Slingloading & Longlining
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: California
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FAR 133 Application - Anybody Done it?
All,
I'm considering getting certified under FAA Part 133 for External Load work. I'm wondering if anyone has done this and has any pointers or examples of what has worked in the past. For instance, the required "Rotorcraft-load combination flight manual" sounds like a great opportunity to get myself in trouble
Any thoughts? Should I just pack my bags and head to the looney bin for thinking about trying to get past the red tape?
I'm considering getting certified under FAA Part 133 for External Load work. I'm wondering if anyone has done this and has any pointers or examples of what has worked in the past. For instance, the required "Rotorcraft-load combination flight manual" sounds like a great opportunity to get myself in trouble
Any thoughts? Should I just pack my bags and head to the looney bin for thinking about trying to get past the red tape?
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: New England
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It is a relatively straight forward process. My best advice is to contact your local FSDO and speak to the rotary wing operations person and start on establishing a good rapport with him/her. We used the Van Nuys FSDO and they were great.
In terms on the RLCFM, look at this web link:
http://www2.faa.gov/avr/afs/faa/8700...2/2_098_00.pdf
It lays out how the FAA evaluiates your proposed manual and even has diagrams for signals that you could scan and insert into your proposed manual.
Get the paperwork started as soon as you can. It can take a while, depending on the backlog.
In terms on the RLCFM, look at this web link:
http://www2.faa.gov/avr/afs/faa/8700...2/2_098_00.pdf
It lays out how the FAA evaluiates your proposed manual and even has diagrams for signals that you could scan and insert into your proposed manual.
Get the paperwork started as soon as you can. It can take a while, depending on the backlog.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: California
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Wow.....
Thanks Mike, that's about ....well, exactly what I was looking for
Let me know if you're ever going to be in the SF Bay area during the week or out near Yosemite on the weekends.....
matthew
[email protected]
Thanks Mike, that's about ....well, exactly what I was looking for
Let me know if you're ever going to be in the SF Bay area during the week or out near Yosemite on the weekends.....
matthew
[email protected]
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: New England
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Your welcome.
Likewise, if your headed down to the Antelope Valley area, feel free to drop in to KMHV to visit us at NTPS to see what we do. We have all the 133 paperwork on file if you still need assistance. Our website is: www.ntps.edu
Mike
Likewise, if your headed down to the Antelope Valley area, feel free to drop in to KMHV to visit us at NTPS to see what we do. We have all the 133 paperwork on file if you still need assistance. Our website is: www.ntps.edu
Mike
A couple of thoughts about techniques mentioned earlier in the thread:
A few posts mentioned 'ground effect' at the bottom of the approach with a load; it's my experience that any ground effect with a slingload is negligable at best and I certainly wouldn't rely on getting any observable performance advantage from it.
A technique I used a lot when flying load to the tops of mountains, hot and high was to 'fly the load' using the mirror to a zero speed touchdown. You could be in a position that would prevent having sufficient power to hover but as soon as the load made contact with terra firma, you immediately gained extra performance. However, this required being very familiar with your aircraft and conditions and could easily end in tears if poorly judged. I'd only use this technique with netted, resilient loads!
Regarding the 'slingshot' technique, I've never had to do one. However, one dark night on goggles I was tasked to lift a very heavy piece of equipment from a boggy field in a hostile area. All the calculations were carefully done and it should have been well within the Wessex' capability. The load was hooked up and power gently increased to 3200lb (max tq) but it didn't budge. The cause, it occured to me at the time might be the 'surface tension' of the mud. So what I did was carefully ease the Wessex fore and aft whilst maintaining max power and the strop tightly tensioned. (I'd estimate the strop angle reached about 30 - 40 degs from the vertical). After a couple of cycles of rocking the load, one edge came free and the whole thing then came unstuck; it was a straightforward lift after that with a hover torque of about 3000lbs.
