Slingloading & Longlining
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,051
Likes: 0
From: CA
Paco,
407's idea is a good one but make sure you can "tune" the fin. I have seen the seeding buckets with the fin get a serious weave going with a rigidly mounted fin. A couple of bolts in either end so you can move and reset the fin should solve that issue.
407's idea is a good one but make sure you can "tune" the fin. I have seen the seeding buckets with the fin get a serious weave going with a rigidly mounted fin. A couple of bolts in either end so you can move and reset the fin should solve that issue.
Iconoclast
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,132
Likes: 0
From: The home of Dudley Dooright-Where the lead dog is the only one that gets a change of scenery.
Another stupid idea from the archives of my brain.
Put a tail rotor on it. Sounds stupid but it has been done. In the construction of a modular building they used heavy lift helicopters. In order to stabilize the modular loads and keep them from rotating they had an electrical or engine powered tail rotor. It worked quite well.
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,330
Likes: 74
From: White Waltham, Prestwick & Calgary
You could talk to Joe Cadham at ProIFR in Boundary Bay (near Vancouver).
You could also talk to the grumpy Old men at remote Helicopters in Slave Lake (780 849 2222), or almost any company.
Phil
You could also talk to the grumpy Old men at remote Helicopters in Slave Lake (780 849 2222), or almost any company.
Phil
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 564
Likes: 0
From: Chilliwack, BC Canada
There are several good schools that could give you the training in Canada.....
BC Helicopters at Abbotsford.
Chinook Helicopters in Abbotsford.
VIH Helicopters in Victoria.
Canadian Helicopters In Penticton.
All should have a Web presence, try a Google search.
BC Helicopters at Abbotsford.
Chinook Helicopters in Abbotsford.
VIH Helicopters in Victoria.
Canadian Helicopters In Penticton.
All should have a Web presence, try a Google search.
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 322
Likes: 0
From: Canada
All great options listed above by 407Driver.
http://www.bchelicopters.com/
http://www.chinookhelicopters.com/
http://www.vih.com/
http://www.canadianhelicopters.com/penticton_1.html
RH
Joe Cadham? Is he out of jail yet?
http://www.bchelicopters.com/
http://www.chinookhelicopters.com/
http://www.vih.com/
http://www.canadianhelicopters.com/penticton_1.html
RH
Joe Cadham? Is he out of jail yet?
Last edited by Canadian Rotorhead; 28th May 2004 at 13:22.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 564
Likes: 0
From: Chilliwack, BC Canada
Joe actually did a bit of my Initial training on 47's. He was an excellent Instructor, his specialty was the "Night - Low-level - International Border crossing with large black garbage bags of product" part of the CPL course 
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
From: Aberdeen,UK
Uncommanded load jettison
I've had this happen to me twice in 2 consecutive days in an AS350. First time I'd taken the strain on the load and the lift gear dropped from the belly hook, on landing the hook was closed.We then switched hooks from another aircraft.Second day I was on approach with the load and the same thing happened everything let go from the belly hook, the hook on landing was open.
Both times the electric jettison was armed.And before you ask, it was not finger trouble!
Hooks have both been checked over thoroughly twice ,no faults found.The Aircraft has been checked over by 2 engineers and both the manual and electrics have shown no faults.The manual cable was not too tight or snagging anywhere.The electrical looms are clean the relay operates normally the pcb shows nothing unusual and the switch is clean and operating normally.
The aircraft has been flight tested since with a load with numerous pick ups and and landings in all configerations (crosswind, tailwind, harsh pickups trying to create as much vibration as possible) and has shown no faults.
I've 2500 hours of lifting experience in these aircraft and have never seen this problem.
Any input or advice would be most welcome.
Both times the electric jettison was armed.And before you ask, it was not finger trouble!
Hooks have both been checked over thoroughly twice ,no faults found.The Aircraft has been checked over by 2 engineers and both the manual and electrics have shown no faults.The manual cable was not too tight or snagging anywhere.The electrical looms are clean the relay operates normally the pcb shows nothing unusual and the switch is clean and operating normally.
The aircraft has been flight tested since with a load with numerous pick ups and and landings in all configerations (crosswind, tailwind, harsh pickups trying to create as much vibration as possible) and has shown no faults.
I've 2500 hours of lifting experience in these aircraft and have never seen this problem.
Any input or advice would be most welcome.
