vendetta so no matter what you say he will know more because remember even if you have over 100,000 hours in the V22 its irrelevant.
Enjoy this thread everyone, seems like its turned into a witch hunt.
Cheers Sasless, see you on FB
Well, Neddy! You take some mighty fine pictures of helicopters, but please tell us all about your rotary-wing experience as a pilot, hmm? Tell us what makes YOU such an authority on the V-22...or what makes you think you know ANY more than I do with my...how much was that again?...11,000 hours of flight time.
I may not have ever flown a V-22. I may not ever get to fly a V-22! But I do know one thing: When the V-22 is in helicopter-mode, it is...(drumroll, please)...A HELICOPTER! Well, actually it is *two* helicopters flying in close formation (but not even overlapping blades like the '46 or '47 or two brave Kiowa pilots). So I think I know just a teensy little bit about how the V-22 will fly in the HELICOPTER mode.
Do you, Ned?
And while we're at it, what makes you think that mcpave knows ANYTHING about taking a V-22 into combat, other than what they've planned and trained for? mcpave blusters that he knows everything...that he's some big expert. But he's not. When it comes to flying the V-22 into actual combat, he's no more experienced than...well...than you, Ned.
No, I haven't lost the plot, Ned. People have been so blinded and bamboozled by the incredible V-22 that they think it's going to magically rewrite the rules of combat. Or aerodynamics. Or reality.
I may not have ever flown a V-22. I may not ever get to fly a V-22! But I do know one thing: When the V-22 is in helicopter-mode, it is...(drumroll, please)...A HELICOPTER! Well, actually it is *two* helicopters flying in close formation (but not even overlapping blades like the '46 or '47 or two brave Kiowa pilots). So I think I know just a teensy little bit about how the V-22 will fly in the HELICOPTER mode.
Do you, Ned?
And while we're at it, what makes you think that mcpave knows ANYTHING about taking a V-22 into combat, other than what they've planned and trained for? mcpave blusters that he knows everything...that he's some big expert. But he's not. When it comes to flying the V-22 into actual combat, he's no more experienced than...well...than you, Ned.
No, I haven't lost the plot, Ned. People have been so blinded and bamboozled by the incredible V-22 that they think it's going to magically rewrite the rules of combat. Or aerodynamics. Or reality.
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Your own worse enemy at times.
Most here in the helo community have worked with AF types around the world and perhaps like me still have some as friends. And so the following "secret' talk amongst the V22 folks is a perfect example of why Army & Marine helo jocks, officer & enlisted crew alike, chuckle under their breaths over some of the boisterous claims made here and afield about the V-22. As we all well know, the F-117 is a bomber and not a fighter but the designation of fighter was given them to 'soothe and placate' their pilots so as to 'UP' their morale and therefore 'lean into' some of those very hairy, nightime missions like we saw them perform over Bagdad. Anyway, it's rumored that Osprey folks actually feel that their aircrews deserve the title of "Fighter" more than the F-117 pilots do because the V-22 will actually have a gun capable of 'fighting off' airborne or ground resistance whereas the F-117 does not !!!! I gotta hand to these V-22 guys though, dare I say it but they actually DO have a better case for being called fighter pilots than the F-117 folks !! But ya know guys, it's silly, piddly things like this and your classifying of 'everything' connected to your aircraft that makes you-all look less than serious at times. All ya gotta do is look no further than to your own SAR crews who in RVN stood fast in a hover trading lead....for the truth. It isn't any wonder that charts such as the one below were created to reflect sillyness such as this and I bet the AF's newest fighter pilots will get to add to it also, whadya bet:
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Bob,
Never said I fly helicopters for a living and never promoted myself as such so thats not even something I need to defend. I got my PPL many years ago and let it lapse because I was busy on my magazines so I do have a slight idea about how helicopters operate and being around and in them allows me to learn more than the average person would. Congrats on your 11,000 hours flight time, what do you want, a medal or a chest to pin it on. I know people with many more hours than that, but so what.
And never said I was an authority on the V22, MV22 or CV22, check all my posts and you will find that I have never said I knew more than anyone else on the subject. I have however sat down and interviewed many of those who have flown it, both in the United States and outside the United States, and yes the CV22 has been outside of the USA already.
