What's the latest news of the V22 Osprey?
Let me shed a bit more light here.
1. The turret under the belly actually is for targeting the gun.
2. The 7.62 option is not a minigun but an M240.
3. Let's just say the belly gun is thankfully not the final option, can't really discuss details but I'm not a fan.
4. There are other options out there for much better fire support.
1. The turret under the belly actually is for targeting the gun.
2. The 7.62 option is not a minigun but an M240.
3. Let's just say the belly gun is thankfully not the final option, can't really discuss details but I'm not a fan.
4. There are other options out there for much better fire support.
One M-240 7.62mm single barreled....rat a tat a tat a tat a tat....machine gun spitting out perhaps 800 rounds per minute.....ah mine dear that is just AWESOME!
Crapsakes....three M-60's on the Chinook were a darn joke!
How many directions can the remote controlled whiz bang look in one time?
What options are out there that are handy, available, and on-scene/on site instantly? Are you referrring to armed aircraft flying very close support for the Osprey McPave?
Crapsakes....three M-60's on the Chinook were a darn joke!
How many directions can the remote controlled whiz bang look in one time?
What options are out there that are handy, available, and on-scene/on site instantly? Are you referrring to armed aircraft flying very close support for the Osprey McPave?
What options are out there that are handy, available, and on-scene/on site instantly? Are you referrring to armed aircraft flying very close support for the Osprey McPave?
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Ospreys in Afghanistan will be armed with a 7.62mm belly-mounted turret gun, known as the Interim Defense Weapon System, capable of shooting 360 degrees around the aircraft.
To operate the weapon, a Marine gunner will use a controller, similar to one used to play a video game. He’ll acquire targets using a monitor that is fed color images from a ""forward-looking""[?] infrared sensor mounted beneath the aircraft.
FH1100 Pilot said:
In the book I'm writing on the V-22, this belly gun fiasco will probably have its own chapter!
In the book I'm writing on the V-22, this belly gun fiasco will probably have its own chapter!
I wonder what device is in play to stop the gunner accidentally shooting the prop-rotors off as they tilt for transition from fwd flight to hover (and hover to forward flight) and bank and pitch.
Any bet that there’ll be a loss in the future because there’s no interlocking mechanism to prevent it? (apart from the gunner’s eyesight and alertness).
McPave,
How many technical papers have been written and published that discuss such matters....guess I will have to do a google search or hit up some of the military web sites....perhaps download the Manuals such as the Army FM series that pertain.
I suppose it would come as a rude shock and surprise to everyone if we mentioned Spectre, Warthog, Jet Powered Lawn Darts, and even the Marine equivalents of Cobra, Harrier, Hornet.
The question is not the resources/assets but availability and response time required to counter the hostile fire. Fast movers don't meet that requirement. The Warthog could if it were in exactly the right position....and the Cobra/Apache could if flying on the wing....but we know that is a matter of timing as they cannot keep up the speedy Osprey.
Reckon the door mounted mini-gun on the old fashioned Sikorsky comes close to being the right answer to the question?
How many technical papers have been written and published that discuss such matters....guess I will have to do a google search or hit up some of the military web sites....perhaps download the Manuals such as the Army FM series that pertain.
I suppose it would come as a rude shock and surprise to everyone if we mentioned Spectre, Warthog, Jet Powered Lawn Darts, and even the Marine equivalents of Cobra, Harrier, Hornet.
The question is not the resources/assets but availability and response time required to counter the hostile fire. Fast movers don't meet that requirement. The Warthog could if it were in exactly the right position....and the Cobra/Apache could if flying on the wing....but we know that is a matter of timing as they cannot keep up the speedy Osprey.
Reckon the door mounted mini-gun on the old fashioned Sikorsky comes close to being the right answer to the question?
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Belly turret
Mckpave, You said that the belly turret is used to target the gun. Is it also used for missile jamming? The designation "Guardian" is pretty well established as being the missile jam turret which looks very much like what's in the picture. If it is, it would bring up several concerns. 1) What happens on missile warning indication if the gun is in active use? 2) The IR sensor in the turret is very narrow field of view so that it can track incoming missiles at long range. Is the same camera appropriate for both uses? 3) The MTBF of this type of system has been worryingly low to date and it is very expensive. Perhaps Northrop just repurposed the turret and put in a different IR camera, but it seems odd that they wouldn't change the name. If it is perfectly suitable for both purposes simultaneously, they should add that to their marketing material.