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 813
Likes: 2
From: the hills of halton
Was it Breeze or Siren hook ?
also see.
http://www.oas.gov/dts/tsdocs/tb04-03.pdf
http://www.casa.gov.au/avreg/aircraf...p/SUPP-018.pdf
There was a problem with one operator in Canada , not sure what the end solution was.
also see.
http://www.oas.gov/dts/tsdocs/tb04-03.pdf
http://www.casa.gov.au/avreg/aircraf...p/SUPP-018.pdf
There was a problem with one operator in Canada , not sure what the end solution was.
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 195
Likes: 0
From: UK
Hard Luck - I've dropped two loads inadvertently in my time.
One was a welded contact in the release electrics.
The other was finger trouble (trying to get rid of a twitching autostab with the load release button uncovered)
Was there any stray RadHaz in the area where this happened? High intensity transmissions etc?
I know there are unmarked areas in UK where electrics do strange things.
One was a welded contact in the release electrics.
The other was finger trouble (trying to get rid of a twitching autostab with the load release button uncovered)
Was there any stray RadHaz in the area where this happened? High intensity transmissions etc?
I know there are unmarked areas in UK where electrics do strange things.
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,835
Likes: 3
From: Philadelphia PA
Other things that might cause it are:
static electricity build up that inadvertantly triggers the relay. (not sure of a solution for this)
load having too large an eye for the hook, allowing it to swivel around as it bounces and then slide through the back of the keeper. (make sure the load has a fairly small eye that just fits over the hook without too much slack).
static electricity build up that inadvertantly triggers the relay. (not sure of a solution for this)
load having too large an eye for the hook, allowing it to swivel around as it bounces and then slide through the back of the keeper. (make sure the load has a fairly small eye that just fits over the hook without too much slack).
Iconoclast
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,132
Likes: 0
From: The home of Dudley Dooright-Where the lead dog is the only one that gets a change of scenery.
History repeats itself.
I had a friend that dumped a 105MM howitzer from an H-34 and several days later he dumped the Generals Jeep from about 1000 feet. The problem was traced to a small Nylon ® pin that was employed as a striker on a Micro Switch ®. This striker wore and eventually kept the low weight micro switch in the closed position. This armed the low weight micro switch so that when the pilot armed the hook it appeared that the weight was off the hook and it opened.
Static electricity was mentioned, as was high voltage radiation as a possible cause. If solenoids are employed in the hook circuits or a solenoid was operated while the hook was armed this could be a problem. When a solenoid is de energized and it is not protected it can generate a back electromotive force as high as 1400 volts. This high voltage can radiate and be picked up on the circuit for another solenoid and cause it to operate. This EMF can also effect other circuitry. The back EMF can cause switches to weld shut or to severely increase the resistance on switch points causing a sneak circuit or no circuit at all.
Edited to remove a zero.
Static electricity was mentioned, as was high voltage radiation as a possible cause. If solenoids are employed in the hook circuits or a solenoid was operated while the hook was armed this could be a problem. When a solenoid is de energized and it is not protected it can generate a back electromotive force as high as 1400 volts. This high voltage can radiate and be picked up on the circuit for another solenoid and cause it to operate. This EMF can also effect other circuitry. The back EMF can cause switches to weld shut or to severely increase the resistance on switch points causing a sneak circuit or no circuit at all.
Edited to remove a zero.
Last edited by Lu Zuckerman; 5th October 2004 at 23:19.
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,084
Likes: 1
From: the cockpit
static is fairly rare on certified helicopter hooks, but not unheard of. What was the environment like - does it lead you to think of static buildup?
The fact that it happened on two different hooks is intresting. Do you have more information on the second release, ie timing, load position, etc?
As Shawn said - have you considered dynamic rollout? Seems to be a prime contender for this one.
The fact that it happened on two different hooks is intresting. Do you have more information on the second release, ie timing, load position, etc?
As Shawn said - have you considered dynamic rollout? Seems to be a prime contender for this one.
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
From: Aberdeen,UK
Sorry guys I've been away but many thanks for the feedback.
Widgeon - it is a Breeze Hook and thanks for the links, I'm double checking with engineering that we do all that is suggested following the US safecoms.(I'm 99% sure we do).
MBJ - No Radhaz around the 2 different locations 100nm apart.
Shawn - Static wasn't a problem, no rain, hail, snow,lightening,dust or low cloud. Having said that I've flown in all of these weather conditions before in the same aircraft in exactly the same configeration around pylons and mobile phone masts and have never ever had a problem.On my test flights afterwards I had all the lights on as usual and also transmitted on the marineband and airband comms with no adverse effect. The hook /eye problem, yes I'm aware of that situation and it wasn't a factor.