What amazes me is I never said I was an expert in any of the fields that you just attacked me on but you seem to have read it somehow into the post, but hey again each to his own. But hey if it makes you feel better bashing me and also McPave on his qualifications etc then feel free to go for it.
All I am saying is do some research on the facts before making comments such as there wouldnt be any USAF in combat zones because there are no golf courses there. For christs sake the USAF has CSAR and Special Ops helos operating in all the major theatres so why do those men and women a disservice by making comments like that.
Anyway you do what you want, and you will. Good luck on your V22 vendetta. Do I think its the be all and end all of the helo/fixed wing community, nope I dont, but I dont get out here and bash the crap out of it every post. There are plenty of others that will do that. I just appreciate the technology it does bring to the warfighter.
Enjoy your day.
Ned (55hrs of helo time and proud of it.)
Never said I fly helicopters for a living and never promoted myself as such so thats not even something I need to defend. I got my PPL many years ago and let it lapse because I was busy on my magazines so I do have a slight idea about how helicopters operate and being around and in them allows me to learn more than the average person would. Congrats on your 11,000 hours flight time, what do you want, a medal or a chest to pin it on. I know people with many more hours than that, but so what.
And never said I was an authority on the V22, MV22 or CV22, check all my posts and you will find that I have never said I knew more than anyone else on the subject. I have however sat down and interviewed many of those who have flown it, both in the United States and outside the United States, and yes the CV22 has been outside of the USA already.
What amazes me is I never said I was an expert in any of the fields that you just attacked me on but you seem to have read it somehow into the post, but hey again each to his own. But hey if it makes you feel better bashing me and also McPave on his qualifications etc then feel free to go for it.
All I am saying is do some research on the facts before making comments such as there wouldnt be any USAF in combat zones because there are no golf courses there. For christs sake the USAF has CSAR and Special Ops helos operating in all the major theatres so why do those men and women a disservice by making comments like that.
Anyway you do what you want, and you will. Good luck on your V22 vendetta. Do I think its the be all and end all of the helo/fixed wing community, nope I dont, but I dont get out here and bash the crap out of it every post. There are plenty of others that will do that. I just appreciate the technology it does bring to the warfighter.
Enjoy your day.
Ned (55hrs of helo time and proud of it.)
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All is well
My two cents:
Ned I've flown with you and you've taken great pics of machines over the
years. Thanks for capturing such great images.
I will tell that, over here, speed range and payload are what it is all about.
The rules of war have not changed since the first pissed off homonid smacked another one on the head with a stick.
You could make a VTOL M1 flying tank/helicopter hybrid and eventually someone would figure out a way to kill it.
As I make my runs (usually whistling, it makes me feel better) in my unarmored, unarmed, "please shoot me" color scheme helo, I would gladly trade for a V22 any day.
The truth is anyone can die here at any second, in any flight profile and the Taliban don't care if you have 300 or 10,000 hours.
I would also say that as I watched a flight of V22's land the other day followed by a Predator on short final, I thought to myself, "Has the future arrived?" It may not be the perfect solution but it is certainly progress.
Mckpave give 'em hell in the valley for me.
Cheers
Ned I've flown with you and you've taken great pics of machines over the
years. Thanks for capturing such great images.
I will tell that, over here, speed range and payload are what it is all about.
The rules of war have not changed since the first pissed off homonid smacked another one on the head with a stick.
You could make a VTOL M1 flying tank/helicopter hybrid and eventually someone would figure out a way to kill it.
As I make my runs (usually whistling, it makes me feel better) in my unarmored, unarmed, "please shoot me" color scheme helo, I would gladly trade for a V22 any day.
The truth is anyone can die here at any second, in any flight profile and the Taliban don't care if you have 300 or 10,000 hours.
I would also say that as I watched a flight of V22's land the other day followed by a Predator on short final, I thought to myself, "Has the future arrived?" It may not be the perfect solution but it is certainly progress.
Mckpave give 'em hell in the valley for me.
