Slingloading & Longlining
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Flying the (Long)Line
Seeing as most of this forum's contributers live in Britain, Auz, or NZ, I'd like to put out the questions:
How many of you are regularly flying a long-line (100ft+), and do employers encourage the building of this skill? If so, are there experienced guys teaching it? And what types of work are you doing when verticle reference is required?
RH
How many of you are regularly flying a long-line (100ft+), and do employers encourage the building of this skill? If so, are there experienced guys teaching it? And what types of work are you doing when verticle reference is required?
RH
Remote....
Think of the interesting topic it would be to suggest flying a 212 from the left seat Solo......and using a bubble door with gauges and start buttons and such on the left hand collective.
Oh, dear....
Think of the interesting topic it would be to suggest flying a 212 from the left seat Solo......and using a bubble door with gauges and start buttons and such on the left hand collective.
Oh, dear....
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SAS,
Can you imagine the chaos?? Lol, it is an interesting subject though, the evolution of slinging/long-lining, things were just done because they had to be and people learned as they went.
Different times now though.
PS, can you imagine your senaro in a Left hand drive Astar with the door off and gauges bolted to the outside? Throw in a 5'10" tall driver, then it gets interesting!
Can you imagine the chaos?? Lol, it is an interesting subject though, the evolution of slinging/long-lining, things were just done because they had to be and people learned as they went.
Different times now though.
PS, can you imagine your senaro in a Left hand drive Astar with the door off and gauges bolted to the outside? Throw in a 5'10" tall driver, then it gets interesting!
Regularly flying 100', no: but whenever we do lifts these days we tend to use the 100ft line from preference. Downwash, access and suitability all play a part in which length line to choose, but it is always noticeable that it takes a couple of lifts to get accuracy, if you haven't done any lifting for a while.
Like any skill, it's always there when needed, if you have developed it along the way. Remote Hook, the AS350 has a floor window mod on the RH pilot's side, supposedly to allow vertical reference in sling work. From what I understand, tho', it's not much cop for long line work.
Like any skill, it's always there when needed, if you have developed it along the way. Remote Hook, the AS350 has a floor window mod on the RH pilot's side, supposedly to allow vertical reference in sling work. From what I understand, tho', it's not much cop for long line work.
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John,
‘Not much cop for long line work’ describes the AS 350 for me whether or not you use the floor window, the LHS installation or the ‘Airwork mod’ which moves the RHS rails closer to the door, extends the collective lever to the right but doesn’t stop your right foot dropping into the chin window well. With the AS350B3 model you cannot see the screen displaying the power indication with your head out the door and moving in and out of the door is in itself a nightmare. Give me the Lama any day (and all day)!!
SS
‘Not much cop for long line work’ describes the AS 350 for me whether or not you use the floor window, the LHS installation or the ‘Airwork mod’ which moves the RHS rails closer to the door, extends the collective lever to the right but doesn’t stop your right foot dropping into the chin window well. With the AS350B3 model you cannot see the screen displaying the power indication with your head out the door and moving in and out of the door is in itself a nightmare. Give me the Lama any day (and all day)!!
SS
At my age.....who can see the end of a 200 foot line?
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John,
I was poking a bit of fun at the Lefty(AS-350BA7) for long-lining, I spent 6hrs one day last month with it and had enough! With right skid low, a normal sized guy like myself has an aweful time seeing over the collective, throttle and door sill. It's not like the Bell's where you're quite close to the door!
I normally use a regular B2 for line work, remove the floor window(s) from their rubber and it's not too bad. Once you get used to not seeing the load most of the time in the window, I actually quite like it. There are a couple different sized windows available, the bigger one obviously being better.
Most people seem to feel that a 120ft line is preferable with the Astar, but I've been experimenting with a 50 footer and am really quite impressed with the results. The drawbacks there being tree clearance, and downwash of course. With the 120, the load will hang nicely in the window when under translation speeds, the lighter the load the slower you have to be, but somethng heavy and small sits there quite well.
Of course removing the door makes a huge difference in the 350, but that's a big hole once the colder wx comes, and a few guys who have bags of time LL in them feel the lifting power is compromised when the doors are removed.
RH
I was poking a bit of fun at the Lefty(AS-350BA7) for long-lining, I spent 6hrs one day last month with it and had enough! With right skid low, a normal sized guy like myself has an aweful time seeing over the collective, throttle and door sill. It's not like the Bell's where you're quite close to the door!
