Bell 210
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Canada
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Vancouver Island Helicopters has had 205B ser#30188 (C-GVIE), since 1999 and yes I believe it came from Japan. It works well and is a popular machine with the customers.
Mark C-GVIE Serial No 30188
Common Name Bell Model 205B
Base Of Op. - Country CANADA
Base Of Op. - Province British Columbia
Base Of Op. - Location Sidney
File Location Vancouver Basis for Eligibility for Registration Type Certificate - H104
Type of Registration Commercial
Category Helicopter Weight (Kgs) 4763
Manufacturer Bell Helicopter Company Division Of Textron Inc
Year of Manufacture 1975 Year Imported 1999
Country of Manufacture U.S.A.
Owner Registration
Owner Registered Since 1999-07-08 Last Certificate of Registration Issued 2003-05-23
Engine Turbo Shaft Number of Engines 1
Owner Information
Name ( 1 of 1 ) Vancouver Island Helicopters Ltd Mail Recipient Yes
Address 1962 Canso Rd
City North Saanich Province British Columbia
Postal Code V8L 5V5 Region Pacific
Mark C-GVIE Serial No 30188
Common Name Bell Model 205B
Base Of Op. - Country CANADA
Base Of Op. - Province British Columbia
Base Of Op. - Location Sidney
File Location Vancouver Basis for Eligibility for Registration Type Certificate - H104
Type of Registration Commercial
Category Helicopter Weight (Kgs) 4763
Manufacturer Bell Helicopter Company Division Of Textron Inc
Year of Manufacture 1975 Year Imported 1999
Country of Manufacture U.S.A.
Owner Registration
Owner Registered Since 1999-07-08 Last Certificate of Registration Issued 2003-05-23
Engine Turbo Shaft Number of Engines 1
Owner Information
Name ( 1 of 1 ) Vancouver Island Helicopters Ltd Mail Recipient Yes
Address 1962 Canso Rd
City North Saanich Province British Columbia
Postal Code V8L 5V5 Region Pacific
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Chilliwack, BC Canada
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Dynamic, you're honesty is (no doubt) only exceeded by your intellect and good looks ! 
We all use numbers to our advantage, and it's big of you to admit that. As I said, It CAN be done, but as with my 407 and the 6,000 external AUW, I rarely if ever do it We plan on 1300 to 1700 lb internal loads depending on fuel, and generally choke the Bambi Bucket (180 Img Gal / 818 L) down to 70% or 80% when working at altitude.
On fires in Canada, it's quite common for Mediums to be used on crew moves.
We all use numbers to our advantage, and it's big of you to admit that. As I said, It CAN be done, but as with my 407 and the 6,000 external AUW, I rarely if ever do it We plan on 1300 to 1700 lb internal loads depending on fuel, and generally choke the Bambi Bucket (180 Img Gal / 818 L) down to 70% or 80% when working at altitude.On fires in Canada, it's quite common for Mediums to be used on crew moves.
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: South of the Equator
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Semi official BHT's Figures
B210:
AEW................5800 lbs.......2630 kgs [2.205 conversion]
MTOW Internal 10500 lbs......4762 kgs
MTOW External 11500 lbs......5215 kgs
Basically a Huey ll with dual hydraulics.
Its going to be a workhorse lifter!!
AEW................5800 lbs.......2630 kgs [2.205 conversion]
MTOW Internal 10500 lbs......4762 kgs
MTOW External 11500 lbs......5215 kgs
Basically a Huey ll with dual hydraulics.
Its going to be a workhorse lifter!!
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: states
Age: 68
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Bell 210
Look at the TC for the Bell 210....
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...$FILE/H1sw.pdf
Under the gross weight limitations, it is not currently approved for external loads...
For 3 million dollars, I guess they are just cool to have sitting on the ramp.....
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...$FILE/H1sw.pdf
Under the gross weight limitations, it is not currently approved for external loads...
For 3 million dollars, I guess they are just cool to have sitting on the ramp.....
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: the hills of halton
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See the lastest RFQ for the LUH has had IFR capability added , I read that this virtually eliminates the 210 from the competition. Can you not get single engined bell certified for Ifr flight if it has dual hyd and dual generators ?.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Huntsville AL
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I read somewhere that Bell had all but decided not to offer the 210 because the requirements had changed (IFR etc). If this is the case I wonder how much market there will be for the 210. I can't see too many UH-1H operators trading in a $500,000 aircraft to get back basically the same ship but certified standard category. The amount of work that would be opened up by using a non restricted cat helicopter wouldn't make up for the cost of the aircraft being 6 times as high! (3 million bucks). I would think that a 212/412 would be a better bet if they could afford it. Any 212/412 types care to compare numbers with the 210? I'd be interested to see how they measure up with real numbers.