Cheers
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Dan Reno says:
Dan,
The 'secret' talk you refer to has nothing to do with Air Force versus Army/Marines as you have made it out to be. The difference is that the guys working in Special Operations regardless of whether they come from the AF, Army, Marines/Navy are forced by the government to be held to a higher standard of OPSEC accountability due to the nature of their mission profiles. They have no choice but to maintain a much higher degree of security than the 'regular forces.'
It is obvious that you have not worked on the other side of the fence (although I'm 'sure' you have many friends who do/have). Additional binding contracts for those working in special job categories have to be signed by those given higher clearances that have requirements and strict legal consequences that are over and above those agreed to by service members not involved in Spec Ops. They include mandatory agreements to be held liable for 'treason against the United States' for ANY information released that is of a classified nature even if it has been circulated in the public domain. They can neither 'confirm nor deny' because with their proprietary knowledge doing so turns rumor into 'official' information.
Those who make claims of having to hold back information are NOT being 'boisterous,' they are doing what the United States government requires them to do. This holds true for All the Services.
Most here in the helo community have worked with AF types around the world and perhaps like me still have some as friends. And so the following "secret' talk amongst the V22 folks is a perfect example of why Army & Marine helo jocks, officer & enlisted crew alike, chuckle under their breaths over some of the boisterous claims made here and afield about the V-22.
The 'secret' talk you refer to has nothing to do with Air Force versus Army/Marines as you have made it out to be. The difference is that the guys working in Special Operations regardless of whether they come from the AF, Army, Marines/Navy are forced by the government to be held to a higher standard of OPSEC accountability due to the nature of their mission profiles. They have no choice but to maintain a much higher degree of security than the 'regular forces.'
It is obvious that you have not worked on the other side of the fence (although I'm 'sure' you have many friends who do/have). Additional binding contracts for those working in special job categories have to be signed by those given higher clearances that have requirements and strict legal consequences that are over and above those agreed to by service members not involved in Spec Ops. They include mandatory agreements to be held liable for 'treason against the United States' for ANY information released that is of a classified nature even if it has been circulated in the public domain. They can neither 'confirm nor deny' because with their proprietary knowledge doing so turns rumor into 'official' information.
Those who make claims of having to hold back information are NOT being 'boisterous,' they are doing what the United States government requires them to do. This holds true for All the Services.
Robert,
Enough already!
Ned never claimed anything beyond being a photographer....and probably the best there is in my estimation.
He said he knew McPave and that he was a very experienced V-22 Pilot and had lots of experience in Sikorsky Helicopters as well.
Any rotor equipped aircraft....V-22 and Helicopter....are all dead ducks if the bad guys take out any one of the rotors on them.
McPave is limited on what he can say. His posts may lack details but they are not in way seen as being boastful.
If you separate your satirical comments about the Air Farce (which all other services make) from the critical comments you wish to make about the V-22 and its operators then others would be able to see when you are being satirical and when you are being crass.
At least they now have an aircraft they can land near their Officers Club which is the first thing they usually build....before the runway....but that is progress!
You have some valid points.....stick to them, make your jokes carefully, and ease up a bit otherwise.
You did leave out the "Battle of Gedunk" campaign ribbon however.
Enough already!
Ned never claimed anything beyond being a photographer....and probably the best there is in my estimation.
He said he knew McPave and that he was a very experienced V-22 Pilot and had lots of experience in Sikorsky Helicopters as well.
Any rotor equipped aircraft....V-22 and Helicopter....are all dead ducks if the bad guys take out any one of the rotors on them.
McPave is limited on what he can say. His posts may lack details but they are not in way seen as being boastful.
If you separate your satirical comments about the Air Farce (which all other services make) from the critical comments you wish to make about the V-22 and its operators then others would be able to see when you are being satirical and when you are being crass.
At least they now have an aircraft they can land near their Officers Club which is the first thing they usually build....before the runway....but that is progress!
You have some valid points.....stick to them, make your jokes carefully, and ease up a bit otherwise.
You did leave out the "Battle of Gedunk" campaign ribbon however.
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Sas,
Oops, you may have had a couple of those rum drinks before your previous post.
When you cautioned Robert (Bob/FH1100 Pilot) that it was 'Enough already!' on his unfounded attacks against Ned, Mckpave, and helo vs. tiltrotor vulnerabiliaty, you also included several items that were actually posted by Dan and not Bob (boastfulness not true, satirical commments about the AF, missing Gedunk ribbon).