Anyone else tried similar techniques! J
A few posts mentioned 'ground effect' at the bottom of the approach with a load; it's my experience that any ground effect with a slingload is negligable at best and I certainly wouldn't rely on getting any observable performance advantage from it.
A technique I used a lot when flying load to the tops of mountains, hot and high was to 'fly the load' using the mirror to a zero speed touchdown. You could be in a position that would prevent having sufficient power to hover but as soon as the load made contact with terra firma, you immediately gained extra performance. However, this required being very familiar with your aircraft and conditions and could easily end in tears if poorly judged. I'd only use this technique with netted, resilient loads!
Regarding the 'slingshot' technique, I've never had to do one. However, one dark night on goggles I was tasked to lift a very heavy piece of equipment from a boggy field in a hostile area. All the calculations were carefully done and it should have been well within the Wessex' capability. The load was hooked up and power gently increased to 3200lb (max tq) but it didn't budge. The cause, it occured to me at the time might be the 'surface tension' of the mud. So what I did was carefully ease the Wessex fore and aft whilst maintaining max power and the strop tightly tensioned. (I'd estimate the strop angle reached about 30 - 40 degs from the vertical). After a couple of cycles of rocking the load, one edge came free and the whole thing then came unstuck; it was a straightforward lift after that with a hover torque of about 3000lbs.
Anyone else tried similar techniques! J
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: UK
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Slingload training
My understanding is that there is no formal slingload training required in the UK.Nor any requirements for base/line checks (specifically for slinging) is this true?Can any UK pilots elaborate?
What happens in the rest of europe? are there any requirements in France ,Germany, Spain?
I believe in the States FAR 133 covers pilot requirements and recurrent training but I'm not sure what happens in Canada?
Its interesting to note that the rules seem tighter (certainly in the states),than Europe.
What happens in the rest of europe? are there any requirements in France ,Germany, Spain?
I believe in the States FAR 133 covers pilot requirements and recurrent training but I'm not sure what happens in Canada?
Its interesting to note that the rules seem tighter (certainly in the states),than Europe.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
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Yep, as far as I am aware, there is no sling, or vertical reference training in the UK. SAD isn`t it?
Helicopters are a utiltiy piece of equipment, yet not in the UK, and for the best part of Europe. I can tell you this - In Canada you have an introduction to slinging (possibly 5 hours). If you get to commercial skill level (as I did) in time , and with the right operator and school, you get longline 50-150, bambi bucket, hover exit etc. And all in 100hrs of training. Don`t see any UK schools doing that!!! No real precision stuff in the UK. Very sad. (bar some military pilots)
But we all know that the UK CAA knows best.
I rest my case
Decimal
PS Not sure about FAA formal slingload training. But I think I`ve made a point.
Helicopters are a utiltiy piece of equipment, yet not in the UK, and for the best part of Europe. I can tell you this - In Canada you have an introduction to slinging (possibly 5 hours). If you get to commercial skill level (as I did) in time , and with the right operator and school, you get longline 50-150, bambi bucket, hover exit etc. And all in 100hrs of training. Don`t see any UK schools doing that!!! No real precision stuff in the UK. Very sad. (bar some military pilots)
But we all know that the UK CAA knows best.
I rest my case
Decimal
PS Not sure about FAA formal slingload training. But I think I`ve made a point.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: White Waltham, Prestwick & Calgary
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That's correct, there is no formal ticket as there is in the US. There isn't one in Canada either, but it is still in the basic CPL course. In UK, it's very much left to the operator, unless you were in the military
Phil
Phil
So, here's some homework:
http://www.airborneflighttraining.com/gallery.html - play a video from the choice 2/3rds down the LHS side of the page.
Next - anyone aware of slingload training available in the UK ? Along with snow flying and water bombing training ?
If not I may have to take my missus up on the offer of blowing a few grand on a trip to Kelowna . . . once I've got another IT job, that is !
http://www.airborneflighttraining.com/gallery.html - play a video from the choice 2/3rds down the LHS side of the page.