Lu- You're just getting me worried now
Prior to the first incident the hook had been removed for a filming sortie with a Wescam.
On the first job I lifted 3 loads successfully, the 4th was 900kgs of fertilizer,100% torque was pulled, positioned directly over the load with a 15-20kt headwind an easy lift,no hassles anticipated and before it came off the ground the the lifting gear just dropped away.
Second day- replacement hook new location - trickier job longer line into small clearing through a tree canopy- light winds and a lighter load around 500 kgs. 1st lift of the day, with a normal lift and transit to a hover,then as I was lowering the load into the clearing the lot went.
I've always flown with the electric release armed, and Ive had my finger hover over that button on a number of occasions in the past for various scary reasons but not on these two occasions.
Thanks again
arm the floats
edited for spelling
Widgeon - it is a Breeze Hook and thanks for the links, I'm double checking with engineering that we do all that is suggested following the US safecoms.(I'm 99% sure we do).
MBJ - No Radhaz around the 2 different locations 100nm apart.
Shawn - Static wasn't a problem, no rain, hail, snow,lightening,dust or low cloud. Having said that I've flown in all of these weather conditions before in the same aircraft in exactly the same configeration around pylons and mobile phone masts and have never ever had a problem.On my test flights afterwards I had all the lights on as usual and also transmitted on the marineband and airband comms with no adverse effect. The hook /eye problem, yes I'm aware of that situation and it wasn't a factor.
Lu- You're just getting me worried now
Prior to the first incident the hook had been removed for a filming sortie with a Wescam.
On the first job I lifted 3 loads successfully, the 4th was 900kgs of fertilizer,100% torque was pulled, positioned directly over the load with a 15-20kt headwind an easy lift,no hassles anticipated and before it came off the ground the the lifting gear just dropped away.
Second day- replacement hook new location - trickier job longer line into small clearing through a tree canopy- light winds and a lighter load around 500 kgs. 1st lift of the day, with a normal lift and transit to a hover,then as I was lowering the load into the clearing the lot went.
I've always flown with the electric release armed, and Ive had my finger hover over that button on a number of occasions in the past for various scary reasons but not on these two occasions.
Thanks again
arm the floats
edited for spelling
Last edited by arm the floats; 5th October 2004 at 20:34.
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,084
Likes: 1
From: the cockpit
atf: What if the two were unrelated and coincidental? Armed with info on the second load, I am wondering if they are seperate causes?
You have definately gone through all the right steps to solve the issue, so the suggestions below are more as a result of ponderings because you havent indicated the depth of your testing, rather than any questioning of your analysis: so forgive me if it sounds otherwise.
The pick up still seems like rollout, but I would have to see the hook design first - some are protected against rollout). This can sometimes be caused by other things than eye size, and it is sometimes possible to use the sling to assist in rollout, but very unlikely. Also, I have seen one or two people achieve a rollout where many others tried to replicate it and failed, believing that it could not be done. The reason I am thinking rollout is that the hook was firmly closed when you inspected it. I know that it could flick shut after an inadvertant release, but during the pick up I am wondering about how much load was applied - though you do say 100% TQ.
On the put down - I know you have checked, but the release cable can always be a suspect, even if it appears to be of sufficient length. Test it's rigidity with a heavy load on, and then see what happens with a bit of load movement.
Good luck. We would love to hear the outcome if you find one.
You have definately gone through all the right steps to solve the issue, so the suggestions below are more as a result of ponderings because you havent indicated the depth of your testing, rather than any questioning of your analysis: so forgive me if it sounds otherwise.
The pick up still seems like rollout, but I would have to see the hook design first - some are protected against rollout). This can sometimes be caused by other things than eye size, and it is sometimes possible to use the sling to assist in rollout, but very unlikely. Also, I have seen one or two people achieve a rollout where many others tried to replicate it and failed, believing that it could not be done. The reason I am thinking rollout is that the hook was firmly closed when you inspected it. I know that it could flick shut after an inadvertant release, but during the pick up I am wondering about how much load was applied - though you do say 100% TQ.
On the put down - I know you have checked, but the release cable can always be a suspect, even if it appears to be of sufficient length. Test it's rigidity with a heavy load on, and then see what happens with a bit of load movement.
Good luck. We would love to hear the outcome if you find one.