I normally use a regular B2 for line work, remove the floor window(s) from their rubber and it's not too bad. Once you get used to not seeing the load most of the time in the window, I actually quite like it. There are a couple different sized windows available, the bigger one obviously being better.
Most people seem to feel that a 120ft line is preferable with the Astar, but I've been experimenting with a 50 footer and am really quite impressed with the results. The drawbacks there being tree clearance, and downwash of course. With the 120, the load will hang nicely in the window when under translation speeds, the lighter the load the slower you have to be, but somethng heavy and small sits there quite well.
Of course removing the door makes a huge difference in the 350, but that's a big hole once the colder wx comes, and a few guys who have bags of time LL in them feel the lifting power is compromised when the doors are removed.
RH
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Not much call for long line
G'day Remote,
In the Chinook (military) world, we sometimes use an extended strop (50 to 100') as opposed to a long line. The difference is that the long line usually has the hook/release at the end of the line whereas the extended strop is released directly from the fuselage hook. So in order to release a load, we must release the strop. Not exactly the same, but the skills required are similar, although we use crewmen (Loadmasters, Flight Engineers) to call the pilots into position as opposed to using a bubble window and the pilot doing the placement by direct line of sight.
There are a few companies here that do some long line work especially in 214s and the like; but my guess is that it is more prevalent in countries like Canada where aerial logging amongst tall trees and thick forest or in Papua New Guinea where construction work in tall jungle requires that sort of expertise.
Cheers
CB
In the Chinook (military) world, we sometimes use an extended strop (50 to 100') as opposed to a long line. The difference is that the long line usually has the hook/release at the end of the line whereas the extended strop is released directly from the fuselage hook. So in order to release a load, we must release the strop. Not exactly the same, but the skills required are similar, although we use crewmen (Loadmasters, Flight Engineers) to call the pilots into position as opposed to using a bubble window and the pilot doing the placement by direct line of sight.
There are a few companies here that do some long line work especially in 214s and the like; but my guess is that it is more prevalent in countries like Canada where aerial logging amongst tall trees and thick forest or in Papua New Guinea where construction work in tall jungle requires that sort of expertise.
Cheers
CB
Conway - I have to disagree with your "...the skills required are similar..." statement. Hovering with a load on the hook whilst in your normal seating position, looking out the front at your hover references while 1 or 2 crewmen con you into position is a very different proposition to twisting your body sideways, hanging out the door with your arms and legs at full stretch trying to manipulate the controls whilst trying to judge height, speed, and movement with just the ground below as a reference.
Mark Six...
I would have said it a bit differently....after 2000 hours of Chinook flying in the military...I thought I knew how to fly helicopters. In short order....after becoming a civvie helicopter pilot....I discovered there is a whole new world out there.
Longline work and military underslung work are two very completely different skill sets.....and not to be confused in any way as being similar when it comes to "underslung work".
If you cannot see the hook and load.....and do it all by yourself....it is not long lining.....sorry.
I would have said it a bit differently....after 2000 hours of Chinook flying in the military...I thought I knew how to fly helicopters. In short order....after becoming a civvie helicopter pilot....I discovered there is a whole new world out there.
Longline work and military underslung work are two very completely different skill sets.....and not to be confused in any way as being similar when it comes to "underslung work".
If you cannot see the hook and load.....and do it all by yourself....it is not long lining.....sorry.
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remote hook -
There's a few guys doing it in UK, but it is a well-kept secret, and the positioning is done with mirrors if you're by yourself in a 350/355. I'm not so sure that the authorities like VR, but I don't think any of them have any skills in that direction anyway, not from the "real world" at any rate. There are one or two experienced guys teaching it, but again, it's not promoted too much. PM me if you want details.
To quote one company not a million miles from the North of Scotland (not PDG): "There's no requirement, so we don't use it." They've obviously never heard of being proactive and letting customers know it's available. Personally, stressing the fish with the downwash with a 30 ft strop is not a good idea, aside from being too close to the tanks.
We use it for putting poles in holes for 11 kv power lines, but we don't have holes in the floors of our Astars, and the line we use is 100 ft.
I have used a 75 ft line in Canada out of a TwinStar, and had to keep swinging the load so I could see it, but I prefer a 407/206L if I'm going to stick my head out of the door. Incidentally, even if you can't get your head all the way out in a 350, taking the doors off is still a good help with the peripheral vision.