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UNCTUOUS, mechanical and electrical stops were already used during WW2 on bombers preventing shooting own plane. And if I remember correctly either British or German were working on a system preventing shooting other bombers in formation as well. So no problem there as the system, even without mechanical stops, will have specified movement envelope, and either will not let a gun fire at certain angles, or won't allow to point the gun where the props are. The system is stabilized and have some neat features as IIR, magnification, ranging and ballistic computer, so accuracy wise, even in shaky environment the system will beat any door gunner any day.
But some problems are still there:
- no peripheral vision
- only one gun - only one side covered at the time
- mounted there won't work when on the ground
- weight (800pounds !?! You have to be joking)
In a nutshell, Osprey still need gunships protection in hostile environment. Either USAF AC-130 Spectre, Army Apache, or USMC Cobra will do, but both later are helicopters, those will slow Osprey down.
Jolly Green, wouldn't the Marines mount .50cal GAU-21 instead of classic M2 today ? Those shoot at 1000RPM, so will still need a lot of ammo... not to say slow-firing M2 didn't need a lot of lead in storage - the SeaWolves in SEA were hauling 2000 rounds for their .50cal on those small Bravo-Hueys, and still were able to run out of bullets, few times during single mission.
But some problems are still there:
- no peripheral vision
- only one gun - only one side covered at the time
- mounted there won't work when on the ground
- weight (800pounds !?! You have to be joking)
In a nutshell, Osprey still need gunships protection in hostile environment. Either USAF AC-130 Spectre, Army Apache, or USMC Cobra will do, but both later are helicopters, those will slow Osprey down.
Jolly Green, wouldn't the Marines mount .50cal GAU-21 instead of classic M2 today ? Those shoot at 1000RPM, so will still need a lot of ammo... not to say slow-firing M2 didn't need a lot of lead in storage - the SeaWolves in SEA were hauling 2000 rounds for their .50cal on those small Bravo-Hueys, and still were able to run out of bullets, few times during single mission.
Mckpave, You said that the belly turret is used to target the gun. Is it also used for missile jamming? The designation "Guardian" is pretty well established as being the missile jam turret which looks very much like what's in the picture. If it is, it would bring up several concerns. 1) What happens on missile warning indication if the gun is in active use? 2) The IR sensor in the turret is very narrow field of view so that it can track incoming missiles at long range. Is the same camera appropriate for both uses? 3) The MTBF of this type of system has been worryingly low to date and it is very expensive. Perhaps Northrop just repurposed the turret and put in a different IR camera, but it seems odd that they wouldn't change the name. If it is perfectly suitable for both purposes simultaneously, they should add that to their marketing material.
How many technical papers have been written and published that discuss such matters....guess I will have to do a google search or hit up some of the military web sites....perhaps download the Manuals such as the Army FM series that pertain.
I suppose it would come as a rude shock and surprise to everyone if we mentioned Spectre, Warthog, Jet Powered Lawn Darts, and even the Marine equivalents of Cobra, Harrier, Hornet.
The question is not the resources/assets but availability and response time required to counter the hostile fire. Fast movers don't meet that requirement. The Warthog could if it were in exactly the right position....and the Cobra/Apache could if flying on the wing....but we know that is a matter of timing as they cannot keep up the speedy Osprey.
I suppose it would come as a rude shock and surprise to everyone if we mentioned Spectre, Warthog, Jet Powered Lawn Darts, and even the Marine equivalents of Cobra, Harrier, Hornet.
The question is not the resources/assets but availability and response time required to counter the hostile fire. Fast movers don't meet that requirement. The Warthog could if it were in exactly the right position....and the Cobra/Apache could if flying on the wing....but we know that is a matter of timing as they cannot keep up the speedy Osprey.
Maybe, maybe not. It may be the case that tactics development is an on-going and dynamic community and it can take years for open-source documents to be published, if ever. I'm sure that was the same when you served as well.