Max
Max
Join Date: Apr 2003
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It is merciful for the next generation of Army helo pilots that the 210 will not be the LUH. The concept of the Huey was wonderful in the 1950's, practical in the 1960's and 70's and simply obsolete in the 21st century. The list of things that are wrong with the Huey (and the 210) is the history of what we have done to helicopters in the past 3 decades to make them safer, better and more capable.
Nostalgia is great, until your son has to fly it in combat!
Nostalgia is great, until your son has to fly it in combat!
A question Nick,
Is there any other airframe manufacturer that can zero time a used airfame other than Bell? Also is there an engine manufacturer other than Lycoming that can change an engine from Military surplus to a civilian engine by a simple records check?
What is the FAA thinking?
Is there any other airframe manufacturer that can zero time a used airfame other than Bell? Also is there an engine manufacturer other than Lycoming that can change an engine from Military surplus to a civilian engine by a simple records check?
What is the FAA thinking?
It does seem a bit odd that Bell and Honeywell can do what other maintenance and overhaul shops cannot when it comes to converting a military airframe to a Standard Catagory but others can only get a Restricted Catagory from the FAA. I would love to know how that works.
Nick,
I thought the solicitation specified the new aircraft would not be used in combat or outside CONUS....or did I mis-read that?
Lots of combat flying done in the old Bell's Nick....and afterall it is only 1950's technology....that is plenty good for the Army isn't it? The old girls were out working in New Orleans today....so they can still get the job done in the role being considered by the Army....granted flying IFR in the thing would be a fun task....as compared to the 412 with a four axis autopilot....or the 76.
Nick,
I thought the solicitation specified the new aircraft would not be used in combat or outside CONUS....or did I mis-read that?
Lots of combat flying done in the old Bell's Nick....and afterall it is only 1950's technology....that is plenty good for the Army isn't it? The old girls were out working in New Orleans today....so they can still get the job done in the role being considered by the Army....granted flying IFR in the thing would be a fun task....as compared to the 412 with a four axis autopilot....or the 76.
Didn't your military fly the Huey IFR?
Ours did, we blundered around in clouds, unstabilised, one hydraulic system, one battery, no emergency battery backup, and only a single ADF for navigation. Our government, in its brilliance, bought the machines fitted with ADF and Tacan, and paid for the Tacan sets to be removed and a lead weight installed for W&B.
I am astounded that we all survived. Mind you, it was a pretty desperate situation for us to launch if the weather was on the ground - most cloud-punching took place for training, and only when the cloudbase was above LSALT.
Ours did, we blundered around in clouds, unstabilised, one hydraulic system, one battery, no emergency battery backup, and only a single ADF for navigation. Our government, in its brilliance, bought the machines fitted with ADF and Tacan, and paid for the Tacan sets to be removed and a lead weight installed for W&B.
I am astounded that we all survived. Mind you, it was a pretty desperate situation for us to launch if the weather was on the ground - most cloud-punching took place for training, and only when the cloudbase was above LSALT.
Join Date: Sep 2000
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SASless...
Mother Bell has an advantage over the maintenance and overhaul shops you mention...
They made the original helicopter.... (hold the TC and production certificate...)
They can amend the existing TC's...
However, you may have noticed the trouble the original manufacturer has had in completing this project...
1. Took longer than anticipated.
2. When certificated, can't do external loads...
Mother Bell has an advantage over the maintenance and overhaul shops you mention...
They made the original helicopter.... (hold the TC and production certificate...)
They can amend the existing TC's...
However, you may have noticed the trouble the original manufacturer has had in completing this project...
1. Took longer than anticipated.
2. When certificated, can't do external loads...
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: USA
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SASless,
The idea that the LUH will not go into combat was used as the political ploy to allow the Guard to shun the Black Hawk, as a political sop to Bell.
In similar logic, I guess they will issue stun-guns to the guard Infantry units instead of M-16's and the Guard ADA batteries will get traffic violations pads to issue instead of Hawk Missiles!
Give me a break!
The idea that the LUH will not go into combat was used as the political ploy to allow the Guard to shun the Black Hawk, as a political sop to Bell.
In similar logic, I guess they will issue stun-guns to the guard Infantry units instead of M-16's and the Guard ADA batteries will get traffic violations pads to issue instead of Hawk Missiles!
Give me a break!