As the man said, if you ain't got your head out of the door, it ain't longling, but vertical reference is a better term if you haven't got a ground crew or observer.
There's a few guys doing it in UK, but it is a well-kept secret, and the positioning is done with mirrors if you're by yourself in a 350/355. I'm not so sure that the authorities like VR, but I don't think any of them have any skills in that direction anyway, not from the "real world" at any rate. There are one or two experienced guys teaching it, but again, it's not promoted too much. PM me if you want details.
To quote one company not a million miles from the North of Scotland (not PDG): "There's no requirement, so we don't use it." They've obviously never heard of being proactive and letting customers know it's available. Personally, stressing the fish with the downwash with a 30 ft strop is not a good idea, aside from being too close to the tanks.
We use it for putting poles in holes for 11 kv power lines, but we don't have holes in the floors of our Astars, and the line we use is 100 ft.
I have used a 75 ft line in Canada out of a TwinStar, and had to keep swinging the load so I could see it, but I prefer a 407/206L if I'm going to stick my head out of the door. Incidentally, even if you can't get your head all the way out in a 350, taking the doors off is still a good help with the peripheral vision.
As the man said, if you ain't got your head out of the door, it ain't longling, but vertical reference is a better term if you haven't got a ground crew or observer.
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Mark Six and SASless,
Yep, granted. I can't say that I've bent my body sideways in the cockpit often looking down... I doff my hat to you.
I'm sure PPRUNErs can accede that communication by written form can always be misinterpreted. Just harken back to your CRM course or look at the arguments on these forums to see examples of how something written is easily mistaken.
What I MEANT to say was that the skills in placing a load on the ground at the end of an extended strop, ie anticipating load swing, ensuring proper ROD, etc are similar. I fully acknowledge that the job is markedly easier with crewmen assisting the pilot and that the actual 'poling' skills when doing it without that assistance of crewmen is different and more difficult.
As for my other assertions; that longlining is more prevalent in places with significantly higher and denser obstacles such as tall trees/jungle remains the same. I saw more longlining in PNG than I do in Oz, but I do know of some companies here that do it quite regularly.
Cheers
Yep, granted. I can't say that I've bent my body sideways in the cockpit often looking down... I doff my hat to you.
I'm sure PPRUNErs can accede that communication by written form can always be misinterpreted. Just harken back to your CRM course or look at the arguments on these forums to see examples of how something written is easily mistaken.
What I MEANT to say was that the skills in placing a load on the ground at the end of an extended strop, ie anticipating load swing, ensuring proper ROD, etc are similar. I fully acknowledge that the job is markedly easier with crewmen assisting the pilot and that the actual 'poling' skills when doing it without that assistance of crewmen is different and more difficult.
As for my other assertions; that longlining is more prevalent in places with significantly higher and denser obstacles such as tall trees/jungle remains the same. I saw more longlining in PNG than I do in Oz, but I do know of some companies here that do it quite regularly.
Cheers
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remote,
give a 130ft line a go. it seems to be the optimum length for the 350 with the load hanging fairly central (slightly aft) in the floor window. also gives you good tree clearance and the guys on the ground are much happier. anything shorter than 100ft largely takes the floor window out of the equation and becomes a sling load.
paco,
if guys are 'long-lining' out of squirrels in the uk using mirrors to position their loads then they must have exceptional eyesight, skill and huge mirrors or l'm thinking that their well kept secret is a porky pie!
give a 130ft line a go. it seems to be the optimum length for the 350 with the load hanging fairly central (slightly aft) in the floor window. also gives you good tree clearance and the guys on the ground are much happier. anything shorter than 100ft largely takes the floor window out of the equation and becomes a sling load.
paco,
if guys are 'long-lining' out of squirrels in the uk using mirrors to position their loads then they must have exceptional eyesight, skill and huge mirrors or l'm thinking that their well kept secret is a porky pie!
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No porky pies, but the line is relatively short. We ourselves have the luxury of a crewman sticking his head out of the back door, but the mirror is still used.
phil
phil
The Veloceraptor of Lounge Lizards
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I'm doing some very shortly with a 150' strop. Mirrors are ok for checking the load in flight, but I would really struggle with that length of cable without the crewman sticking his head out the door. More normal for us is a 100' cable. Having watched paco in action a few times I still wonder how he makes it look easy. Personally I'm delighted to get over the load without the crewman whimpering