I will not in anyway discuss tactical issues on this, or any public forum, maybe that's a "rude shock and surprise" to some on here but it's pretty plain and simple.
USAF Recce Motto...."Unarmed and Unafraid!"
Osprey Motto...."Poorly Armed and Whistling in the Dark!"
Osprey Motto...."Poorly Armed and Whistling in the Dark!"
USAF Recce Motto...."Unarmed and Unafraid!"
Osprey Motto...."Poorly Armed and Whistling in the Dark!"
Osprey Motto...."Poorly Armed and Whistling in the Dark!"
I guess it's the same ole' story from this board that once again, it's you armchair warfighters who know more than those of us in uniform.
I bow to your omniscience and post count.
Quite the contrary McPave....I stand strongly with anyone that wears the uniform and carries the fight to the enemy. Read back over the thread and you will find that proved without any doubt. You must have me confused with "Sultan"....he's the one that denigrates the Brave.
I refer to the old idea of whistling as you walk in the dark in hopes of warding off danger.
The very worst thing we can do is believe our own propaganda and ignore the fact that the bad guys sometimes have a good day too. It is when our "tactics" have to meet the test when the "plan" ends upon contact with the enemy. The problem is we rarely brief in the bad guys....and they have to improvise which sometimes leads to unpleasant surprises. When they do get briefed in....then they really wreck the apple cart at much cost to us.
We have been lectured that we know not of what we speak by the likes of Sultan and a few others....but I will suggest in the coming months there shall be a "Vietnam Flashback" that occurs to end users of the Osprey in Afghanistan. When that happens the Whistlers shall have a reminder of what happens when things go ugly. That is when the "Brave" have to stand up and deal with tactical failures and being in a nose to nose gunfight where the Bad Guys hold the upper hand. It happens in every war!
Besides....McPave....due to my seniority it is now a Rocking Chair....and not an Arm Chair.
I refer to the old idea of whistling as you walk in the dark in hopes of warding off danger.
The very worst thing we can do is believe our own propaganda and ignore the fact that the bad guys sometimes have a good day too. It is when our "tactics" have to meet the test when the "plan" ends upon contact with the enemy. The problem is we rarely brief in the bad guys....and they have to improvise which sometimes leads to unpleasant surprises. When they do get briefed in....then they really wreck the apple cart at much cost to us.
We have been lectured that we know not of what we speak by the likes of Sultan and a few others....but I will suggest in the coming months there shall be a "Vietnam Flashback" that occurs to end users of the Osprey in Afghanistan. When that happens the Whistlers shall have a reminder of what happens when things go ugly. That is when the "Brave" have to stand up and deal with tactical failures and being in a nose to nose gunfight where the Bad Guys hold the upper hand. It happens in every war!
Besides....McPave....due to my seniority it is now a Rocking Chair....and not an Arm Chair.
How would this have played with an Osprey?
A reminder why helicopters and Osprey's which are prone to be used as helicopters, need effective defensive armament.
Notice the comment about the recent addition of a second machinegun on the SeaKing.
Ministry of Defence | Defence News | Military Operations | Royal Navy Sea King crew battle with Taliban
Notice the comment about the recent addition of a second machinegun on the SeaKing.
Ministry of Defence | Defence News | Military Operations | Royal Navy Sea King crew battle with Taliban
Royal Navy Sea King crew battle with Taliban
A Military Operations news article
10 Dec 09
In the two years that the Royal Navy Sea Kings have been flying over Afghanistan the crews have taken their helicopters into treacherous environments and have often encountered stiff resistance from insurgents.
A Royal Navy Sea King assists troops on the ground in Afghanistan with a resupply mission
[Picture: Crown Copyright/MOD 2009]
In January 2009, Lieutenant Commander Gavin Simmonite and his crew were tasked to fly their Sea King with an underslung load of equipment for ground forces.
As Lt Cdr Simmonite was approaching the drop zone his Sea King was hit by sustained and accurate Taliban fire. Bullets pierced the fuselage and ricocheted in the cabin.
In the ensuing mêlée, Door Gunner Naval Airman Thomas Saunders returned fire and pinned down the Taliban attackers.
His quick reactions provided the vital seconds of respite needed for him and his fellow crew members to escape.