Next - anyone aware of slingload training available in the UK ? Along with snow flying and water bombing training ?
If not I may have to take my missus up on the offer of blowing a few grand on a trip to Kelowna . . . once I've got another IT job, that is !
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Spain
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In Spain there isn't any external cargo endorsement but nevertheless, after some accidents occurred during firefighting, our Civil Aviation Authority came out with new regulations for that type of operations and since year 2000 there is a new rating called "Agroforestal" that qualifies to do those jobs, mostly water bombing which in some sense is external load operations. It's suposed to be about 90 hours of ground training and about 15 hours flight.
Not that this rating teaches you everything about fighting fires, but still a first step towards getting you in the way of learning with some previous advice. I guess it's the same process for all ratings, they don't teach everything but give you the knowledge to start learning, after that you need to get experience and is up to operators to get the right people for the right job.
Buen vuelo
Not that this rating teaches you everything about fighting fires, but still a first step towards getting you in the way of learning with some previous advice. I guess it's the same process for all ratings, they don't teach everything but give you the knowledge to start learning, after that you need to get experience and is up to operators to get the right people for the right job.
Buen vuelo
What a wonderful video , just dreaming with this kind of training after my getting my license...
http://www.airborneflighttraining.co...romo_large.wmv
Here is the direct link if you want to download it (22mb)
Regards.
http://www.airborneflighttraining.co...romo_large.wmv
Here is the direct link if you want to download it (22mb)
Regards.
Join Date: Feb 2002
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Sling load training is a part of the basic CPL course over here aswell but to do aerial application a dusting and spraying rating is required, which involves 60hrs theory 30hrs flying training.
As far as I can remember off the top of my head there are no currency or minimum hours requirements at all.
As for keeping your hand in when there are no regular contracts..find an employer that will pay for that!
As far as I can remember off the top of my head there are no currency or minimum hours requirements at all.
As for keeping your hand in when there are no regular contracts..find an employer that will pay for that!
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: White Waltham, Prestwick & Calgary
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Help with spinning load
Hi guys - we've got this thing that spins like mad when empty - I have already suggested a mesh at the front (there is one at the back) - but has anyone else got a suggestion?
cheers
Phil
cheers
Phil
A big long tether line so your mates can hold onto it?
Small 2' drogue parachute trailing off the back? Just big enough to make it face the front and behave, small enuf not to drag it back too far.
Small 2' drogue parachute trailing off the back? Just big enough to make it face the front and behave, small enuf not to drag it back too far.
Join Date: Dec 2002
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Go find the largest plastic funnel you can, get get some rope (climbing or otherwise) and feed one end down the nozzle end and tie off a good size knot (to sit in funnel end) attach free end to container so it will act as a drogue to stabilise in flight AND can also be used by ground crew to coax container position when landing or taking off ???
Only a suggestion you understand ( but will probably workwell).
Only a suggestion you understand ( but will probably workwell).
I don-t know what lengh of line you are using but sometimes a longer line does the trick, mainly if that thing is spinning at low speed when a drag device or a fin is not efficient enough.
Maybe a cover in order to make a more compact shape of it, might also help a drag device in stabilizing at higher speeds.
Maybe a cover in order to make a more compact shape of it, might also help a drag device in stabilizing at higher speeds.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Chilliwack, BC Canada
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If you've ever seen a Simplex or Isolair seeding bucket, they have what amounts to a vertical fin on the back ...in fixed wing fashion. it doesn't take the spin out at low speeds, but after you begin moving...straight as an Ottawa Politician ?? er straight as an arrow perhaps !
I suggest, bolt a fin, or even a couple of fins on the back, maybe one on each side like a Cessna 337
I suggest, bolt a fin, or even a couple of fins on the back, maybe one on each side like a Cessna 337
The answer is in the picture
Cut down one of those saplings behind the guys in the picture, and tie it on, by the root, with a 20 foot line.
That is what trees are for - they stabilise any load.
That is what trees are for - they stabilise any load.