Anyway, poor Bob is doing the best he can. But of course he has been the most effective person on this thread for converting undecided readers to move to the 'pro-tiltrotor side'!
Oops, you may have had a couple of those rum drinks before your previous post.
When you cautioned Robert (Bob/FH1100 Pilot) that it was 'Enough already!' on his unfounded attacks against Ned, Mckpave, and helo vs. tiltrotor vulnerabiliaty, you also included several items that were actually posted by Dan and not Bob (boastfulness not true, satirical commments about the AF, missing Gedunk ribbon).
Anyway, poor Bob is doing the best he can. But of course he has been the most effective person on this thread for converting undecided readers to move to the 'pro-tiltrotor side'!
My apologies to anyone falsely maligned....perhaps the truth is I am just going blind and senile....or was in an altered state...that being sober!
I do recall we considered a visit to an Air Force Base to be an in-country R & R as we enjoyed the Pizza, Hamburgers, Clubs, Baths (both kinds) and ice cream....heaven forbid I should mention the Air Con, massage parlors, and shopping!
The down side was explaining to Air Force Security Police side arms, rifles, grenade launchers, and machine guns were standard uniform items for us who lived and worked in some rather tough neighborhoods.
I do recall we considered a visit to an Air Force Base to be an in-country R & R as we enjoyed the Pizza, Hamburgers, Clubs, Baths (both kinds) and ice cream....heaven forbid I should mention the Air Con, massage parlors, and shopping!
The down side was explaining to Air Force Security Police side arms, rifles, grenade launchers, and machine guns were standard uniform items for us who lived and worked in some rather tough neighborhoods.
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21stCentury
The secret talk was about AF V-22 guys rating the Fighter Pilot moniker more than the F-117 guys.
Boisterous was related to all the things the AF says the V-22 is capable of doing as an airframe and NOT their tactics used to prosecute their missions. Most people could care less how or what you do to do what you do..GET-IT?!
Anyone listening to you folks would think there's a spy hiding behing each shadow. It's no wonder you guys are so paranoid! Having to fly an accident about to happen and worrying about shadows. No wonder you get that X-Tra pay huh!
The secret talk was about AF V-22 guys rating the Fighter Pilot moniker more than the F-117 guys.
Boisterous was related to all the things the AF says the V-22 is capable of doing as an airframe and NOT their tactics used to prosecute their missions. Most people could care less how or what you do to do what you do..GET-IT?!
Anyone listening to you folks would think there's a spy hiding behing each shadow. It's no wonder you guys are so paranoid! Having to fly an accident about to happen and worrying about shadows. No wonder you get that X-Tra pay huh!
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Dan,
Please calm down. There is no reason to get upset. Your 'new interpretative version' of statements you made earlier do not match the original post you made, but I'm sure that in your mind you believe them.
Don't worry Dan, there is not 'a spy hiding behind each shadow.' But there are additional signed agreements required of any U.S. military member with access to classified information above the 'Secret' level, particularly those who are involved in activities that are required to engage in covert activities that you and I will never hear about.
Funny that YOU should mention "paranoid." No offense, but are you related to Bob? (sorry, certain similarities...)
Please calm down. There is no reason to get upset. Your 'new interpretative version' of statements you made earlier do not match the original post you made, but I'm sure that in your mind you believe them.
Don't worry Dan, there is not 'a spy hiding behind each shadow.' But there are additional signed agreements required of any U.S. military member with access to classified information above the 'Secret' level, particularly those who are involved in activities that are required to engage in covert activities that you and I will never hear about.
Funny that YOU should mention "paranoid." No offense, but are you related to Bob? (sorry, certain similarities...)
Signed statements of Non-Disclosure.....that is a fact but "Top Secret" is way down the list from information that really demands care but then that kind of information is very compartmentalized to prevent a leak causing grave damage.
Also...anything that is visible to the public, found in the public domain by legal means, cannot be classified.