Naval Airman Thomas Saunders sits near his gun position in the Sea King Mk4
[Picture: Crown Copyright/MOD 2008]
Likewise, Lt Cdr Simmonite's airmanship and handling skills enabled him to get the aircraft out of the danger zone without loss of life.
His aircraft was so severely damaged by enemy fire that under normal circumstances it should have been landed immediately.
Whilst this would normally have been the end of the incident, when the damaged aircraft was inspected it was noted that the control cable for the tail rotor had been hit by a bullet, slicing all but one of the strands.
Once again, the aircrew were extremely fortunate as the cable was close to breaking, which would have had a catastrophic effect.
Lt Cdr Simmonite was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross for his exceptional airmanship and handling skills that enabled him to nurse the aircraft back to a safe location and in doing so saved the aircraft and his crew.
Naval Airman Saunders also received an award from the Commander Joint Helicopter Command.
On return to base the damage to the Sea King from the encounter with the Taliban was clear to see
[Picture: Crown Copyright/MOD 2009]
When informed of his award Lt Cdr Simmonite said:
Lieutenant Commander Gavin Simmonite
[Picture: Crown Copyright/MOD 2009]
On returning to the UK, Naval Airman Saunders, who volunteered to become an Air Door Gunner, also praised the skills and courage of the aircrew, adding:
A Military Operations news article
10 Dec 09
In the two years that the Royal Navy Sea Kings have been flying over Afghanistan the crews have taken their helicopters into treacherous environments and have often encountered stiff resistance from insurgents.
A Royal Navy Sea King assists troops on the ground in Afghanistan with a resupply mission [Picture: Crown Copyright/MOD 2009]
In January 2009, Lieutenant Commander Gavin Simmonite and his crew were tasked to fly their Sea King with an underslung load of equipment for ground forces.
As Lt Cdr Simmonite was approaching the drop zone his Sea King was hit by sustained and accurate Taliban fire. Bullets pierced the fuselage and ricocheted in the cabin.
In the ensuing mêlée, Door Gunner Naval Airman Thomas Saunders returned fire and pinned down the Taliban attackers.
His quick reactions provided the vital seconds of respite needed for him and his fellow crew members to escape.
Naval Airman Thomas Saunders sits near his gun position in the Sea King Mk4 [Picture: Crown Copyright/MOD 2008]
Likewise, Lt Cdr Simmonite's airmanship and handling skills enabled him to get the aircraft out of the danger zone without loss of life.
His aircraft was so severely damaged by enemy fire that under normal circumstances it should have been landed immediately.
Whilst this would normally have been the end of the incident, when the damaged aircraft was inspected it was noted that the control cable for the tail rotor had been hit by a bullet, slicing all but one of the strands.
Once again, the aircrew were extremely fortunate as the cable was close to breaking, which would have had a catastrophic effect.
Lt Cdr Simmonite was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross for his exceptional airmanship and handling skills that enabled him to nurse the aircraft back to a safe location and in doing so saved the aircraft and his crew.
Naval Airman Saunders also received an award from the Commander Joint Helicopter Command.
On return to base the damage to the Sea King from the encounter with the Taliban was clear to see [Picture: Crown Copyright/MOD 2009]
When informed of his award Lt Cdr Simmonite said:
"Flying in Afghanistan is an extremely challenging experience. As a naval force we would normally be flying at sea level from the decks of large ships.
"In Afghanistan it is a totally different environment; we have had to adapt to the high altitude, excessive heat and a desert sand that is as fine as talcum powder that permeates throughout the aircraft.
"The incident with the Taliban was very challenging, but I must mention the other members of my crew whose professionalism and skill contributed greatly to the safe and successful outcome of this event."
"In Afghanistan it is a totally different environment; we have had to adapt to the high altitude, excessive heat and a desert sand that is as fine as talcum powder that permeates throughout the aircraft.
"The incident with the Taliban was very challenging, but I must mention the other members of my crew whose professionalism and skill contributed greatly to the safe and successful outcome of this event."
Lieutenant Commander Gavin Simmonite[Picture: Crown Copyright/MOD 2009]
On returning to the UK, Naval Airman Saunders, who volunteered to become an Air Door Gunner, also praised the skills and courage of the aircrew, adding:
"The recent fitment of an additional gun to the port side of the aircraft was extremely fortuitous as we were extremely vulnerable to attack.