Join Date: May 2004
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I checked the TCDS for some other popular helicopters and did not find any specific references to allowing external loads, and no prohibition against them. Just because the 210's T.C. does not permit them, are we to assume they are prohibited? Maybe there is a flight manual supplement?
It is curious to compare the 210 with the 205A-1 or 205B. When looking at them side-by-side on paper, you'd have to wonder why Bell even bothered with the 210? It's even slower than some of it's "twin" brothers (and I don't mean the 212 either).
Certainly a manufacturer can "zero-time" or remanufacture his product. Teledyne Continental does it all the time with their piston engines. Why not Bell?
It is curious to compare the 210 with the 205A-1 or 205B. When looking at them side-by-side on paper, you'd have to wonder why Bell even bothered with the 210? It's even slower than some of it's "twin" brothers (and I don't mean the 212 either).
Certainly a manufacturer can "zero-time" or remanufacture his product. Teledyne Continental does it all the time with their piston engines. Why not Bell?
Dog,
What is required to "zero time" a Huey airframe and engine and meet the requirements for the Standard Catagory vice Restricted Catagory? That probably is two questions in one...."Zero Time" and the "Catagory" issues being quite different.
What is required to "zero time" a Huey airframe and engine and meet the requirements for the Standard Catagory vice Restricted Catagory? That probably is two questions in one...."Zero Time" and the "Catagory" issues being quite different.
The Rotordog
If it is no big deal to Zero time an airframe why don't all the manufacturers do it.? Wouldn't it be easier and cheaper for Boeing to take in some old 747's and zero them instead of start from scratch? Hell, for that matter why doesn't Bell offer the same service for their other models?
If it is no big deal to Zero time an airframe why don't all the manufacturers do it.? Wouldn't it be easier and cheaper for Boeing to take in some old 747's and zero them instead of start from scratch? Hell, for that matter why doesn't Bell offer the same service for their other models?
Join Date: Feb 2001
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Nick,
I think you're a little harsh to say it was merciful to not have the 210/Huey. Whe don't you say that about the CH47, its just as old and will be in service a lot longer. How, many other nine pax aircraft could you find for 3 mil or less? The UH145, or the MD Explorer don't have the cabin volume the 210 has. They sure can't get an S76 or an AB139 for anywhere near that price.
I for one thinks it makes sense for the government to buy a product that is less expensive to purchase and operate than many of the other options available. Just because it don't have weather radar, de-icing, or 3 axis AFCS doesn't mean it can't serve the nation well. I'm sorry, but I for one don't think that you need to use a Blackhawk, or an S92 to haul a tool box, or drop MRE's to hurricane survivors. Yep, I can haul more of these items with a Blackhawk, but I can also purchase a half dozen 210's for what a Blackhawk cost. Don't get me wrong, I am not bashing any of the Sikorsky products, but why use a Hummer to do what a 3/4 ton Chevy will do? Won't this free up other Blackhawks to perform the mission they were intended to do?
SASless,
There is a lot of work to zero time an airframe. First one has to find a good candidate, then they have to remove all the components, engines and wiring. Then, completely clean the airframe and perform any mods needed to bring the aircraft up to the current configuration. With the 210, all the rotors and drivetrain will be replaced with new 212 components and a zero timed engine. Its not as quite detailed as building new, but there still is a lot of work involved. As far as anyone else performing this operation, only the manufacturer has the drawings and specifications to complete the process and bring it to type design. Since the RFQ called for a Standard Catagory Aircraft all of the other wannabe's can only offer a "Restricted Catagory" aircraft. The RFQ also called for OEM support through their worldwide network and a small shop could never compete with that. In fact, you will be hard pressed to find any OEM that can compete with Bell's Customer Support Network.
I think you're a little harsh to say it was merciful to not have the 210/Huey. Whe don't you say that about the CH47, its just as old and will be in service a lot longer. How, many other nine pax aircraft could you find for 3 mil or less? The UH145, or the MD Explorer don't have the cabin volume the 210 has. They sure can't get an S76 or an AB139 for anywhere near that price.
I for one thinks it makes sense for the government to buy a product that is less expensive to purchase and operate than many of the other options available. Just because it don't have weather radar, de-icing, or 3 axis AFCS doesn't mean it can't serve the nation well. I'm sorry, but I for one don't think that you need to use a Blackhawk, or an S92 to haul a tool box, or drop MRE's to hurricane survivors. Yep, I can haul more of these items with a Blackhawk, but I can also purchase a half dozen 210's for what a Blackhawk cost. Don't get me wrong, I am not bashing any of the Sikorsky products, but why use a Hummer to do what a 3/4 ton Chevy will do? Won't this free up other Blackhawks to perform the mission they were intended to do?