I have flown aircraft with classified equipment to non-secure locations but the exterior of the aircraft alone was not considered "classified". The fact we had a downlink antenna hung on the skid....identified we had the ability to downlink information but that in itself was not classified. The information we downlinked was not encrypted thus it could be interecepted easily....although one would think we would have liked to have it done in a secure manner....but DOE could not think that far out of their cozy little box. If asked....I could talk about the downlinking capability and even mention it was the FLIR camera that provided the information being downlinked. Seemed silly to me....as then one only had to surmise what capability the FLIR had (easily gleaned from the manufactuer's web site) and our use of the equipment had been "compromised". But that in itself, was not a compromise of security rules. If we had removed the FLIR and Downlink antenna prior to going off site....then talked about the systems...although not classified in themselves....the discussion of capabilities not visible on the aircraft would have been an OpSec violation.
We could talk about the door mounted machine gun...but not how much ammo we carrried or how we used it....but it was in clear view to anyone that could see the aircraft.
I could not take photos of the aircraft at the heliport....but I could at most locations on site if outside any fenced facility.
There are some very silly rules that oft times defy logic. My FAR Part 135 Training Records were considered "Classified Documents"....of all things! Mind you there were other training documents that pertained to non-Part 135 training that was mission oriented that rightfully could be considered sensitive.
One can discuss most issues without getting into any detail that would constitute a breach of security or a violation of Operational Security....and should be careful to avoid such breaches. In the days of the SR-71....watching one takeoff over one's head did not mean you could not look up and watch it. Likewise....taking a photograph would not have been improper unless you were in an area posted as being off limits to cameras or photography being forbidden.
Also...anything that is visible to the public, found in the public domain by legal means, cannot be classified.
I have flown aircraft with classified equipment to non-secure locations but the exterior of the aircraft alone was not considered "classified". The fact we had a downlink antenna hung on the skid....identified we had the ability to downlink information but that in itself was not classified. The information we downlinked was not encrypted thus it could be interecepted easily....although one would think we would have liked to have it done in a secure manner....but DOE could not think that far out of their cozy little box. If asked....I could talk about the downlinking capability and even mention it was the FLIR camera that provided the information being downlinked. Seemed silly to me....as then one only had to surmise what capability the FLIR had (easily gleaned from the manufactuer's web site) and our use of the equipment had been "compromised". But that in itself, was not a compromise of security rules. If we had removed the FLIR and Downlink antenna prior to going off site....then talked about the systems...although not classified in themselves....the discussion of capabilities not visible on the aircraft would have been an OpSec violation.
We could talk about the door mounted machine gun...but not how much ammo we carrried or how we used it....but it was in clear view to anyone that could see the aircraft.
I could not take photos of the aircraft at the heliport....but I could at most locations on site if outside any fenced facility.
There are some very silly rules that oft times defy logic. My FAR Part 135 Training Records were considered "Classified Documents"....of all things! Mind you there were other training documents that pertained to non-Part 135 training that was mission oriented that rightfully could be considered sensitive.
One can discuss most issues without getting into any detail that would constitute a breach of security or a violation of Operational Security....and should be careful to avoid such breaches. In the days of the SR-71....watching one takeoff over one's head did not mean you could not look up and watch it. Likewise....taking a photograph would not have been improper unless you were in an area posted as being off limits to cameras or photography being forbidden.
Join Date: Apr 2008
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Sasless,
You are correct, the level of security increase dramatically when you get into TS/SCI (Sensitive Compartmented Information) where even the codewords used to describe the program can be classified (i.e, if you mention the name in public you risk jail time)!!
While it is true that information in the public domain cannot be classified after the fact, you have to be careful when previously classified information is leaked to the public domain through the press, publications, or even an open forum like this. If someone with clearance and access to that information confirms it in public, they can be charged with violating security restrictions.
Anyway, I think we are getting a bit 'off thread' here!!
You are correct, the level of security increase dramatically when you get into TS/SCI (Sensitive Compartmented Information) where even the codewords used to describe the program can be classified (i.e, if you mention the name in public you risk jail time)!!
While it is true that information in the public domain cannot be classified after the fact, you have to be careful when previously classified information is leaked to the public domain through the press, publications, or even an open forum like this. If someone with clearance and access to that information confirms it in public, they can be charged with violating security restrictions.
Anyway, I think we are getting a bit 'off thread' here!!