"The incident seemed to be over in minutes and my reactions to the attack were down to the excellent training provided by the squadron."
After two years of successful service in Afghanistan the Sea Kings and their crews are proving to be a valuable asset to British forces in the country and look set to be deployed on many more vital sorties before they return home.
"The incident seemed to be over in minutes and my reactions to the attack were down to the excellent training provided by the squadron."
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Haven't you heard SASless ? "Faster, Higher, Longer" means never having to get into those type of predicaments in the first place ! Zoom down from way up high and get the job done with superior speed and then zoom up high at superior speed ! Every hot LZ is a cakewalk for the Osprey !
You're right Danny and Sassy, there's absolutely no way we could figure all this defensive fire stuff out, we're such idiots!!
"You're smart, we're stupid" How's that? Make you guys feel better now?
"You're smart, we're stupid" How's that? Make you guys feel better now?
Tender corns have you there McPave? Seems we are stepping on them for you!
Are you trying to tell us there is no chance of an Osprey getting hosed down by the bad guys in an LZ.....ever?
Are you trying to tell us there is no chance of an Osprey getting hosed down by the bad guys in an LZ.....ever?
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Are you trying to tell us there is no chance of an Osprey getting hosed down by the bad guys in an LZ.....ever?
He has already described that he is not completely happy with the current armament systems, but has mentioned that there are mods and better alternatives that are being considered. And of course anyone who has been in the military understands that he would not be able to discuss those for obvious reasons...
As mckpave is the only person on this thread with first-hand operational experience with the Osprey, perhaps a better approach to receive responsive and relevant answers would be to ask non-confrontational questions that he would be able to answer considering the security restraints placed on him.
In other words, it is better to discuss the facts that can be discussed in an open forum rather than 'step on tender corns.' After all, I'm sure that you are looking for the truth, and not simply trying to chase the people who have the answers off this forum.
Last edited by 21stCen; 12th Dec 2009 at 17:40.
As mckpave is the only person on this thread with first-hand operational experience with the Osprey...
And that's what we're concerned about...well, "some" of us are, anyway. And it's what..."others"...seem distressingly cavalier and/or unconcerned about.
If you shoot down a helicopter, it has a reasonable chance of landing with the cabin intact, or at least in a survivable manner. Just look at that other PPRUNE thread with the '53 that pranged itself in from a high hover.
But the V-22 is simply too vulnerable. Nevermind its own (albeit arguably) inherent aerodynamic flaws, there are too many ways for the bad guys to do things that would/will cause the Osprey to roll over onto its back before hitting the ground.
You put a V-22 into real combat, it's gonna be ugly.
The book is not yet written on the effectiveness of the V-22 out in the real world. Well, it's being written. The final chapters will probably be finished soon.
But the V-22 is simply too vulnerable. Nevermind its own (albeit arguably) inherent aerodynamic flaws, there are too many ways for the bad guys to do things that would/will cause the Osprey to roll over onto its back before hitting the ground
WRONG!!!!!! You are completely and utterly incapable of making a statement like that. What training or experience do you have in survivability and vulnerability disciplines?? What training or experience do you have in our tactics, techniques, or procedures??? What makes you so much more knowledgeable about these topics than those who are working on this program on a day-to-day basis??
Oh, that's right, I forgot..........it's your post count.
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McPave - Good to see you still here 
Maybe get some of the other boys in the squadron to come and post on pprune and even up the odds a bit. Maybe the certain person who gave us our briefings there and was our pilot on the flight, he would be a good one to pour some oil on various comments here as well.
Just warn the boys of the vast amounts of experience here on the forum so they can come prepared
Oh Hey I have more posts than him, does that mean I know more about the V22 than FH1100
Maybe get some of the other boys in the squadron to come and post on pprune and even up the odds a bit. Maybe the certain person who gave us our briefings there and was our pilot on the flight, he would be a good one to pour some oil on various comments here as well.
Just warn the boys of the vast amounts of experience here on the forum so they can come prepared
Oh Hey I have more posts than him, does that mean I know more about the V22 than FH1100