SASless,
There is a lot of work to zero time an airframe. First one has to find a good candidate, then they have to remove all the components, engines and wiring. Then, completely clean the airframe and perform any mods needed to bring the aircraft up to the current configuration. With the 210, all the rotors and drivetrain will be replaced with new 212 components and a zero timed engine. Its not as quite detailed as building new, but there still is a lot of work involved. As far as anyone else performing this operation, only the manufacturer has the drawings and specifications to complete the process and bring it to type design. Since the RFQ called for a Standard Catagory Aircraft all of the other wannabe's can only offer a "Restricted Catagory" aircraft. The RFQ also called for OEM support through their worldwide network and a small shop could never compete with that. In fact, you will be hard pressed to find any OEM that can compete with Bell's Customer Support Network.
Join Date: Mar 2005
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Two issues here on the 747.
First, you would need to replace the wing, stabs and flight controls. All the rotables and tail boom on the 210 are replaced.
Second: you would need to replace the pressure vessel (fuselage) because of pressurization cycles.
Now you need a whole plane!
First, you would need to replace the wing, stabs and flight controls. All the rotables and tail boom on the 210 are replaced.
Second: you would need to replace the pressure vessel (fuselage) because of pressurization cycles.
Now you need a whole plane!
There you go Mustang ...confusing the issue with facts.
Now why is it the contract was written about the OEM providing parts for the Army 210....don't they buy their own parts inventory and stash them away in some hidden Army warehouse never to be seen again? Or....is this a more commonsense approach...buying a "commerical" aircraft much as civilians do...and buy a few parts for inventory and then buy on an as-needed basis for spares? What happens during a national crisis like New Orleans....and there are not enough parts on hand and the lead time for manufacturing them falls behind the demand?
Now why is it the contract was written about the OEM providing parts for the Army 210....don't they buy their own parts inventory and stash them away in some hidden Army warehouse never to be seen again? Or....is this a more commonsense approach...buying a "commerical" aircraft much as civilians do...and buy a few parts for inventory and then buy on an as-needed basis for spares? What happens during a national crisis like New Orleans....and there are not enough parts on hand and the lead time for manufacturing them falls behind the demand?
OK, my Boeing 747 analogy was a bit of hyperbole. But how about this one?
Cessna takes in some O-2's and makes them ZERO time, not refurbished, 337's. According to what I reading is that any airframe manufacturer can take a clapped out airframe, inspect and repair and make a 10,000 hour airframe a zero time airframe.
Am I the only one that thinks this is bogus? If Bell wants to refurbish an airframe and sell it as such that's fine. But it is not a zero time airframe.
And on the engine, if I bring in my UH-1H airframe with a 703 installed and have Bell turn it into a Bell 210, the engine can be turned into a -17 with nothing more than a records check to insure it has the proper parts. This is what I have heard. If so I would like to have Lycoming do the same to one of my engines so I can sell it as a civilian engine.
Cessna takes in some O-2's and makes them ZERO time, not refurbished, 337's. According to what I reading is that any airframe manufacturer can take a clapped out airframe, inspect and repair and make a 10,000 hour airframe a zero time airframe.
Am I the only one that thinks this is bogus? If Bell wants to refurbish an airframe and sell it as such that's fine. But it is not a zero time airframe.
And on the engine, if I bring in my UH-1H airframe with a 703 installed and have Bell turn it into a Bell 210, the engine can be turned into a -17 with nothing more than a records check to insure it has the proper parts. This is what I have heard. If so I would like to have Lycoming do the same to one of my engines so I can sell it as a civilian engine.
Join Date: Mar 2005
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Cessna 337's? You could do it. Again you need new flying surfaces. But, it's not econimcal. Nobody is going to pay $800,000 for one. I have seen the pictures of the 210 and it looks new. Everything is replaced except good rivets.
On the -703 engine: They are only using a few cases on the engine, NONE of the rotating parts are used. They are all new. It would be a waste to send a 703. All of the unused parts are scrapped even if they are servicable.
Sas: The idea of the 210 is for Guard use only flying very few hours state side. The program is the same as the Navy TH-67. Parts are simple to purchase without all the big contracts. They can be purcased in small quantities.
On the -703 engine: They are only using a few cases on the engine, NONE of the rotating parts are used. They are all new. It would be a waste to send a 703. All of the unused parts are scrapped even if they are servicable.
Sas: The idea of the 210 is for Guard use only flying very few hours state side. The program is the same as the Navy TH-67. Parts are simple to purchase without all the big contracts. They can be purcased in small quantities.