Joined: Aug 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 4,411
Likes: 83
From: Gold Coast, Australia
ATF,
The issue of problems with Breeze hooks was raised in this thread . Along with other BK117 operators, I had (past tense) a Breeze Eastern A45, which gave a number of uncommanded jettisons. These are 30+ year old designs, and no longer supported by Breeze Eastern, as per Service Information Letter dated 26th April 2002. The fault is to do with tension on the emergency (manual) release, which appears to be interfaced with the auto release feature that was designed into the hook, but not used. The hook's fine in flight until <100lbs force, when it then 'auto releases'.
We've replaced our hooks with OBS Talon keeperless units, which are great. We have had to fabricate bumper rings to protect the hook, since the BK suspension system drops it (the hook) into the dirt and dust on every landing, which would soon wreck the unit, but otherwise it is a vast improvement, especially not having to worry about the diameter of the ring attached to the hook. With the keeperless system, it will accept any size without any risk of roll out
The issue of problems with Breeze hooks was raised in this thread . Along with other BK117 operators, I had (past tense) a Breeze Eastern A45, which gave a number of uncommanded jettisons. These are 30+ year old designs, and no longer supported by Breeze Eastern, as per Service Information Letter dated 26th April 2002. The fault is to do with tension on the emergency (manual) release, which appears to be interfaced with the auto release feature that was designed into the hook, but not used. The hook's fine in flight until <100lbs force, when it then 'auto releases'.
We've replaced our hooks with OBS Talon keeperless units, which are great. We have had to fabricate bumper rings to protect the hook, since the BK suspension system drops it (the hook) into the dirt and dust on every landing, which would soon wreck the unit, but otherwise it is a vast improvement, especially not having to worry about the diameter of the ring attached to the hook. With the keeperless system, it will accept any size without any risk of roll out
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
From: Aberdeen,UK
All good stuff guys.
Helmet Fire, I agree that the 2 might be unrelated and coincidental but I can assure it definately wasn't roll out. 80% of our work is lifting.Our lifting chains are attached to the belly hook of the aircraft....never the load directly.The lifting chains are attached by a shackle of a specific size that would preclude this.
Thanks for the link John I hadn't seen that one before.
The hook type is A25LT.Standard for the AS350. I've talked to the other main lifting company up here,they're investigating any previous incidents (not totally sure if they'd had anything similar),but they'll get back to me shortly.I'll keep you posted.
Cheers
arm the floats
Helmet Fire, I agree that the 2 might be unrelated and coincidental but I can assure it definately wasn't roll out. 80% of our work is lifting.Our lifting chains are attached to the belly hook of the aircraft....never the load directly.The lifting chains are attached by a shackle of a specific size that would preclude this.
Thanks for the link John I hadn't seen that one before.
The hook type is A25LT.Standard for the AS350. I've talked to the other main lifting company up here,they're investigating any previous incidents (not totally sure if they'd had anything similar),but they'll get back to me shortly.I'll keep you posted.
Cheers
arm the floats
Transparency International
Joined: Jul 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 755
Likes: 3
From: Denmark
Yes, it is quite normal to be terrified when a 700kg load swings wildly under you.
But why did it begin to swing ?
If it is due to aerodynamics, then slow down. If that doesn't work sufficiently, land and repack - heavy part of load will try to point in direction of flight (draggy part trails). If that still doesn't work you will have to get a net to carry the load in. The net will act as a spoiler and kill any tendency for the load to fly on its own.
If it is not due to aerodynamics, then treat the load as a pendulum. Take the energy out of the load by lowering the collective and/or follow the load by banking to the same side as the load swings. The last method can be modified into an ever so slight application of pedal to same side as the load swings, i.e. starting a turn "into" the load.
You will eventually develop flying skills to unconsciously cancel out a non-aerodynamic swing. Loads that want to fly somewhere else will be with you forever.
Ray Poutry [sp?] wrote a number of articles about sling technique in Rotor & Wing many many moons ago - I think they were published in a book.
But why did it begin to swing ?
If it is due to aerodynamics, then slow down. If that doesn't work sufficiently, land and repack - heavy part of load will try to point in direction of flight (draggy part trails). If that still doesn't work you will have to get a net to carry the load in. The net will act as a spoiler and kill any tendency for the load to fly on its own.
If it is not due to aerodynamics, then treat the load as a pendulum. Take the energy out of the load by lowering the collective and/or follow the load by banking to the same side as the load swings. The last method can be modified into an ever so slight application of pedal to same side as the load swings, i.e. starting a turn "into" the load.
You will eventually develop flying skills to unconsciously cancel out a non-aerodynamic swing. Loads that want to fly somewhere else will be with you forever.
Ray Poutry [sp?] wrote a number of articles about sling technique in Rotor & Wing many many moons ago - I think they were published in a book.